S30v

[Habeas Corpus]

Hans, I don't want to turn this into a debate about language, but if Cliff had a definitive tome on metallurgy in Aramaic, and was the only one with English crib notes, would you get your panties in a wad then?

If Cliff (or, for that matter, anyone else here) found an interesting source in a language I don't speak, I certainly wouldn't reject it offhand simply because I'm ignorant of the language.

The unifying language on this forum is English, in case you were confused or something.

Haette ich auf Englisch geantwortet, wenn ich dass nicht wuesste? *grins*

Und nicht traten die Vereinigten Staaten den Misten aus den Deutschen heraus nicht so vor langer Zeit? Lassen Sie sich nicht zu grosser, kleiner Mann, es aussehen läßt Sie nur der Dummkopf scheinen!

I don't really want to respond in kind, but maybe you should get hold of Roman Landes' book after all. It might help you understand why there are widely different opinions about carbide rich steels.

Hans

 

[Kohai999]

If Cliff (or, for that matter, anyone else here) found an interesting source in a language I don't speak, I certainly wouldn't reject it offhand simply because I'm ignorant of the language.

Haette ich auf Englisch geantwortet, wenn ich dass nicht wuesste? *grins*
Hans

As I said before, I am not rejecting it, I don't even know where to get it. I have been given a hyperlink to the graph with english translation that Roman did.

Europeans in general, seem to speak 2 or more languages. In that sense, there is definite superiority over many Americans. I speak passable Spanish, but that is about the only other language that I speak, and am certainly not as well written in Spanish as you are in English.

I would like to read Roman's work, and will obtain it when I can, but I do KNOW that Cliff LOVES to argue(even if he is on a slippery slope), and will stop just short of blatently distorting a quote in order to make his point.

I would rather hear from Roman directly, or Mr. Wilson or even some of the guys from Crucible, which seems to have been villified by many in this thread, no matter how thinly veiled, than Cliff, because of his ability to ignore direct questions, and greater ability to turn water into whine when it suits him.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[quinque voces]

Well, I guess I might be beating a dead horse but I don't understand what's so special about ignoring results of scientific research. Must be the cool German bashing that Kohai999 mixed in.

If we put this aside for a moment, the underlying problem seems simple enough: How do you deal with scientific information relevant to the topic of discussion if the information isn't published in your native language?

Obviously there are two options:

1. Dismiss it as irrelevant. If it had any value it would have been published in English in the first place.
2. Try to gather as much information about the research of others as you can by contacting the researchers, asking for abstracts or translations etc.

Option 1 seems to be the one that Kohai999 suggests. The arguments for this can be reconstructed as follows:

I. Use of a foreign language renders the publication "obscure".
II. The US won WWII anyway.
III. Between 1938 and 1945 in Germany millions were killed in concentration camps.

Assertion I is disproved by scientific practice and clearly counterproductive to knowledge and progress.
Standing for themselves, assertion II and III are undisputably true. Yet I fail to see how they support the contention that science should be ignored if you can't understand it. Of course I foresee what will be said to refute these objections:

Lemme be real clear, here, dackler, hans and the rest of the German contingent getting all fluffed up. I really don't give a crap what you think.

Or about thinking in general... Well, each to his own.

Option II (taking publications into account even if the scientists are foreigners) is the one Cliff Stamp chose and he get's bashed for it. Gathering knowledge often can be laborious. Those who feel not inclined to burden themselves with science and scientific theories should abstain from belittling those who do. Who would decry his physician if he suggests an effective therapy based on valid research just because it was published in a foreign language?

This is not meant as an argument against the valuable experience of knifemakers like Phil Wilson. It is just an attempt to refute the proposed dismissal of documented facts by way of personal attacks.

Edit: I took me too long to write this because as everybody can see English is not my native language. What Kohai999 posted in the meantime straightens out that it is not his intention to dimiss the findings of Landes. And about the German bashing - well, to tell the truth, we're pretty much used to it... So perhaps we should just call it a day.

 

[Kohai999]

Or about thinking in general... Well, each to his own.

Option II (taking the scientific results into account even if the scientits are foreigners) is the one Cliff Stamp chose and he get's bashed for it. Gathering knowledge often can be laborious. Those who feel not inclined to burden themselves with science and scientific theories should abstain from belittling those who do. Who would decry his physician if he suggests an effective therapy based on valid research just because its publication is in a foreign language?

This is not meant as an argument against the valuable experience of knifemakers like Phil Wilson. It is just an attempt to refute the proposed dismissal of documented facts by way of personal attacks.

I'm pretty sure that it is NOT cool to bash the Germans. I mean my wife does own a BMW, so youse's can't be all bad.

Cliff is a foreigner, to me, he is from Newfoundland, in Canada, which means that he might just as well be German, but speaks and writes a variant of English that I can almost understand.

I did a web search on Roman Landes, I looked for publications. I indicated that above. I have no intent to disprove the findings of Landes, I am quite sure from talking with Kevin Cashen that they are interesting, and valid, and would benefit me.

I have a hard enough time finding books that I REALLY want to read that are obscure/out of print, or hard to find, that putting a lot of time into searching for something so that I can cross compare Cliff's references to it and make sure that he is using the quote in the proper context is simply TOO much work, and unpleasant work at that.

You are beating a dead horse into dog food.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[bbcmat]

When you spend more time speaking about yourself than the topic - you're off topic.

When you spend more time speaking about who or how something was said - you're off topic.

Back to S30V.

MAT

 

[Kohai999]

When you spend more time speaking about yourself than the topic - you're off topic.

When you spend more time speaking about who or how something was said - you're off topic.

Back to S30V.

MAT

1. You are not a Moderator, and you are a newb, so STFU.
2. Your point about S30V above, was........?

To recap, S30 seems like a steel with great potential, but as any other high carbon stain-resistant steel, needs to be experimented with a bit, using the heat-treating data provided by Crucible as a baseline.

Is that about it?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[bubbamets5505]

There are several knives made of s30v that I wanted to buy and now I'm scared to buy them!!! Thanks alot guys.:grumpy:

 

[The Mastiff]

I say go ahead and buy them. Even if it does chip ( right now a big if) just resharpen it. The steel is an excellent cutting steel, and holds a great edge. Joe L.

 

[Cobalt]

I think the point here is that steels can look good on paper but not perform well. The process of making powder steel can be good if done right since the high carbin content would be impossible to attain any other way..



Questions for Satrang:

How large are the original casting ingots that are made from the powder sprayed metal dust? Are they fairly large? small? Shape? Just an idea as to size will be enough, thanks

 

[thombrogan]

Mr. Garsson,

The English-language link I sent you also had a hyperlink to the fabled pdf file.

I also don't think it's unfair to criticize Crucible's promotions of S30V for its 'toughness' and 'ease of heat-treatment' when those aren't S30V's strong points. The whole tranverse-charpy results thing proved pretty irrelevant, too. Had Crucible just said that S30V was like 154CM, but with more wear-resistance and corrosion resistance; and left out the 'tougher than A2' crap; that would've been cool. That's not what happened. So we moan like brats who lost our Atari for a month. Well, I do.

 

[rosconey2]

my s30v alais2 takes a edge as easy as can be-holds a edge very well also-

bg42 sebenza held better but is a royal pita to sharpen imho

 

[Cobalt]

I posted this question on the forum and I am not getting any response probably because there are so few people on the forums on a nice day like this...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416444

Here is my misgiving about CPM. Molten metal is sprayed through nozzles and made into a fine powder. This powder which is homogenous(contains all the elements of the comlete steel) is then poured into containers. Heat and pressure are applied to fuse these particles together. However, this cannot become molten since if it becomes molten you return to a normal steel smelting process, so the heat and the pressure has to be just enough to prevent migration of particles within the container. Liquification causes migration so there is none. So in essence you have a steel with nearly ideal microcontituent proportions throughout. There is no question of that.

The BIG question is whether the fused powder bond is as good as the bond when particles are melted. I don't think the bond is anywhere near as good. So you have a steel that on paper sounds great but when worked with doesn't perform to it's full potential. Most steels have a grain direction and the ingots are hot rolld from large 8-12 inch thick slabs to .5 inh thick or smaller. These rolled slabs are very strong and have a prefered grain direction much like wood. CPM steels by their very nature have no grain direction, they are homogenous in every direction and their grain boundary's are not as strong as a smelted steel IMO. In essense it's like having particle board. It may have some more strength in one direction, but not the main direction of use. Thus you get brittle fracturing with the cross section looking like cast iron. I have seen this in a few samples which were properly heat treated and am not saying it would be typical for all. There could be lots of factors in this like poor heat teat, poor steel batch etc.

I had a hard use ATS34 steel knife that I have abused and never failed me. I believe the right HT and good steel matrix gave it all it needed. I have it's sister in mint condition and I am willing to bet that it would outperform any CPM Stainless Steel hard use modified tanto. Blade WEST is just around the corner, who wants to take me up on it. We can cut nails and stab drums until failure.:thumbup:

I remember a Blade magazine cover with Rob Simonich holding a S30V raven broken in half. I don't think that would have happened with my ATS34 blade at the same load. Oh by the way my ATS34 was a regular production blade retailing for over $300 and I got it discounted at $280. So it wasn't a cheapo and it's value was equivalent to some customs. So this is no POS.

This is not a rant, just some interest in what is really happening with this stuff. Also what is the difference between aircraft grade CPM and not. The fact that there are two grades is scary in of itself.

 

[Cobalt]

Ok, I will ask my questions in this thread nstead::

How large is each container used to heat and pressurize the powder?

If the large containers are heated you have no way of knowing that the bond in the inner most section of the container has fused and bonded equally to the outer regions?

Does crucible make std formula steels the same way to compare to rolled steel? Say like ATS34 done by CPM versus ATS34 done the std way? Apples to appples comparison?

The recent CPM3V thread has only shown me that I am not the only one that has had serious issues with these steels. I cannot blame CPM or the maker as I do not know where the problem lies. I never mention names of makers knives I have broken. I contact them and mail them the knife. They can do what they want with them. Those makers know that and I am sure they appreciate it. The cheaper ones I just threw away.

How do you determine at what point the bond is equivalent to smelted steel bonds?

I am obviously no authority on CPM steels or any other steel, but these are just my observations over years of use and being around steel. I'd like to get some answers. I have had 440V, 420V, S30V and 3V, fail me, all by different manufacturers, which leads me to believe that it was not the maker of the knife. The heat treaters were different in a few cases, but one is well known and I believe it was done right, so this takes me back to my original idea that the bond at the 200 micron level (I am assuming powder particle size here) is weak.

 

[Kohai999]

Had Crucible just said that S30V was like 154CM, but with more wear-resistance and corrosion resistance; and left out the 'tougher than A2' crap; that would've been cool.

Thom,

That was probably one of the most easily understood and clear statements concerning S30 that have come out of this entire thread(should that simplification be accurate enough for some of the pickier posters).

It also could have alleviated about 3 pages of extraneous material.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cobalt]

Thom,

That was probably one of the most easily understood and clear statements concerning S30 that have come out of this entire thread(should that simplification be accurate enough for some of the pickier posters).

It also could have alleviated about 3 pages of extraneous material.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I don't think so. There are some legitimate issues here, kinda like the issues in the early 2000 time frame with Stellite and Talonite and their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Thomas W]

I have had 440V, 420V, S30V and 3V, fail me, all by different manufacturers, which leads me to believe that it was not the maker of the knife. The heat treaters were different in a few cases, but one is well known and I believe it was done right,

Could you elaborate on some of the issues you have come across?

 

[Cobalt]

440V and 420V chipped the edge, but the Rc was around 63 If I remember correctly, so I should hve expected that. They were folders so I never did any prying with them. S30V and 3v were both fixed blades and both had edges that chipped out in a big way(I am talking about 4mm deep by about 10mm chunks) instead of rolling. This occured while cutting carpet. I expected that from S30V but not 3V. I called the maker of both knives (same maker) and was told that it could have been the HT. I then purchased another 3V blade and it chipped with little effort chopping hard wood. I ground the edge down and sold the knife. I have had these problems with many steels. Not just CPM, to be fair, but I have had better luck with 1095 and 1084 as well. Even 440C worked better for me. Kit Carsons U2 in 440C was more impressive than the S30V blades.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Where can I read his work?

His main work which was the subject of his PhD thesis is in german. He however posts here in english which is where I became aware of it and is responsive to emails. He is also a knife maker.

1. I just got off the phone with Kevin Cashen. Quoting Landes is not fair, because what he published is in GERMAN, which most of us don't happen to read, and therefore, automatically makes any quotes irrefutable, in addition, while the work, according to Kevin, is extremely in depth, and knowledgeable, is not commonly available, making reference difficult, to say the least.

The fundamental points made by Landes have been spoken by Johnston on rec.knives for over a dozen years. They are also noted in Verhoeven's work on steels which is available on the internet in english. They are also based on fundament tool steel principles which is where Johnston got his information from, ASM reference books.

Other makers, more well known in the US, have been promoting the same ideas for some time, Devin Thomas on AEB-L for example after reading Verhoeven's work. The same fundamental ideas are known by many makers, give Busse a phone call and ask him how he feels about wear resistance = edge retention. He will argue strongly that wear is often of little importance because edges will chip/deform under many uses as the critical mode of failure.

This is the same point Landes makes, as does Johnston, as does Verhoeven, as do all the tool steel books. You have to first pick a steel which doesn't deform/chip and then worry about wear. Bryson talks about this in detail in his book on selection of tool steels, R.J. Martin recommended this to me years ago and if you read it you will note a huge disparity between the viewpoint presented and the common knife maker perspective on steel selection. Anything by Krauss is worth reading, Bryson's is a lay version, Krauss covers the subjects in much more detail.

...and how do you define light cutting and/or use?

S30V has chipped cutting cardboard, plastics, and even cord stalks. It would be difficult to call any of that hard cutting with a steel knife.

secondary hardness was also triggered which give my s30v knife the optimum performance.

That is an interesting point, there was a huge debate about this issue with ATS-34 over if the high or low temper made a better knife, metallurgists argued mainly for the low and makers often for the high. I'd really like to see an indepth comparison of the two in S30V. Do you have any data you would be willing to share.

-Cliff

 

[3Guardsmen]

When you spend more time speaking about yourself than the topic - you're off topic.

When you spend more time speaking about who or how something was said - you're off topic.

Back to S30V.

MAT

1. You are not a Moderator, and you are a newb, so STFU.

STeven Garsson

Well, I must say, bbcmat had a pretty good point. He didn't single you out either, but probably should have. I'm not a Moderator, and all things considered, I, too, probably qualify as somewhat of a "newb". So the question I now have is this. What kind of profane statement are you going to direct towards me, disguised as a harmless acronym, and mixed with a harmless, "big grin" (an out if needed I'm guessing)?

I think it is funny that you try to invalidate bbcmat's post/opinion by saying "You are not a Moderator", yet use an acronym for language you directed towards him that a Moderator would probably send you packing for. That is of course assuming that the acronym you used was to convey a statement that included profanity. If it doesn't, maybe you could clarify it by explaining exactly what those four, capitalized letters stand for?

Regards,
3G

 

[Kohai999]

Well, I must say, bbcmat had a pretty good point. He didn't single you out either, but probably should have. I'm not a Moderator, and all things considered, I, too, probably qualify as somewhat of a "newb". So the question I now have is this. What kind of profane statement are you going to direct towards me, disguised as a harmless acronym, and mixed with a harmless, "big grin" (an out if needed I'm guessing)?

Regards,
3G

1. No, bbcmat did not have a good point. When a fight comes your way you can a) ignore it or b) face all comers head on. I generally choose b). The German guys decided to get fluffed up, so I dealt. My intent was not to derail the thread.

2. You are certainly not a Moderator, and are kind of a newb, but for the most part seem like a decent guy. You just have no idea what does NOT get posted on the Forums, and what kind of back information and communiques are going on.

3. The Moderators will give me a bit of slack, and I am VERY respectful towards them, and the job that they do.

4. You are correct about the "four letters", they are a generally accepted "implication" of profanity, but remain agreeable. IF people would stop coming at me, (you included 3G) THEN I WOULD STFU. Get it? I don't need an "out", I 'm just trying to say that in General, there are no hard feelings.

Stop dragging me into this, and keep it on S30V.

Cliff, Phil Wilson, and Thom Brogan have got it about hashed out as far as I can figure.

STeven Garsson