RMJ Tactical prices (wtf?)

[craytab]

Craytab, I was having a bit of back and forth with Danke42. I said "kinda... but not" which was a poor choice of words. My joke about 1-armed CNC machine operators was directed at Danke42, since he implied it takes two hands to make these, and I brought up the possibility it could be done with one hand and an automated machine. I think I'm the only one who thought that was clever.

Anyway, I appreciate civility in a forum, but I also believe non-political/religious/sexual content debate, especially about value on a forum I imagine is inhabited by a lot of young guys just starting out, is valuable in itself. Let's keep the discussion going, and I'll take a break from it.

So, Craytab, shall we BURY THE HATCHET?

No hatchet to be buried. Once you get some more time here under your belt you will see that these "x is overpriced" threads get contentious quickly. Taking the matter seriously is important, especially when you are new, or people won't take you seriously.

So enjoy the forum and read more. Get a feel. There is a whole ax subforum where it is mostly filled with far less expensive stuff if that is your interest.

 

[Burke]

If we look at similar products, they all seem to be in the general range of 400 to 500 give or take. RMJ, Winkler, Bawidamann, Red Rock, Hardcore Hardware of Australia--they all make the modern "tactical" tomahawks and they're all in the same general price range.
Way I look at it is that's just what the market decided is reasonable for that particular type of product.

I think this is pretty key when it comes to a pricing discussion (although RMJ makes Bawidamann...but I'd also add Busse and some of the mid-tech smaller makers like Helm Forge). If there was an opportunity to build top quality US-made tomahawks with a high-end warranty etc for $200ish and make a decent profit, somebody would be doing it...

 

[AntCaps]

if you dont like the price you dont have to buy one, I have a Kestrel and i love it its very well thought out its made well the scabbard is superior to any other ive seen or used. There are tactical hawks of every shape and price on the market it seems pointless to complain about the prices of tools and weapons that sell so well and have such a reputation.

 

[palonej]

Personally, I get a kick when anyone starts talking about pricing. With absolutely no clue of manufacturing, designing, testing etc costs, it is impossible. But hey, the steel is cheap!!
The plumbing analogy is also ridiculous. Fixing a leaky faucet is pretty easy. Try installing a boiler.
You’ll need a ton of tools you don’t have and will most assuredly mess it up. The plumber will then cost a LOT more.

 

[buffalo01]

$100 for a 3.3 inch trainer fixed blade... thats a $100 for a CNCed piece of aluminum with no handles.... Um I know custom makers that sell actual functional knives for that much... made by hand.
That seems a little crazy to me.

 

[Leftytwogunz]

... made on demand by the world's greatest bladesmith .

You are just continuously showing how little you know about this subject. Did you just find out about RMJ the same month you joined bladeforums, Feb 2018?

As I said, for years, these guys couldn't even keep up with demand. People waited months and months for items to be built. They hired more people, bought more machinery.
They may be the most prevalent tomahawk manufacturer during the GWOT, 2001 - present.

They grew that following to include more models, break into knives, jewelry and recently opened a leather shop. So, you can do it bigger/better/less cost? Like craytab said,
post the pics. I say less typing more grinding, because you got a long way to go.

 

[b00n]

You are just continuously showing how little you know about this subject. Did you just find out about RMJ the same month you joined bladeforums, Feb 2018?

As I said, for years, these guys couldn't even keep up with demand. People waited months and months for items to be built. They hired more people, bought more machinery.
They may be the most prevalent tomahawk manufacturer during the GWOT, 2001 - present.

They grew that following to include more models, break into knives, jewelry and recently opened a leather shop. So, you can do it bigger/better/less cost? Like craytab said,
post the pics. I say less typing more grinding, because you got a long way to go.

And take wages into account, it's all speculative of course, but I don't mind spending a bit more if I know that some of the cost trickles down to fair wages that hover above minimum wage is. Just look at the cost of a a real Spyderco vs a Chinese Copy. If we assume materials are identical, the copy is like 70% and more at times. Where do you think the savings are made? Does that make a real Spyderco overpriced? And yes, I know there is a bit more to it, but I just don't like blanket statements ala "Oh they charge XXX $ for this thing, it has to be overpriced." What did you pay for your fridge? What do you think actual manufacturing costs are for it? What about your car? I have a good idea what the cost for a lot of luxury cars is when it's out the door from the manufacturer, the dealer makes crap on the majority.
A more reasonable way of asking would be "How does RMJ justify charging X Dollars for this tomahawk/knife/morale patch?" because it's far more inquisitive and objective.

/Edit: To Clarify, I agree with you Leftytwogunz , merely elaborating on your point

 

[Amurr]

They make a good product and they are a great company IMHO. Is it worth 4x the CRKT version. It’s not 4x better. But it’s cheaper than a winkler, and as in most things that last 20% of quality is the most expensive part.

 

[Danke42]

Coincidental I had a meeting tonight at a place that does machine work for the oil patch.

Nothing about running CNC machines is easy or cheap. You need to really expend a lot of skull sweat to build the parts. And while once you get the process dialed in an right it's repeatable but it's never simple. You have to build jigs and fittings and even your own tools.

You're not the first greenhorns to march in here and start crowing about how overpriced something is and you won't be the last. But maybe you can educate yourselves on price vs. cost, vs. worth, vs. value. Given time you'll see much more expensive knives and tools than these hawks that at the same time are less practical. And at that point you can recognize that while you don't want or need a pearl handled jewel emblazoned pocket knife that someone is selling lots of the best thing to do is to just weed your own garden instead of stamping your feet at the perceived injustice.

 

[chambelona59]

Article "Tomahawks and War":
http://www.knifecollector.net/TomahawksAndWar.html

The late Peter Lagana, father of the 'modern/contemporary' Combat tomahawk 1960's:

Info on Peter LaGana (from Knifecenter):

"Peter LaGana's Vietnam Tomahawk was one of the cutlery industry's most significant contributions to the equipment arsenal of servicemen in the Vietnam War, as it incorporated tremendous utility, unparalleled close quarter battle (CQB) functionality, and true American legacy in a single offering.
Thousands of Vietnam Tomahawks worked the jungles of Southeast Asia from 1967 through the war's end, saving lives and serving their owners with silent faithfulness in combat.
While tens of thousands of reproductions from a host of manufacturers have been made over the past 30 years, not one has given proper tribute to its original design or, more importantly, proper reward to its original designer, Peter LaGana."

Three original Vietnam era Peter LaGana Hawks:

The ATVT: Lagana Vietnam Tactical Combat Tomahawk produced by the 'American Tomahawk Company'.

In Iran:

Ranger with his tomahawk in Afganistan maker unknown:

Much respect for Ryan Johnson of RMJ, well studied in the history of the tomahawk.

My 'Ranger Renegade' made by Justin Gingrich (former Army Ranger), no longer made, this one I jumped on when it turned up on eBay about 4 years ago, now impossible to find one unless someone lets one go.
http://themartialist.net/rangerrenegade/
I believe Justin is mainly involved with his GTI knife company now and no longer making Hawks.
https://www.gingrichtactical.com/

One of my favorite RMJ videos demonstrating their Hawks 'can opening/breaching' abilities:

 

[DeadboxHero]

I'm kinda messing with you, but also not. Taking a step back, this is just a discussion about expensive high-end tomahawks, of all things. Fun hobby, but meaningless in the grander scheme. Please don't bash your head.

My inexpert summary opinion, having several years experience with benchtop machine tools and recent limited experience making my own knives, is that these are great tomahawks, but not $500 great. It's one of those things like basic plumbing and electrical work that once you learn it (and you can, because it's not rocket science), you shake your head in disbelief that you ever spent as much as you did on the pro's services.

Get out of the armchair and make tomahawks then.
RMJ is ACTUALLY making them and putting food on the table doing it. Not as a hobby or a fun weekend project.

He makes them.
If CNC is so easy then do it. You have two arms so it should be twice as easy. Go to community college. Learn. Go buy the tools.
Be humbled.


Just because you can make yourself spegetti doesn't mean your a four star chef.
Just because you can buy spegetti frozen from a box doesn't mean it's the same at a four star restaurant.

These threads pop up all the time.

It's guys complaining about expensive wine when all they need is a 6 pack of bud.

It's the guy with the 1986 toyota camry complaining about sports cars.

It's the guy complaining about buying steel when the cost of iron and carbon is so cheap.

If your happy being a Mr frugle DIY guy so be it, But life is short, money is cheap.

 

[AntCaps]

$100 for a 3.3 inch trainer fixed blade... thats a $100 for a CNCed piece of aluminum with no handles.... Um I know custom makers that sell actual functional knives for that much... made by hand.
That seems a little crazy to me.

Those makers dont have the overhead RMJ does, staff, the shop, the many machines, the warranty. it all boils down and factors into the price. Plus every second those CNC machines are spending on trainers that are at the low spectrum of the RMJ price scale they could be spending on the high cost items. They make them because people wanted them and the price reflects the time and resources going into them.
Value is not equal to the sum of the parts or material.
and again no ones making you buy anything they sell.

 

[Danke42]

Get out of the armchair and make tomahawks then.
RMJ is ACTUALLY making them and putting food on the table doing it. Not as a hobby or a fun weekend project.

He makes them.
If CNC is so easy then do it. You have two arms so it should be twice as easy. Go to community college. Learn. Go buy the tools.
Be humbled.


Just because you can make yourself spegetti doesn't mean your a four star chef.
Just because you can buy spegetti frozen from a box doesn't mean it's the same at a four star restaurant.

These threads pop up all the time.

It's guys complaining about expensive wine when all they need is a 6 pack of bud.

It's the guy with the 1986 toyota camry complaining about sports cars.

It's the guy complaining about buying steel when the cost of iron and carbon is so cheap.

If your happy being a Mr frugle DIY guy so be it, But life is short, money is cheap.

I'm pretty sure that a person who can't figure out how to post pictures on the internet would have no problems setting up and running a 5 axis mill and then heat treating the end product. I mean the thing has to come with instructions right?

 

[shinyedges]

Good to see so many experts out educating people.

 

[shinyedges]

One is a 5 axis lathe the other is a 5 axis mill. 50 to 60 hours a week setting up, programming, running, rinse and repeat.

I have a decent idea on manufacturing processes. Just because something is cnc machined doesn't make it cost 500.00.

That said many other factors do come in which I have brought up and listed in the past. In the end, the product is quality.. obviously I have bought 3 hawks from them, 1 directly from them.

I still feel his knife prices are high for what went in to them. But hey, I probably have no clue what it takes to make anything with a cnc machine.

 

[jceckrosh]

That maker unknown 'hawk in Afghanistan looks a lot like a Mark McCoun 'hawk.

 

[Danke42]

One is a 5 axis lathe the other is a 5 axis mill. 50 to 60 hours a week setting up, programming, running, rinse and repeat.

I have a decent idea on manufacturing processes. Just because something is cnc machined doesn't make it cost 500.00.

That said many other factors do come in which I have brought up and listed in the past. In the end, the product is quality.. obviously I have bought 3 hawks from them, 1 directly from them.

I still feel his knife prices are high for what went in to them. But hey, I probably have no clue what it takes to make anything with a cnc machine.

The typical argument is that if something comes out of a machine it should be very cheap. Because you know; machine doesn't require any workers.

 

[shinyedges]

The typical argument is that if something comes out of a machine it should be very cheap. Because you know; machine doesn't require any workers.

Obviously that is a silly argument, on the contrary it needs people, smart competent people. That doesn't change charging more because you know people will pay it.. and there isn't anything wrong with asking a price that people will pay.

 

[b00n]

Well in all fairness CNC'ing is super easy. As soon you're done programming everything and setting it up and press start that is.

 

[palonej]

The typical argument is that if something comes out of a machine it should be very cheap. Because you know; machine doesn't require any workers.

Of course!! No maintenance, tooling, qualified techs and the power required is free too!!
Plus the initial cost of machine, install, programming and running the required power to make the bitch start up!
But hey, the steel used in those durn Hawks is cheap!!