RMJ Tactical prices (wtf?)

So that's a no then? Lol. I am not Ed or tracker Dan or even a leo or fireman. I have exactly zero need for a tactical hawk. I don't breach shit and if I needed to Id use a crowbar and or a maul. If you do truly need a hawk then I suspect the tool is worth five or six times more than what he charges.

Tactical hawks to me are almost as silly as Emerson knives or chasing the next best super steel.

Yes I am sure it's a fine tool and there is value in a good warranty and a well made product. But let's be honest a tactical hawk is a lot like a go pro camera - you buy it because everybody wants to think they are badass. It's an easy sell.
 
gazz98 said:
I've been encouraged to try to make a tomahawk based on this thread.

Just let me finish my beer first...
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DeadboxHero said:
Bahaha the RMJ challenge, Hold my beer
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Just wait till you see what I have in the works. :D
Got the steel yesterday...need my shoulder to heal a bit first, and to get a forging day planned.
But it's gonna be epic on a Mega-Smatchet level...just in a breaching tool format. ;)
 
stabman said:
Just wait till you see what I have in the works. :D
Got the steel yesterday...need my shoulder to heal a bit first, and to get a forging day planned.
But it's gonna be epic on a Mega-Smatchet level...just in a breaching tool format. ;)
Click to expand...
Looking forward to this one.
 
Ryanol said:
So that's a no then? Lol. I am not Ed or tracker Dan or even a leo or fireman. I have exactly zero need for a tactical hawk. I don't breach shit and if I needed to Id use a crowbar and or a maul. If you do truly need a hawk then I suspect the tool is worth five or six times more than what he charges.

Tactical hawks to me are almost as silly as Emerson knives or chasing the next best super steel.

Yes I am sure it's a fine tool and there is value in a good warranty and a well made product. But let's be honest a tactical hawk is a lot like a go pro camera - you buy it because everybody wants to think they are badass. It's an easy sell.
Click to expand...

Ask some older guys who put in time in Vietnam as well as younger guys who put in time in both Iraq and Afganistan whether the hawks they had with them were "silly".

"you buy it because everybody wants to think they are badass. It's an easy sell."

Young Man, you obviously are uninformed.
 
As for RMJ prices, sure they look high at first glance, but not out of line with comparable products.
Plus, you have to figure how they cover wages, overhead, and get some profit (it ain't a charity, right?).

I've got a few things on the go, starting to accumulate materials and checking the prices of various things, and it's hard to figure out pricing when it's only one person involved.
If you figure trying to pay even minimum wage to workers, having a production facility of any sort, taxes, accountants, and all that crap, damn!

People who don't see why prices on things are what they are should try and do it themselves.
At the very least, honestly run through all the things needed to put out a product even close to what they're looking at, and how much they would have to sell it for to pay themselves even minimum wage...or how many units they would have to sell (and how many workers or machines THAT would require, etc).
 
Nader393 said:
Thanks chris26, for the thoughtful reply. Absolutely correct, racing cars is expensive. Especially paying someone to build them. I started out doing that, and was repeatedly disappointed by multiple shops that nickel and dimed me on work that couldn't be done to my standards on a reasonable time frame. So I started collecting tools, 90% of which are Harbor Freight or other Chinese, BTW, and learned how to do things on my own. Now I do all work myself, and my biggest operating costs are race entry fees, race gas, and diesel for my truck to haul everything to the track and back. Still expensive!

Also, thanks for bringing up tools. Like I said, a vast majority of mine started out as HF. The mill and lathe I just used to make my current knives and a lot of race car and race motorcycle parts are Chinese. What tools I found were most useful, I would replace with quality American tools I would find at garage sales or on eBay. Used. I've also learned that some Chinese tools are great, as long as you use domestic abrasives and blades on them.

Speaking more on tools, let me bring up this comparison. A tomahawk or hatchet is very similar to a hammer in design and function. For both applications, there are cheap foreign versions that get the job done as well as the very best domestic examples that cost much more. I had to look this up, because I don't work much with wood, but the best framing hammer you can buy is an American-made Martinez M-1, which BTW, is made of Titanium. Cost? $220. And this is a tool that can actually earn you money and put food on your table. Another tool example: Snap-On Dual 80 3/8" ratcheting wrench. The best you can buy, American-made to last a lifetime, beautifully crafted of excellent materials, multiple precision-fitting moving parts, and again, can earn you money to support your family. Cost? $80. (I don't have one, BTW. Mine is an early '70's Snap-on as part of a set I got at a garage sale a few years ago.)

Look, I'm not denying that RMJ makes a great product (scale fasteners notwithstanding :)). I'm just, not really surprised, but given pause that they get away with charging as much as they do without more backlash. As Ryanol alluded to, they have great marketing, especially if you can associate yourself with the military establishment. Then your product is golden. My take is that if you can afford it without depriving yourself, and more importantly, your family, of their needs, then by all means go for it. And congratulations on your success in life, and have fun with your excellent tomahawk or knife. Again, I don't mean to rile up some of the fans with my "emperor has no clothes" take on it. I do enjoy the discussion and think it would be helpful to guide some of the younger enthusiasts in their purchasing decisions.
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A well thought out response! A couple of things to consider...when you.mentiomed your disappoinment in the shops that charged you an inordinate sum of money to do the work that led to your doing all of it on your own now....what would you charge me to do the same work on my car? Now, throw in advertising, insurance, keeping the lights on and the initial investment and continual upgrade for tooling and r&d to grow your company/service and now calculate the cost. I can start to see where the costs.would climb. But.....to distill all of this to one point....if Ryan's products were.not worth the money, folks would not pay it. You can have all of the flashiest ads, tv commercials and billboards out there for a product....if it is crap, folks will not buy it. Perhaps once....but in this day and age with reviews so readily available.online....probably.not even once! Not to mention repeat business. For example....you mentioned Snap On tools....would you buy them if they were crap but had a sweet commercial and/or billboard? I'd wager not. Their reputation is Sterling and has led to their tools being highly sought after for a very long time now! Ryan's products sell at the price point that the market, his reputation and the quality of his product will bear. I wish you the best as well!
 
chambelona59 said:
Ask some older guys who put in time in Vietnam as well as younger guys who put in time in both Iraq and Afganistan whether the hawks they had with them were "silly".

"you buy it because everybody wants to think they are badass. It's an easy sell."

Young Man, you obviously are uninformed.
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Heh I am not a veteran. I've spoken with a couple of folks that are/were about their gear. Each of them told me that weight is the biggest concern and that things they thought they'd use like big knives got left behind. My grandfather told me that back in world war 2 this went so far as gas masks as he and other guys in his unit thought if it got that bad they probably weren't or didn't want to make it out.

I have however seen combat marketing exploited very well. Hell I even own an AR myself. Don't shoot it much but I am willing to admit that I bought it because it is badass.

I am intrigued now however. How did you utilize your hawk in the desert or vietnam?

Like I said, if you have an actual need for them I don't doubt they are priceless. My statements are more about the fact the price and demand are so high is about marketing. More of them sit in closets or bugout bags waiting to be used than actually doing bad ass shit day in and day out. That's because they've been marketed well. Btw "word of mouth" is marketing. Shit that story about Ed with the Winkler probably sold twenty or thirty hawks.

In America especially we have a hard time distinguishing between needs and wants(marketing) - it's clearly evident by how many storage unit developments exist.

Buying something because you want it is fine and lots of us justify it buy saying something like "that way I'll have it, or buy once cry once" type statements invented by marketers.
 
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DeadboxHero said:
Cool, get it done, sheath too. This will be a fun part of the discussion about how much goes into a knife and how much is marketing. When your done. I'll be brutally honest, but fair In my judgement. So prove yourself. I can tell you like the challenge.
How about a test of your knife as well? Share with us what you decided on heat treatment. Show us what geometry you chose and why.

All good fun, all good learning for all.
Engaging in content is more enjoyable then argument and leads to greater understanding and perspective.

Whether we argee or disagree at the end doesn't matter you still learn and get motivated to make a knife.
Ready? GO!
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Thanks, Deadboxhero, I would really value your objective feedback on my finished knives! I’ll try making a Kydex sheath next week.
 
Ryanol said:
Heh I am not a veteran. I've spoken with a couple of folks that are/were about their gear. Each of them told me that weight is the biggest concern and that things they thought they'd use like big knives got left behind. My grandfather told me that back in world war 2 this went so far as gas masks as he and other guys in his unit thought if it got that bad they probably weren't or didn't want to make it out.

I have however seen combat marketing exploited very well. Hell I even own an AR myself. Don't shoot it much but I am willing to admit that I bought it because it is badass.

I am intrigued now however. How did you utilize your hawk in the desert or vietnam?

Like I said, if you have an actual need for them I don't doubt they are priceless. My statements are more about the fact the price and demand are so high is about marketing. More of them sit in closets or bugout bags waiting to be used than actually doing bad ass shit day in and day out. That's because they've been marketed well. Btw "word of mouth" is marketing. Shit that story about Ed with the Winkler probably sold twenty or thirty hawks.

In America especially we have a hard time distinguishing between needs and wants (marketing) - it's clearly evident by how many storage unit developments exist.

Buying something because you want it is fine and lots of us justify it buy saying something like "that way I'll have it, or buy once cry once" type statements invented by marketers.
Click to expand...

Education on a specific subject is key to knowing what you're talking about and to be taken seriously.
When one show's no real knowledge on a "specific subject" but instead only states their own negative opinions (trolls a subject within a thread) it shows a blatant lack of knowledge on the particular subject.

As per your Grandfathers info, they didn't utilize tomahawks in WWW2 as some did in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan (individually purchased or directly supplied to Rangers by Ryan Johnson/RMJ).
As per an RMJ 'Jenny Wren' it weighs 20 ounces and attaches easily to any molle anywhere.
Best to speak to more than just "a couple of folks".

"I am intrigued now however. How did you utilize your hawk in the desert or vietnam?"
I'll give you 25 guess's.

If someone feels something is too expensive that's their prerogative, however to state "Tactical hawks to me are almost as silly as Emerson knives or chasing the next best super steel." or, "a tactical hawk will never need to open a car door without using the handle" when you have never experienced coming on the scene of a traffic or highway accident and the car/van/truck doors are without doubt non functioning, there's a clear lack of experience and knowledge.
Additionally, the U.S. Border Patrol and Department of Justice utilize RMJ (in the case of Ed Calderon: Winkler) products along the border, which has nothing to do with being "bad ass".

I personally feel if you want to troll Ed Calderon and/or Daniel Winkler or RMJ's purpose built hawks this is the wrong place for that, better off in the "FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!" section of Blade Forums.

"But let's be honest a tactical hawk is a lot like a go pro camera - you buy it because everybody wants to think they are badass. It's an easy sell."
Ya' really think so?
RMJ offers a 100% lifetime guarantee against structural failure of their tomahawks, axes and knives, highly doubtful Go Pro offers the same.

"I haven't read through this entire thread but has anyone had the stones to say it's mostly about marketing."
Try reading the whole thread.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/rmj-tactical-prices-wtf.1556856/page-4#post-17883003

Education + experience = knowledge.


 
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chambelona59 said:
Education on a specific subject is key to knowing what you're talking about and to be taken seriously.
When one show's no real knowledge on a "specific subject" but instead only states their own negative opinions (trolls a subject within a thread) it shows a blatant lack of knowledge on the particular subject.

As per your Grandfathers info, they didn't utilize tomahawks in WWW2 as some did in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan (individually purchased or directly supplied to Rangers by Ryan Johnson/RMJ).
As per an RMJ 'Jenny Wren' it weighs 20 ounces and attaches easily to any molle anywhere.
Best to speak to more than just "a couple of folks".

"I am intrigued now however. How did you utilize your hawk in the desert or vietnam?"
I'll give you 25 guess's.

If someone feels something is too expensive that's their prerogative, however to state "Tactical hawks to me are almost as silly as Emerson knives or chasing the next best super steel." or, "a tactical hawk will never need to open a car door without using the handle" when you have never experienced coming on the scene of a traffic or highway accident and the car/van/truck doors are without doubt non functioning, there's a clear lack of experience and knowledge.
Additionally, the U.S. Border Patrol and Department of Justice utilize RMJ (in the case of Ed Calderon: Winkler) products along the border, which has nothing to do with being "bad ass".

I personally feel if you want to troll Ed Calderon and/or Daniel Winkler or RMJ's purpose built hawks this is the wrong place for that, better off in the "FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!" section of Blade Forums.

"But let's be honest a tactical hawk is a lot like a go pro camera - you buy it because everybody wants to think they are badass. It's an easy sell."
Ya' really think so?
RMJ offers a 100% lifetime guarantee against structural failure of their tomahawks, axes and knives, highly doubtful Go Pro offers the same.

"I haven't read through this entire thread but has anyone had the stones to say it's mostly about marketing."
Try reading the whole thread.
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/rmj-tactical-prices-wtf.1556856/page-4#post-17883003

Education + experience = knowledge.
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So your a fireman then? I still can't really tell from your reply.

I am sure that rmj or helm forge or Winkler or tracker Dan or Wenger Dave or any other number of high end hawks can do what they are marketed as doing.

I just think it's funny that folks think marketing somehow makes the product inferior. It's simply one of the main variables in the demand/supply relationships that ultimately determine market price
 
I happily pay what they cost. Ryan is as good as gold, his people and products are too. They are fine tools, and I like supporting them. His licensed designs to CRKT are an amazing value if you don’t want to sink money in a full RMJ. Not over priced, no.
 
Some people change the oil in their car at home and wonder why XXX charges so much.
Some folks do their own weed treatment on their lawn and wonder why YYY costs so much.
Some folks like chocolate and some like vanilla.

You got some tools, and your first couple home-made knives. Now all you gotta do is figure out how to make them become in demand to thousands and
thousands of people, produce that quantity and run a successful business for about 20 years then you might even get close to competing with RMJ.
It's going to require less typing and more grinding.
Best of luck.
 
Leftytwogunz said:
Some people change the oil in their car at home and wonder why XXX charges so much.
Some folks do their own weed treatment on their lawn and wonder why YYY costs so much.
Some folks like chocolate and some like vanilla.

You got some tools, and your first couple home-made knives. Now all you gotta do is figure out how to make them become in demand to thousands and
thousands of people, produce that quantity and run a successful business for about 20 years then you might even get close to competing with RMJ.
It's going to require less typing and more grinding.
Best of luck.
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i wish i could like this 10000 times.
 
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