Rinadi Axes, unexpectedly great.

DeadboxHero

DeadboxHero

Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
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I was checking out a Rinadi American boy's axe from Baryonyx after seeing videos of Benjamin a bladeforums member "fortytwoknives" swing the axe on YouTube. He runs a really cool site that sells this obsucre brand of axe from Italy that is very old world in appearance.

Like most Americans, I just wasn't interested at first because we have such a rich heritage of producing the pinnacle of axe design and technology that influenceed the world and help shape the contenient and these axes appeared to be unchanged from the 16th century old world Europe.

However something really piqued my interest.

I saw that this axe has a special steel.

"Silicon-manganese, spring steel at 58hrc"

This pushed me into purchasing this axe as well satisfying curiosity by exploring how the early trade axes performed.

I also ordered the "special finish" option for a few bucks more to have Benjamin sharpen the axe.

When it first arrived, It seemed very unusual. Honestly I didn't know how it would perform.
The bit was much longer then I expected.










But I was very much impressed by it's performance.





I'll go into details later.
 
Here's the edge after all the swinging


She held up great. I didn't hold back, I didn't expect this axe to do so well with such a thin bit at 58 hrc


 
There's a beech handle on there. Notice anything different about flex or grip-ability with this? Ugaldie has mentioned in his thread that competition choppers prefer Beech.
 
DeadboxHero said:
[YouTube]kfm73J_k094 [/YouTube]

This axe definitely challenged what I thought I knew about axes.

She swings great.
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I like that you put up video. For that, thanks.
The bit heavy polless unbalanced axe really rears its head wobbly in the felling action. Not a lot of felling testing nowadays. Understandably.
My observations. At the beginning you looked awkward using it. (And that says a lot to me. Because you did not look akward, and forced when using the tiny handled saddle axe, and I expected you to. Here, very much so.)Straight up that is how it looked. It took a good bite on limbing tasks. When you hopped up and started bucking I saw all I needed to see. It is a flat cheeked monstrosity that gets stuck and does not throw a chip well. I imagine it is exactly as good as the ancient European axes that the convex cheeked American felling axe replaced. Unlike the polless Basque axe that has evolved with cheek geometry that screams performance, this thing just screams "made as cheaply as possible".
 
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Woodcraft said:
I like that you put up video. For that, thanks.
The bit heavy polless unbalanced axe really rears its head wobbly in the felling action. Not a lot of felling testing nowadays. Understandably.
My observations. At the beginning you looked awkward using it. (And that says a lot to me. Because you did not look akward, and forced when using the tiny handled saddle axe, and I expected you to. Here, very much so.)Straight up that is how it looked. It took a good bite on limbing tasks. When you hopped up and started bucking I saw all I needed to see. It is a flat cheeked monstrosity that gets stuck and does not throw a chip well. I imagine it is exactly as good as the ancient European axes that the convex cheeked American felling axe replaced. Unlike the polless Basque axe that has evolved with cheek geometry that screams performance, this thing just screams "made as cheaply as possible".
Click to expand...

Interesting observations, thanks for sharing. I'd argue it feels great in use seemed to have much more effect then my Gransfors SFA. I'll have to swing more to really get the final verdict.

300six seamed very light, and comfortable. I enjoy the handle even though it doesn't have a swell what so ever.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Interesting observations, thanks for sharing. I'd argue it feels great in use seemed to have much more effect then my Gransfors SFA. I'll have to swing more to really get the final verdict.

.
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More effect as in depth of cut with equivalent force applied? I Imagine it would. It is thinner longer than the gb right? But having used a handful of axes how impressed are you with the Gransfors still? It is also flat sided. When measuring preformance there has to be a balance. If bucking is a measurement then depth is only one desirable factor correct? I personally want a balance between penitration, release(lack of sticking) and the axe to have enough cheek to toss the chip on its own, so to speak. If it is just a limbing, carving, hewing axe then well whatever. Thin flat axes slice through branches fine.Balance of head and head and handle are important. Even more so in my opinion if you are going to use the axe for felling. Hence here in America the double bit phenomenon. Balance and two blades to boot.
But you are correct, long term use reveals more flaws and likes than short use.
If it helps, and I am rambling I like to do a job as a test. Sometimes I fell, a lot of the time I just drop it with a saw but.......
I pick a tree of a decent size and type for the axe. I then limb and buck then split it. Doesnt have to be a monster, and taking days is fine. But by the end of the job I know exactly how I feel about an axe. For example, the Fulton Michigan pattern is a gd monster. Absolutely a dream. Does not stick when bucking oak, clears a chip for you like a waiter and penitration is acceptable and probably deeper than most would expect with its thick bit. And the Craftsman boys axe Is to light for hardwoods and is Ok on small softwood and does an ok job limbing, but you end up putting more Umph into it than you would have to with a bit more weight in the head. And the flat sided dayton collins homestead splits ok, sticks. Sticks bucking oak. Alot. It does not throw a chip. It is three and a half pounds on a 32 inch handle and it limbs like a dream. Point is those are the last three I tested/worked with and hung, and I know all that because of the "one tree" method.
Sorry for rambling. I do enjoy your videos.
 
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Woodcraft said:
I like that you put up video. For that, thanks.
The bit heavy polless unbalanced axe really rears its head wobbly in the felling action. Not a lot of felling testing nowadays. Understandably.
My observations. At the beginning you looked awkward using it. (And that says a lot to me. Because you did not look akward, and forced when using the tiny handled saddle axe, and I expected you to. Here, very much so.)Straight up that is how it looked. It took a good bite on limbing tasks. When you hopped up and started bucking I saw all I needed to see. It is a flat cheeked monstrosity that gets stuck and does not throw a chip well. I imagine it is exactly as good as the ancient European axes that the convex cheeked American felling axe replaced. Unlike the polless Basque axe that has evolved with cheek geometry that screams performance, this thing just screams "made as cheaply as possible".
Click to expand...

The first axe I have ever used was a German (or German style?) Berlin pattern axe on straight beechwood handle.
It is a European axe, with minimal poll and long bit.
It is not as “extreme” as the Rinaldi in question, but it is more of a European style axe than an American one.
Because of the bigger eye, it has more steel in the back of the axe head than one would expect it. This makes it more balanced than one would think just by looking it.
Also, the handle cross-section orients the grip, and when swung with some speed, there is not much wobble.

Yes, the American style axes are more balanced, no question about it.
However, most European axes today in production are not the medieval “monstrosities” shown in publications.
Yes, the convex cheek is better to throw chips, but the European axes are used with a different technique to fell trees, so they do not stick much.

An important thing to know about why these European patterns are still produced today in these patterns and style is to know about their typical use nowadays.
While they can be clearly used to fell trees, especially smaller ones, they are typically used for limbing and also splitting typical European firewood (beech and oak).
In Europe trees have been felled mostly with saws or chainsaws for the last century.

Beechwood is widely used for axe and striking tool handles in Europe, because it is a traditional wood, ash is scarce (so it is more expensive) and hickory had/has to bee imported from the U.S. It is not as strong as hickory and not as flexible as hickory and ash, but it gets the job done. Unlike oak, it is not splintery, and has a wonderful, smooth tactile feeling.
Its major drawbacks are that it moves more with humidity changes and if unattended, it is unavoidably attacked & damaged by wood boring beetles.

At the end I have to add, that I don’t own any Italian axes and have never purchased anything from FortyTwoBlades.
 
I would love to hear an explanation of this technique. As it has been explained to me it has just been excuses and making do with a clearly inferior tool for the job.
As far as "just limbing and splitting" clearly a good chunk of the axe using world is down to just that. And the result is flat sided axes that are cheap to produce both here and overseas, and the axe shaped hardware store crap that reminds us the axes made yesteryear in the us. That does not mean we should not point out the obvious flaws in design and shortcuts made by the manufacturers or nust have the intestinal fortitude to say " this axe will limb and work on the little stuff but dont go poking around some good size hardwoods or you will be hating life"
In realty what you just said echoes the exact claims made about European axes way back when. They do not cut it when working on good sized american trees. Was it Cornwallis? Who hired Massachusetts's men with American style axes because the European axes took forever and he did not have time for that crap:)
 
Great video! Looks like you're starting to figure out how it works. There's a bit of a learning period involved due to how different the overall design philosophy is.

I have Woodcraft on ignore, so I can't see what he's written, but I can see he's been posting here. It's worth noting that he harbors some bizarre grudge against me for reasons unknown, has no experience with poll-less axes, and has refused the offer to gain any experience with them when I've extended it previously. I'd take any of his observations on this with an enormous rock crystal of salt. He's argued about the presence of wobble in the past regarding Rinaldi axes, and fails to grasp that it'll only come into play with a straight handle when making horizontal cuts with one hand immediately below the head. The light weight of the axe and wide handle assist in resisting that action, and as soon as the top hand slides and converges with bottom hand the axe becomes self-balancing like the drum of a washing machine, as the end is free, instead of fixed. A handle with an offset neck eliminates that issue, but I'd only consider it of significant use if you're doing a lot of hand-sliding horizontal chops because influence on the axes alignment in downward strokes or where both hands are at the bottom of the handle is negligible, and non-existent when used one-handed.

Chopping with thin-bitted axes like these can look a bit different than ones with thicker bits due to the different distribution of the blow's energy between penetration and wedging. The chips just get narrower, but also deeper. It's worth noting that this particular model weighs just a scant 700g (about 1.5lb)

Edit to add: Now that I've posted this, you can probably expect some vitriolic response on his part. If anyone is curious about my past altercations with him, send me a PM and I can direct you to the publicly-viewable record of things as they've transpired, but have no desire to derail the thread or turn it into yet another foolish mess of bickering.
 
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300Six said:
There's a beech handle on there. Notice anything different about flex or grip-ability with this? Ugaldie has mentioned in his thread that competition choppers prefer Beech.
Click to expand...

I find that beech transmits a little more shock compared to ash, but is less likely to separate along the grain if the handle is subjected to accidental impacts. Between beech and ash I prefer the beech, but it's a minor preference.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Great video! Looks like you're starting to figure out how it works. There's a bit of a learning period involved due to how different the overall design philosophy is.

I have Woodcraft on ignore, so I can't see what he's written, but I can see he's been posting here. It's worth noting that he harbors some bizarre grudge against me for reasons unknown, has no experience with poll-less axes, and has refused the offer to gain any experience with them when I've extended it previously. I'd take any of his observations on this with an enormous rock crystal of salt. He's argued about the presence of wobble in the past regarding Rinaldi axes, and fails to grasp that it'll only come into play with a straight handle when making horizontal cuts with one hand immediately below the head. The light weight of the axe and wide handle assist in resisting that action, and as soon as the top hand slides and converges with bottom hand the axe becomes self-balancing like the drum of a washing machine, as the end is free, instead of fixed. A handle with an offset neck eliminates that issue, but I'd only consider it of significant use if you're doing a lot of hand-sliding horizontal chops because influence on the axes alignment in downward strokes or where both hands are at the bottom of the handle is negligible, and non-existent when used one-handed.

Chopping with thin-bitted axes like these can look a bit different than ones with thicker bits due to the different distribution of the blow's energy between penetration and wedging. The chips just get narrower, but also deeper. It's worth noting that this particular model weighs just a scant 700g (about 1.5lb)
Click to expand...

I do not like you for this very reason here^. You are a liar, and will say anything to make a sale.
For example. You grind the bits so thin on your axes they "chip at first" but they stop after a while when the bit gets thicker as you work it back. That is your exact claim 42. (That says it all)I question your actual experience. As far as my use of, here is the first lie out of your mouth for the day, I have experience with both the dane axe and the Francesca.
And to be very clear, we live in the same state. I offered for you to come to my woodlot and buck comparing one of your axes to an American axe.(Your claim was one wasnt better than the other, just different. My claim was that the American felling axe was better at felling and bucking.) On both softwood and hardwood. Provided by me. And I would record it and post it online. You then said you would only show up if I used your axe? You straight up backed out, then tried to threaten me, repeatedly anytime my opinion differed from yours on another forum where you are a mod. I had to report you becouse you became ridiculous and cowardly.
You are all talk and google. No actual experience when it comes to using an axe. As is shown by your washing machine example and lack of understanding of what happens to an unbalance axe upon striking the wood.


Edit, and the issue started when you posted your "paper" on axe balance. I questioned your picture and claim of the point of balance of the American axe. You could provide no pictures of you actually testing one. You just claimed the "dot" was outside the head and handle. I then dropped a plumbline on the two cheapest American axes, a boys and a Michigan (and put the pictures online) you can get your hands on and ta da! The point ran right down the inside of the handle, not outside like you claimed. You then argued in circles, threatened me some more, and posted a picture of you with a german axe after I brought it up. I even wrote to council because I believe you just made up the point of balance on the axe you showed a picture of and I wanted them to know. So is that the actual point? I still do not know. Do "most American axes" as you claim balance there. No. That is a false claim. I can drop a line on every single American axe I own and you are wrong every single time. And that makes me question the reasons you would make such a claim. If not to further your own agenda or to make your product seem less bad then why?
 
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Agent_H said:
I like DBH's posts :)
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Me too. Wish I had a wood pile like that. It's all smallish pines and scrub oaks in my current location. Not much opportunity to play around with stuff, unlike my last place. Used to have all sorts of beech to work with, but I'm in bush scythe central right now. :D It's nice seeing such a wide range of different styles being able to be directly compared by the same guy.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Edit to add: Now that I've posted this, you can probably expect some vitriolic response on his part. If anyone is curious about my past altercations with him, send me a PM and I can direct you to the publicly-viewable record of things as they've transpired, but have no desire to derail the thread or turn it into yet another foolish mess of bickering.
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Another example of the type of person you are. You attack me, not what I have actually said in this thread. You claim I am on Ignore. Then pretend to take the high road and not want to derail the thread.
It was to late for that when unprovoked you went all ad homenim on me. It is funny that you are "ignoring me" but still feel the need to run your mouth about me unprovoked. That is cowardly. But you know that.
Just like when I politely asked you why you only use small green wood pine for showing off the "ability of your axes. You claimed to not have any oak or maple you wanted to cut down. I offered to send you some. Lol. You live in Maine. Grow up 42.
 
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Calm down Woodcraft. 42 revels in proffering youthful enthusiastic opinions (I do believe he's done an awful lot of reading, along with some chopping) on anything and everything, and at the drop of a hat. He doesn't have 20,500 posts to his credit for no reason! Through his, your's and many more contributions this forum continues to be lively, which is a real blessing, because admiration of chopping tools, to most folks, is the equivalent of watching paint dry or grass grow. It's perfectly OK to agree to disagree.
 
Woodcraft said:
It took a good bite on limbing tasks. When you hopped up and started bucking I saw all I needed to see. It is a flat cheeked monstrosity that gets stuck and does not throw a chip well. I imagine it is exactly as good as the ancient European axes that the convex cheeked American felling axe replaced.
Click to expand...

That's what I saw, too. Just what we would expect from a thinned cheeked axe. The size and shape does look handy for carving and shaping. It's very sticky as a bucker or splitter. But it does those things well enough to stand in if your primary tasks were more detail oriented. I don't think an American style boys axe gives up as much in carving as this axe gives up in bucking, limbing and splitting.

It does appear to be sharp and hold an edge well.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Me too. Wish I had a wood pile like that. It's all smallish pines and scrub oaks in my current location.
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Looks like he's working with Oregon big leaf maple. I have a lot of that here in Maple Valley. It's good wood. Chops well green, splits fairly easily (but not so easy as alder), burns great and adds a nice sweetness to meat in the smoker. It also makes a fine syrup though you need 1/2 again more sap than you would from a sugar maple (I know, I've made 3 quarts of syrup this winter.)
 
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