Rinadi Axes, unexpectedly great.

There's a bit of a learning curve involved with adjusting to the very different stylistic approach of the tool, and I'm still improving on my strategies of application with them myself. Just like swinging an American axe, you don't learn it in a day. I remember when I first managed to get my hands on a 700g Falci "Calabria" pattern I got kind of thrown for a loop by how it felt, but could immediately tell the potential it had. Using simple tools can be an odd experience, given how much of the performance depends on the user. Heck--I could (and have) go into lengthy discussion of the right way to use a shovel.
 
300Six said:
Calm down Woodcraft. 42 revels in proffering youthful enthusiastic opinions (I do believe he's done an awful lot of reading, along with some chopping) on anything and everything, and at the drop of a hat. He doesn't have 20,500 posts to his credit for no reason! Through his, your's and many more contributions this forum continues to be lively, which is a real blessing, because admiration of chopping tools, to most folks, is the equivalent of watching paint dry or grass grow. It's perfectly OK to agree to disagree.
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I probably need a nap.
 
I've handled one of these (not from 42, but I plan on utilizing some of my tax money on one) and I have to say I like the design. They handle kind of similarly to the Basque axe I own, which I love to death. The handles are wider to kind of "lock" your hands in place (that's what it feels like to me at least) to eliminate the wobble. American axes fly straighter but I feel like I transfer more direct force with the poll-less axe.
 
Square_peg said:
That's what I saw, too. Just what we would expect from a thinned cheeked axe. The size and shape does look handy for carving and shaping. It's very sticky as a bucker or splitter. But it does those things well enough to stand in if your primary tasks were more detail oriented. I don't think an American style boys axe gives up as much in carving as this axe gives up in bucking, limbing and splitting.

It does appear to be sharp and hold an edge well.
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I agree, maby DBH can slide his hand up and try some carving with it. I wonder if the distance from handle to bit is a little too long, and may effect carving.
 
I have three of the Rinaldis that I picked up from Baryonyx, the two Calabria hand axes and the carpenter's hawk. All are excellent tools. The triangular handles on the two hand axes seemed a bit unusual at first, but they do keep the axe oriented in your hand. The carpenter's hawk is probably my favorite. I tend to grab it first when I want something hatchet-size, especially if I want something with a poll.
 
Woodcraft said:
I probably need a nap.
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Me too! Windbags don't get the same attention for (and from) me that posts of advice by someone such as Old_Axeman get. But it does take awhile to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff and in the meantime you try to soak it all in and smile.
 
DBH,

Good job. These types of axes are literally 1000s of years old. They do work :). I haven't tried rinaldi axes, but I got interested in flat cheeked designs from a historical perspective, and the sticking/throwing chips issue seems overblown to me. Yes, sticking is increased, but penetration is better as well. I guess my current assessment would be that flat cheeks are inferior to convex ones in medium to large felling or bucking tasks, but superior in smaller wood and for limbing. As an all around axe, I'll take one with flat or thinly convexed cheeks. I don't think any of this is accidental: convexed cheeks appeared in response to the need to fell big timber and split large rounds, whereas most of Europe for hundreds, even thousands, of years and most of North America now is filled with second or third or whatever generation timber that do not require excessive convexing of the cheeks.... You can judge for yourself!
 
DBH started this thread to share his experience and he never claimed that the Rinaldi axes are superior to the American axes.
His posts were perceived by a few members here and also were interpreted as mere promotional advertisements for FTB’s business.

I have immense respect for Old Axeman, but as far as I am concerned, his disagreement with FTB regarding the value of European axe designs is a separate issue from the discussion of the Rinaldi axe DBH posted in this thread.

I Like BG_Farmer’s post, he clearly has used both types of axe design and speaks from experience.:thumbup:
This the value of this forum: you can learn about new things, you can try them out yourself and then form your own opinion based on your experience.
You can at the end agree or disagree with the opinions of others, but there is no need and no use to attack others just because they have a different opinion.

I came here to learn, and not to observe or get into flame wars. :(
I am a European who has lived for the last 17 years in the US, mostly in the Midwest and now in Virginia.
I earn my bread as a scientist who values reproducible experience over brief observations.
We all get passionate about our believes.
There are also the fact of national or regional pride, which combined with family and wider cultural traditions tend to define strongly our opinions.
I have never held in my hands a true American (“Yankee”) type of axe before I came to America.
Once I did it was not difficult to feel the advantages of the design.
I am in love with it now. :D

In the same time I don’t think that it is superior to flat checked European axes in all aspects though.
There is one thing “to see all what is needed” from a video observing the initial uses of a new tool by a person who is learning to adjust or modify earlier muscle memory to a new tool, and there is another to use it for years.

Europe has been exposed to and has been influenced by the American axes for over a century now.
The reason traditional designs are still made, sold and used there is, that besides the tradition, they do work well with the local woods and the specific tasks they are used for.
In my own experience (and you are welcome to disagree with me) the American felling axe is not superior to a traditional European design still in use for limbing or splitting beech or oak wood.
That’s is my opinion and I am sticking to it. :D :p
 
This axe is the "American boys axe" isnt it? That is the impression I am under. So it draws the comparison itself. That said, at $60 it needs to be directly compared to the Council tool $30 actual American boys axe. Then if It can do anything better it could be compared to a vintage boys axe with a high centerline. I am willing to purchase and send a Council Boys axe to DBH if he wants to do a video comparison, but I want it back after ;)
I keep hearing about this learning curve to use a flat cheeked polless axe. Yet there is no video of anyone who has mastered it. And I have looked. Not one. Including the peolle who sell them. All awkward. I have come to the conclusion that is because it is awkward to use. In a way that you will never be able to walk up to a tree and take a big full from the hips swing like you can with an American felling axe. And that, is because it is inferior. And unbalanced. And that will rear its head again and again in use.
As far as splitting and limbing, I know better on the former and doubt in anyway that is meaningful or at all on the latter.
 
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littleknife said:
I am a European who has lived for the last 17 years in the US, mostly in the Midwest and now in Virginia.
I earn my bread as a scientist who values reproducible experience over brief observations.
We all get passionate about our believes.
There are also the fact of national or regional pride, which combined with family and wider cultural traditions tend to define strongly our opinions.
I have never held in my hands a true American (“Yankee”) type of axe before I came to America.
Once I did it was not difficult to feel the advantages of the design.
I am in love with it now. :D

In the same time I don’t think that it is superior to flat checked European axes in all aspects though.
There is one thing “to see all what is needed” from a video observing the initial uses of a new tool by a person who is learning to adjust or modify earlier muscle memory to a new tool, and there is another to use it for years.

Europe has been exposed to and has been influenced by the American axes for over a century now.
The reason traditional designs are still made, sold and used there is, that besides the tradition, they do work well with the local woods and the specific tasks they are used for.
In my own experience (and you are welcome to disagree with me) the American felling axe is not superior to a traditional European design still in use for limbing or splitting beech or oak wood.
That’s is my opinion and I am sticking to it. :D :p
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^Agreed. And I've never asserted that the Euro axes are inherently superior to American designs, but merely that they are an equally useful tool that uses different design principles and functional prioritization of features to get the job done. Yet folks seem to keep thinking that I'm bagging on the American approach or promoting the Euro designs as superior. Simply not the case. I do find myself preferring my Italian axes over most of the other axes in my arsenal, which includes several American/American-style axes, among others. But that's because of how the prioritization of features and design considerations aligns with my needs. In general, I find the Italian axes to not be quite so fast as American patterns, but they're not far behind; by means of their lighter weight for equal penetration I'm able to set a pace and keep at it for greater periods because I can more easily get work accomplished while staying within the aerobic zone.

From what I hear tell from persons who have lived or visited there, Italians generally don't like to work any harder than they have to, and their tools are designed around efficiency of labor in terms of fatigue (force input/product output) rather than in terms of time/output that Americans tend to approach things from. In the Italian perspective the time spent is less important than the comfort of the user during the period of use required to get the work done, while American axes (and us Americans ourselves) tend to value the speed of the tool as more important than how the exertion feels, short of that which interferes with accomplishing the goal. This is not to say that time is completely unimportant to Italian axe designers or that the comfort in use is completely unimportant to American designers, but rather a matter of which aspect receives greater emphasis. I've had people tell me they sold their Gransfors axes after using Rinaldis (up to 4 folks by most recent count) so I'm not the only one that finds them pleasant to use. They're not going to be perfect for everyone, either, and some are bound to find American styled axes best for their needs. Nothing wrong with more choices, though. :)
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
In general, I find the Italian axes to not be quite so fast as American patterns, but they're not far behind; by means of their lighter weight for equal penetration I'm able to set a pace and keep at it for greater periods because I can more easily get work accomplished while staying within the aerobic zone.

From what I hear tell from persons who have lived or visited there, Italians generally don't like to work any harder than they have to, and their tools are designed around efficiency of labor in terms of fatigue (force input/product output) rather than in terms of time/output that Americans tend to approach things from.
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OK. Let me get this straight. The less efficient tool makes the work easier because you're not able to accomplish the work as efficiently. That's interesting. My American axes have never forced my pace. I find I'm able to slow down to whatever pace I find comfortable.

And I also don't like to work harder than necessary. This is why I choose the most efficient tool for the job.
 
Also, an octagonalized handle gives you as much or more control than a trapezoidal handle. Combine an octagon and a good swell and now you have a great axe handle.
 
Italy is not recognized as having (or developed) a wood base architecture as opposed to NA. Their tools were developed for their specific needs and for their type of wood. Trying to say that ones developed their tools for "lavoro ma non troppo" ( work, but not too much) and others did it otherwise, it doesn't hold water for me. Evolution in anything always comes with better products for the task - whatever that task it is. And laziness is what drives the evolution, not "work is leisure" attitude. A lazy guy will invent something when he needs it and is not around. A normal guy will use the tool he has at hand, doesn't matter how good for what he needs is - or will ask his lazy neighbor for his tool.
 
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Square_peg said:
OK. Let me get this straight. The less efficient tool makes the work easier because you're not able to accomplish the work as efficiently. That's interesting. My American axes have never forced my pace. I find I'm able to slow down to whatever pace I find comfortable.

And I also don't like to work harder than necessary. This is why I choose the most efficient tool for the job.
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No, completely incorrect...there's are different ways to measure efficiency and you either have entirely misunderstood what I've written (and I think you're smarter than that) or you've deliberately misrepresented my statement...
 
Derzelas said:
Italy is not recognized as having (or developed) a wood base architecture as opposed to NA. Their tools were developed for their specific needs and for their type of wood. Trying to say that ones developed their tools for "lavoro ma non troppo" ( work, but not too much) and others did it otherwise, it doesn't hold water for me. Evolution in anything always comes with better products for the task - whatever that task it is. And laziness is what drives the evolution, not "work is leisure" attitude. A lazy guy will invent something when he needs it and is not around. A normal guy will use the tool he has at hand, doesn't matter how good for what he needs is - or will ask his lazy neighbor for his tool.
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Yeah, that's not what I said.

Input energy and the output product are not linear in their relationship. Depending on your balance of priorities your optimum specifications for the tool involved will vary, sometimes by a significant degree. In this case, a possible analogy would be one of sprinting vs. long distance running. Frequency, intensity, time, and setting have a big impact on the optimum specifications for hand tools.
 
Square_peg said:
Also, an octagonalized handle gives you as much or more control than a trapezoidal handle. Combine an octagon and a good swell and now you have a great axe handle.
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When have you used one? Inquiring minds want to know. :)
 
Square_peg said:
OK. Let me get this straight. The less efficient tool makes the work easier because you're not able to accomplish the work as efficiently. That's interesting. My American axes have never forced my pace. I find I'm able to slow down to whatever pace I find comfortable.

And I also don't like to work harder than necessary. This is why I choose the most efficient tool for the job.
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Apparently it is more efficient to take 20 wacks at a green pine with a flat cheeked axe than to do the job in three with an axe you do not sell:)
 
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