S30V vs M390 Toughness?

ClipPointed said:
It just seems to me if you are going with either S30V or M390, toughness considerations need not apply in the first place.
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You're wrong about that. Toughness is never "not" a consideration. You might be almost right if we were only talking about light-duty folders or dedicated slicers... but frankly, not that many people give a sincere hoot in Hell about pure cutting at the exclusion of all else.... the bar has been raised. Welcome to 2014 ;)

Survival/hard-use/tactical/bushcraft/fighting fixed-blade knives are a very hot ticket now, and they will be for some years to come. I see this influence in my clients who want thin, accurate - even delicate - kitchen knives, as well as those who want to knock the goldang head off a grizzly in one swell foop.

Toughness is a huge, huge factor to the people that are paying me a week or a month's salary for a knife that will never do battle with anything meaner than onions. They do not want to see edge-chipping or the edge rolling over when they're hammering away at garlic and 'maters to make a nice sauce.

Many clients want a high degree of corrosion-resistance and wear-resistance along with raw "bullet-proofedness". Thus, the interest in Elmax/M390/S35VN/CTS-XHP etc.

I love 1080/1084, and I love CPM-3V even better... but I also make a fair number of CPM-154 "survival" knives because they sell, and they just plain work, and they don't get returned to me because of any sort of failure. Like it or not, that's a fact that makers and manus have to acknowledge if they want to stay in business.
 
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james terrio said:
You're wrong about that. Toughness is never "not" a consideration. You might be almost right if we were only talking about light-duty folders or dedicated slicers... but frankly, not that many people give a sincere hoot in Hell about pure cutting at the exclusion of all else.... the bar has been raised. Welcome to 2014 ;)

Survival/hard-use/tactical/bushcraft/fighting fixed-blade knives are a very hot ticket now, and they will be for some years to come. Many clients want a high degree of corrosion-resistance and wear-resistance along with raw "bullet-proofedness". Thus, the interest in Elmax/M390/S35VN/CTS-XHP etc.

I love 1080/1084, and I love CPM-3V even better... but I also make a fair number of CPM-154 "survival" knives because they sell, and they just plain work, and they don't get returned to me because of any sort of failure. Like it or not, that's a fact that makers and manus have to acknowledge if they want to stay in business.
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That's actually starting to go back the other way again towards the thinner/lighter knives..... Slowly..... Still a lot of pry bars out there, both folding and fixed though....

Knowing that the knives don't have to be 1/4" thick spines with saber grinds and .050" behind the edge to hold up....

M390 and ELMAX are the two main ones and CPM 154 is finally starting to get more use also as it's a lot better steel than most people think it is...

I actually have 3 folders here on my desk from 3 different Companies that are in the 3 oz range right now, all just came out in the past 6 months or less.... S90V, S110V and ELMAX......
 
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I really like heavy-duty knives, and I like really thin knives even more.. If there is one common thread to my approach to studying/making knives, it's the pursuit of tougher steel/HT and thinner geometry, and trying to push that envelope where they all come together... :)
 
james terrio said:
I see this influence in my clients who want thin, accurate - even delicate - kitchen knives, as well as those who want to knock the goldang head off a grizzly in one swell foop.

Toughness is a huge, huge factor to the people that are paying me a week or a month's salary for a knife that will never do battle with anything meaner than onions. They do not want to see edge-chipping or the edge rolling over when they're hammering away at garlic and 'maters to make a nice sauce.
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There is room for both and both are selling as you said. :)

So the smart ones will have both available and or on their tables at the shows..

Variety is a good thing.
 
james terrio said:
I really like heavy-duty knives, and I like really thin knives even more.. If there is one common thread to my approach to studying/making knives, it's the pursuit of tougher steel/HT and thinner geometry, and trying to push that envelope where they all come together... :)
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I like to cut stuff. :D

I don't like to have to baton through an onion for example because the knife is so thick that you have to hammer it through it... And that's the point of how some of the knives have been from what I have seen...

I like the knife to pretty much fall through what I am cutting... Now that's the ticket IMO..... :thumbup:
 
We're drifting pretty far off-topic here :D ... but I'll say this much,,,

I've chopped/batonned thick knives through plenty of tough, knotty wood and I've gently guided thin knives through lots of taters and onions and 'maters and meat... and I've had to bulldog/wrench on my blade to complete the cut in lots of cases, due to my own poor planning or lack of skill... :o

And I've enjoyed it all. "I like to cut stuff", indeed :)
 
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I like knives that cut extremely well and that do not chip out or have tips that break off. Thin blades with flat grinds are my favorite (PM2, Manix2) but I have had problems with VG10 and S30V in the past. Despite what ideal some may have, if you think tough does not matter because knives should only be used for simple cutting chores, then you are good to go with a thin blade of any of the so-called super steels and a lot of other choices too. I don't think I abuse my knives, but one of the rules of life is you use the tool you have with you and you don't have as much control over circumstances as you want. If I am working in a remote location (I am a field biologist) and have to hike in, I do not carry a ton of gear. I can't. I try always to have a sturdy fixed blade (3V preferred unless I am working around salt water, then I want stainless) and a slicey folder. My favorite folders are knives like spyderco PM2. Lots of FB choices. Knives are cutting tools, but I don't want blade failure because I am doing something some folks might consider inappropriate for a knife. Twisting cuts where a blade edge gets some lateral stress, for example. Using a knife tip as a drill in wood or plastic. Cutting rope or webbing that is holding something harder underneath and you might hit the blade on it. Splitting wood, even batoning. Tough matters, in addition to cutting and low maintenance!
 
Getting back to the original question :)
If you were a knife maker and could use any real steel you wanted, and your design specs were (1) stainless, (2) excellent cutting performance, and (3) tough enough for hard use and unexpected or infrequent more extreme use (its a survival situation), what would you choose? You can use any design you want and any steel you want, you can optimize heat treat and grind for that design and steel. Lets say we want something around 3.5 - 5", so not a chopper. Fixed or folder (I want one of each).

It depends is NOT an answer, it is a dodge to this question. Of course it depends and that has been hashed out repeatedly in this thread. There are tradeoffs, we all know that.The point is, you actually have to design and make a knife. So what do you do?

At one extreme, you could go with a very thick blade to minimize risk of breakage. Then you probably won't have as good a cutting edge. I can think of real knives that went this route. Then at the other extreme you can make a thin slicey dicey kitchen knife that will probably fail in the field under hard use. Again, lots of examples come to mind.

Your steel choices: S90V, M390, 204P, 20CV, 110V, Elmax, CPM-154, S30V, S35vn, 154CM, ATS34, VG10, 440C, the list goes on. Make a knife.
Reeves goes with S35vn, Mike Stewart goes with S35vn and has a few models in Elmax and 154CM, ZT uses a lot of Elmax, Emerson goes with 154CM, Survive uses 20CV, Spyderco uses a variety, but most not in "hard-use/survival" category.

What do YOU use? Does your ranking change if you are going with 3.5, 4 or 5"? Does it change if you are making a fixed blade or a folder?
If yes to either, why? What is your evidence? Is it based on experience and testing of actual knives? It better be or it is not evidence!

Anyone want to play :) Or are we tired of the question, or do we just not know? But you have to make a knife...
 
dogrunner said:
Getting back to the original question :)
If you were a knife maker and could use any real steel you wanted, and your design specs were (1) stainless, (2) excellent cutting performance, and (3) tough enough for hard use and unexpected or infrequent more extreme use (its a survival situation), what would you choose? You can use any design you want and any steel you want, you can optimize heat treat and grind for that design and steel. Lets say we want something around 3.5 - 5", so not a chopper. Fixed or folder (I want one of each).

It depends is NOT an answer, it is a dodge to this question. Of course it depends and that has been hashed out repeatedly in this thread. There are tradeoffs, we all know that.The point is, you actually have to design and make a knife. So what do you do?

At one extreme, you could go with a very thick blade to minimize risk of breakage. Then you probably won't have as good a cutting edge. I can think of real knives that went this route. Then at the other extreme you can make a thin slicey dicey kitchen knife that will probably fail in the field under hard use. Again, lots of examples come to mind.

Your steel choices: S90V, M390, 204P, 20CV, 110V, Elmax, CPM-154, S30V, S35vn, 154CM, ATS34, VG10, 440C, the list goes on. Make a knife.
Reeves goes with S35vn, Mike Stewart goes with S35vn and has a few models in Elmax and 154CM, ZT uses a lot of Elmax, Emerson goes with 154CM, Survive uses 20CV, Spyderco uses a variety, but most not in "hard-use/survival" category.

What do YOU use? Does your ranking change if you are going with 3.5, 4 or 5"? Does it change if you are making a fixed blade or a folder?
If yes to either, why? What is your evidence? Is it based on experience and testing of actual knives? It better be or it is not evidence!

Anyone want to play :) Or are we tired of the question, or do we just not know? But you have to make a knife...
Click to expand...

That's actually what I do...... As a Consultant... ;)

So it's not really all that difficult.... For me...

Fixed Blade:

Steel would be M390/CPM 20CV whatever one I could get as needed.....

Blade Length 4.5"

Grind, Flat...

Spine Thickness, .155"

Tip, Drop Pint

Behind the Edge Thickness, .030"

Hardness, 59-60 HRC


Folder:

Steel: Same as Above...

Blade Length, 3.50"

Grind, Flat

Spine thickness: .145"

Tip, Drop Point

Behind the edge, .025"

Hardness, 59-60 HRC

Lock, Frame Lock

Full Titanium...


The Fixed blade would be the better common since choice for the so call uses and would handle anything that would come up realistically.... Also highly doubtful it would break unless one was trying to break it on purpose...

That's based on my own testing over the years..... It's all well documented here on BF...


However if I could use any steel I really wanted and the guy was a real ham fisted knuckle dragger I would go with A2 at 60, 3/16" thick spine, 5" blade and .035" behind the edge......

Folder would be out of the question.... I wouldn't build one period....
 
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james terrio said:
You're wrong about that. Toughness is never "not" a consideration. You might be almost right if we were only talking about light-duty folders or dedicated slicers... but frankly, not that many people give a sincere hoot in Hell about pure cutting at the exclusion of all else.... the bar has been raised. Welcome to 2014 ;)

Survival/hard-use/tactical/bushcraft/fighting fixed-blade knives are a very hot ticket now, and they will be for some years to come. I see this influence in my clients who want thin, accurate - even delicate - kitchen knives, as well as those who want to knock the goldang head off a grizzly in one swell foop.

Toughness is a huge, huge factor to the people that are paying me a week or a month's salary for a knife that will never do battle with anything meaner than onions. They do not want to see edge-chipping or the edge rolling over when they're hammering away at garlic and 'maters to make a nice sauce.

Many clients want a high degree of corrosion-resistance and wear-resistance along with raw "bullet-proofedness". Thus, the interest in Elmax/M390/S35VN/CTS-XHP etc.

I love 1080/1084, and I love CPM-3V even better... but I also make a fair number of CPM-154 "survival" knives because they sell, and they just plain work, and they don't get returned to me because of any sort of failure. Like it or not, that's a fact that makers and manus have to acknowledge if they want to stay in business.
Click to expand...

What people are willing to pay for is not a reliable gauge of optimal design or performance. Generally speaking, people are very easily swayed by hype, misinformation, confirmation biases etc. Remember, it was not too long ago that people believed all manner of nonsense about cutlery - e.g. that forging is superior than stock removal, that edge strength is only about the choice of steel etc etc.

My point was simply that, if you are making a knife and using either M390 or S30V, it is unlikely that given the intended use of that knife, toughness would be a serious consideration. Think of the scenarios in which M390 or S30V blade steel makes sense and then ask yourself if you need to consider toughness in those applications. I'm sure there's at least some examples, but they'd be the exception surely.

I mean, half of this is just obvious - high carbide steels like the ones I just said are generally low toughness anyway.
 
Ankerson said:
That's actually what I do...... As a Consultant... ;)

So it's not really all that difficult.... For me...

Fixed Blade:

Steel would be M390/CPM 20CV whatever one I could get as needed.....

Blade Length 4.5"

Grind, Flat...

Spine Thickness, .155"

Tip, Drop Pint

Behind the Edge Thickness, .030"

Hardness, 59-60 HRC
Click to expand...

What would be the intended uses of this hypothetical knife?

Edit: I ask that because the question did not set high wear-resistance as a criteria.
 
ClipPointed said:
What would be the intended uses of this hypothetical knife?

Edit: I ask that because the question did not set high wear-resistance as a criteria.
Click to expand...


Dunno, whatever fantasy stuff they can think up I suppose...
(1) stainless, (2) excellent cutting performance, and (3) tough enough for hard use and unexpected or infrequent more extreme use (its a survival situation)
Click to expand...

But that what sells the knives......

M390 provides a good balance, pretty much all around and at 60 with that geometry it's going to be strong and stainless enough and hold an edge for a good amount of time.
 
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Thanks. Excellent answer! That is pretty much what I want and look for/found in real knives I can buy.

As far as survival use - is it fantasy? - for most people it probably is. Maybe its the old boy scout thing - be prepared. For me, I think the knives you describe will be great performers for typical knife chores, but have low probability of failure if I need to... baton to get dry wood for firemaking, break ice for drinking water for my dogs, or even me (I said it was a survival situation, happens that most of my scenarios are winter in the north), use as ice pick to get purchase on lake ice if I break through and need to pull myself out before hypothermia makes movement impossible (happens fast). When tired one also does dumb things, like cut into something forgetting it is lying on rocky ground and rocky ground is not a good cutting board (as far as knife edges are concerned). I want the blade to survive these sorts of things and still be useable as a cutting tool (possibly with some field maintenance if edge is damaged but reparable). YMMV.

Ankerson said:
That's actually what I do...... As a Consultant... ;)

So it's not really all that difficult.... For me...

Fixed Blade:

Steel would be M390/CPM 20CV whatever one I could get as needed.....

Blade Length 4.5"

Grind, Flat...

Spine Thickness, .155"

Tip, Drop Pint

Behind the Edge Thickness, .030"

Hardness, 59-60 HRC


Folder:

Steel: Same as Above...

Blade Length, 3.50"

Grind, Flat

Spine thickness: .145"

Tip, Drop Point

Behind the edge, .025"

Hardness, 59-60 HRC

Lock, Frame Lock

Full Titanium...


The Fixed blade would be the better common since choice for the so call uses and would handle anything that would come up realistically.... Also highly doubtful it would break unless one was trying to break it on purpose...

That's based on my own testing over the years..... It's all well documented here on BF...


However if I could use any steel I really wanted and the guy was a real ham fisted knuckle dragger I would go with A2 at 60, 3/16" thick spine, 5" blade and .035" behind the edge......

Folder would be out of the question.... I wouldn't build one period....
Click to expand...
 
Wow, I 've been out in the woods the last few days, using my knives, and haven't been online. In that time, this thread has turned into a nice accumulation of knowledge and info. Thanks Ankerson and James Terrio for what you guys have added! Good stuff
 
dogrunner said:
If you were a knife maker and could use any real steel you wanted, and your design specs were (1) stainless, (2) excellent cutting performance, and (3) tough enough for hard use and unexpected or infrequent more extreme use (its a survival situation), what would you choose?
Click to expand...

Elmax or CTS-XHP, based on personal happy experience with them. If they're not available, I would try M390 based on several recommendations from people I trust and admire.

ClipPointed said:
My point was simply that, if you are making a knife and using either M390 or S30V, it is unlikely that given the intended use of that knife, toughness would be a serious consideration.
Click to expand...

My clients and I disagree... as do many other makers and thousands of other happy customers. Modern stain-resistant alloys are no longer assumed to simply be "not tough", only good for certain applications, or automatically unsuitable for rough use. This isn't hype, it's demonstrable by actual fact. As I said above, welcome to 2014 :)

ClipPointed said:
I mean, half of this is just obvious - high carbide steels like the ones I just said are generally low toughness anyway.
Click to expand...

That "obvious" notion is slowly falling by the wayside, along with edge-packing and the forged-vs.-stock-removal thing you mentioned earlier. I think that's largely due to much better manufacturing techniques - 3rd gen powder metallurgy in particular. You might be pleasantly surprised by how tough they can be... I certainly was when I and several friends got to severely testing several relatively high-carbide blades. (CPM-154, Elmax and CTS-XHP)
 
james terrio said:
My clients and I disagree... as do many other makers and thousands of other happy customers. Modern stain-resistant alloys are no longer assumed to simply be "not tough", only good for certain applications, or automatically unsuitable for rough use. This isn't hype, it's demonstrable by actual fact. As I said above, welcome to 2014 :)

That "obvious" notion is slowly falling by the wayside, along with edge-packing and the forged-vs.-stock-removal thing you mentioned earlier. I think that's largely due to much better manufacturing techniques - 3rd gen powder metallurgy in particular. You might be pleasantly surprised by how tough they can be... I certainly was when I and several friends got to severely testing several relatively high-carbide blades. (CPM-154, Elmax and CTS-XHP)
Click to expand...

The 'actual fact' part would be nice to see. In any case, I just want to know what baseline/standard you are using when you claim that high carbide steels (like S30V and M390) are tough. And following on naturally from that, I want to know, then:

1. What you consider to be low toughness
2. How you would describe the toughness of S series/spring steels/mid carbon steels in general etc.
 
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