s30v

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san mai, low/no chrome core and stainless sides. permanent, something like Murray Carter or Burt Foster knives.
 
Well, 13 degrees per side is 26 degrees, 2 degrees above the 24 degree edge witch Landes says the carbide edge stability is an issue. I’ve even been able to use a high carbide steel D2 with no issues at 10 degrees per side, 20 degree edge. That isn’t a real polished edge around a 2000 grit finish. I personally do think that the edges even at grit like 2000 do seem to be just a hair sharper with the lower alloy steels but I think you need a very polished edge to really notice it. Landes posted about carbide edge stability angles and polish in a thread here
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4485405#post4485405
This link and a copy of the post was posted already in this thread post number 153
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Ooops it is a 25 degree edge not 24, and highly polished. So yeah if the heat treat wasn't good you very well could see effects at 13 degrees per side I'd think.
 
Wow Fernet,

You sound A Lot like Cliff..I mean your syntax, the way you organize your thoughts...I mean dang! It's eerie. :o

You guys must have very similar backgrounds.
 
hardheart said:
all you have to do is ask someone to check the ip of where he is posting from
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I'm not accusing anyone of anything ...

It's just that I'm reading F and think I'm reading C. There are a lot of folks on these boards that would consider that high praise.
 
Thanks for the link db. I had missed that thread. A nice conversation. I find it interesting that STR says he also has seen large carbide size make a negative difference in cutting performance. STR is one of the folks whose opinions carry weight with me.

On the other hand, I went back to the thread that Cliff had provided earlier. It shows the CATRA results. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=421313

If I read the graphs and posts correctly, the tests showed that ATS34 could outcut 420HC when both received the same 30° inclusive edge. Now if I remember correctly from the micrographs I've seen posted, ATS34 has far bigger carbides than S30V. So if ATS34 is good at 30° inclusive, S30V should be also. And one would expect S30V to outperform low carbide steels if both are edged at that angle. Although STR says they did not in his testing. Got no answer for that except that I know that the CATRA tests are a very specific test. The results may not be what someone else would get in a different type of cutting.

I read a fair number of posts in the Toolshed forum. If I had to average it out, I would say that most folks are sharpening their high end steels at about 30° inclusive.

So, if Cliff Stamp (and Roman Landes) is/are arguing that S30V is unstable at less than 20°-25° inclusive, and folks are not sharpening at that flat an angle, that might explain why his statements do not agree with people's experiences. In other words, both sides could be correct. The phenomenon may be real, but people may not be seeing it because they don't sharpen at the angles at which it occurs.

I need another beer.
 
zenheretic said:
I am unaware of any coating that is permanent. :confused:
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So am I. And I'm even more confused by the chipped edge of my 1095 Ka-Bar, especially comparing it to the 154cm knives I'm being told are inferior to the old non-stainless steels.

I know for a fact that 154cm will dent before it chips, even when striking metal, while 1095 does the opposite.

But let's ignore the empirical evidence, and go back to the data sheets. Where are those data sheets again?

Knarfeng, it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if most of this thread was directed at cutting angles no one actually uses.
 
enderwiggin said:
So am I. And I'm even more confused by the chipped edge of my 1095 Ka-Bar, especially comparing it to the 154cm knives I'm being told are inferior to the old non-stainless steels.

I know for a fact that 154cm will dent before it chips, even when striking metal, while 1095 does the opposite.
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that's weird, i have an Ontario machete in 1095 carbon and it faired better in chipping damage better than my benchmade 154cm. i was chopping a piece of quarter leg of a pig and my machete made thru the meat and bone and hit the concrete floor and suffered only minor chips and rolls, but out of curiosity i hit the benchmade the same way and larger chips resulted. Ontario 12" machete definitely hit with much greater force than a 4.5" nimravus while suffered less damage.:confused:
 
going back to the subject... S30v is a powder steel, then how did they make it into sheets again? Heat and pressure must be involved, but how much heat and pressure? could it be that not enough heat or pressure is used to make the final product (everyone knows there is a hard, dark coating formed on the surface of the steel after it contact oxygen during cooling) could it still exist on microscopic level forming boundaries between steel clusters? could this be the reason why S30v is getting so much negative reports...?

need opinions... Cliff...?
 
Nimravus Nut said:
Jerry, I do believe there is so much being discussed here, people do get side tracked, besides it was you that brought up the question about 440a being better at edge holding than 440c.

I do not agree with Cliff about 440a being better in edge holding than 440c, but there are cutting applications that may include side loading that causes 440c edge to rip out.

After reviewing some of your arguments, I do believe there is a generalization about S30v. S30v is a carefully made powder steel that requires high level of cleanliness compared to how most traditional steels are manufactured. So in regard to the scrutiny level of production, isn't it true that S30v requires a hightened level of heat treat process? And from majority of the users here, there is a lot of people complaining S30v chipping out than those who uses VG-10, 440c, infi, or 154cm.

Maybe, Jerry, you are the only one that got the heat treat right on S30v, because I don't ever come across anyone that complains about your knives chipping out. But then you also wouldn't disclose your heat treat process to another maker, right? I then assume, if most other makers can't get the heat treat right on S30v suitable for large chopper, then I can say that it is unsuitable for S30v to be used as large chopper unless you made it.

The general point I'm trying to make is that S30v is hard to heat treat and it's even harder to get it right to make it tough enough for a large chopper. Sticking to the context, there are other stainless more suitable for a large chopper for a much lower cost. For example, Aus8, VG-10, D2, even 440c are much better for choppers if you don't want it to chip and not wanting to pay $500+ for a custom "use" knife.
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I started reading this stuff in reverse order since I left town, but this one stopped me and requires a response.

LOTS of people heat treat S30V right, and since when don't I divulge information on how I make knives. I probably share as much knifemaking info as anyone you know. Paul Bos does my heat treating. He worked out the schedule in consultation with Crucible and a few knifemakers, of which I was one. Paul is usually willing to share the specifics, but I believe it is 1975F for 30 minutes, cold air blast (quench plates work too) quench. Snap temper at something like 300-400F for 30-60 minutes (not critical), Liquid Nitrogen quench overnight, followed by two tempers at 600F for 2 hours each. I think that's right, but some including Paul might have a more exact answer. Whatever I'm not sharing is because I don't know it. I send them to Paul, as can anyone, and he does the work. Companies besides Buck us salt baths I believe but follow pretty much the same sequence.

Also, lots of people have used S30V blades for a number of sources with no problems at all. I'm not sure why you wanted to single me out as a bad guy here, but I'm hardly unique among knifemakers. Then again, maybe you think like Cliff and believe we are all guilty of hype.

Opinions vary.

BTW, on what basis did you decide D2 and 440C are not prone to chipping? I could ask the same question re VG-10 and AUS8, but no sense in splitting more hairs.

Most of what you've written since this post seems aimed at emulating Cliff, including a penchant for uncontrolled cuts that terminate on concrete.
 
I'm not sure I pointed out that the nail cuts I made were done with a single hammer strike, so I wasn't babying the edge by trying to nurse it through the task. Hardheart, those results were about what I would have expected. Thanks for sharing that.

My edges are convex so expressing the geometry in degrees is a little misleading. On the comparison of 154CM and M60S, I'd guess the edges were about 15 degrees. On the 154CM/1095 comparison mentioned. The large blade I showed above is a 1095 (Rc54/55) Ontario machete with a heavy convex edge. It completely deformed with much less brittle failure than might be expected. I've never seen 154CM suffer plastic deformation, but I've never used it below Rc57/58.
 
ooh, now I need to get more knives to check with a single hammer blow

holy crap I need a new hobby...

Maybe I'll try the six lb sledge I picked up from my dad's, maybe I won't be so squirrelly with that.
 
JCaswell said:
Wow Fernet,

You sound A Lot like Cliff..I mean your syntax, the way you organize your thoughts...I mean dang! It's eerie. :o

You guys must have very similar backgrounds.
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High praise indeed and I thank you for the compliment. I live down under and only met Cliff on his forum. If we sound similar it may be because we both understand metallurgy and share a passion for knives.

Regards
FernetBranca
 
I dont make knives but isure do use them and spend a lot of money tring to get a good one for work. im a mechanic and a landscaper, i must say i have found s30v pretty good for everyday work much better than 154cm zdp189, and aus8 but i sure do like how a nice sharp zdp cuts nothing is as sharp to me that is but i snap the blades on them the s30v is alot better but just coming from somone who uses and abuses i dont have any idea about making knives. i want a nice knife in cpm3v that will be my next edc.
 
Jerry Hossom said:
Also, lots of people have used S30V blades for a number of sources with no problems at all. I'm not sure why you wanted to single me out as a bad guy here, but I'm hardly unique among knifemakers. Then again, maybe you think like Cliff and believe we are all guilty of hype.

Opinions vary.

BTW, on what basis did you decide D2 and 440C are not prone to chipping? I could ask the same question re VG-10 and AUS8, but no sense in splitting more hairs.
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Jerry, I didn't mean to single you out but from your experience you know each person has his own opinion but just flat out calling someone's test "unreliable" just sound arrogant. Each person is entitled to his current knowledge and understanding of tests performed. My understanding of steel was in the dark ages until I stumbled upon this forum. As the years progressed I came to understand that "proven" steel (carbon or stainless) are the best users. And it just seems that S30v was a hype steel that crucible made to combat overseas competition. Problems with early S30v was not worked out when it was introduced. And it isn't until a year ago that S30v finally became good enough that less people complain about it.

I think, to the best of my understanding, why a lot of people call S30v "hype" steel is because of the number of complaints from forum members when it marketed. On the contrary VG-10, 440c, even Aus8 had pretty much lived up to their name. Basically, Crucible just lied about the toughness of S30v (I do mean the time S30v was introduced and not current production).

I did not mean that D2, 440C, Vg-10, and Aus8 is chip proof, but if you need a chopper that's going to take some damage anyways, why not do it with something cheaper and performs just as well. What I emphasize is there are plenty of other stainless that's tough or maybe tougher than S30v to be choppers and at a fraction of the cost.

P.S. Jerry, thank you for disclosing your heat treat process, at least I can't accuse you of being arrogant and holding the wealth of knowledge all to yourself.:)
 
Jerry, another thing you mentioned is that Paul does your heat treating. We all know Paul is a master at his realm and not many people complains about the knives that he treated. But there are a number of manufacturers like Benchmade and Spyderco who doesn't use Paul, and it's their knives that most people complain about. When people pay an arm or leg for "new super steel" they expect it to perform better than "old super steels". But S30v just :barf: .

This is not directed toward you, Jerry, just trying to point out why S30v is perceived as a "hype steel" because it fell short of its claimed performance.
 
I'm really not sure where you get your information. S30V hasn't changed since it was first introduced. What might have changed is how people use it to make knives, but that is hardly the fault of the steel. As far as I know there has never been a secret about anything associated with S30V, and there is a wealth of information on knifemaking forums about how to use it. Do a search on "quench plates"; you'll find they are often associated with S30V as a means of achieving a very rapid quench which the steel required for proper hardening.

NONE of this is or was a secret. The people who got some of the first lot, made knives, tested knives, and shared with anyone who would listen everything they learned.

S30V is quite different than the steels you mentioned. S30V was developed as a knife steel at the request of knifemakers and companies wanting a tougher stainless than was previously available. It was BTW, developed as a stainless version of CPM-3V, but went through a lot of changes before it was released, and its release date was pushed back a full year to sort out the formula to make it achieve the design objectives. It had nothing to do with foreign competition that I'm aware of. If you mean ATS-34, that steel had gone down hill and was inferior (IMO) to 154CM before the S30V project even began. What competition do you mean?

What change do you KNOW was made to the steel by Crucible since its introduction? I would think that unless you can name specific changes you are pretty seriously slandering Crucible by saying they lied.

BTW, such "wealth" of knowledge as I may possess has always been fully shared with virtually anyone who cared to ask a question or read the volumes I've written on various forums. There are very few secrets in the knife world and VERY few secretive knifemakers.

Reliable tests? Name one... :D

Even the Rockwell hardness test which is a measure of a steel's susceptibility to deformation by being dimpled with a hard point is in fact a poor measure of a steel's susceptibility to deformation in thin sections.

Fact is, there are very few reliable tests of steel behavior in fine edges.
 
Again, you've not provided an argument that the steel has failed. You can't blame the material if it wasn't used properly. Most who've posted in this thread like it. Was their steel different from other S30V? No, it was the same steel, same formula. The steel's fine; the BS is what really... :barf:

Nut, I think you really need to clarify the facts on which you try to base your arguments.
 
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