Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

[singularity35]

Several million scouts for over 100 years have learned with a slip joint. Many learn in Cub Scouts when they are 7-8 years old and a SUBSTANTIAL majority all manage to make through with all their fingers and toes. If your child isn't capable of handling a knife that's your call, but the style of knife isn't the issue- the issue is maturity, training and responsibility- which ultimately come from Mom and Dad (by example).

If you read through all the posts, you'll realize that the argument isn't that the slipjoint is unsafe but rather that a locking folder might prevent injury in the same circumstances when a slipjoint won't. BTW, how many of those 100 years have good quality locking folders been available at the same price that those slip joints were available for?

nobody WANTS to see their child (or yours) get hurt, but it's tough to argue that sometimes the best and most lasting lessons are learned the hard way.

So let's train soldiers with real bullets...

Besides if that's how you roll, how sure are you that there won't be permanent damage?

 

[pinnah]

If you read through all the posts, you'll realize that the argument isn't that the slipjoint is unsafe but rather that a locking folder might prevent injury in the same circumstances when a slipjoint won't.

I found this to be FALSE when teaching my kids.

When I was teaching my kids I quickly realized that the most dangerous part of the learning was the CLOSING of the knife.

Knives with springs snap shut and if the hand can't control the closing and if it's in the wrong place, there's a cut.

This is a danger faced each and every time the knife is used. Children have the low dexterity and low hand strength of ... children.

A friction folder like an Opinel was much easier than a slip joint for my kids to learn to close safely. They could practice where to hold the knife and blade and how to close it without any surprises by the sprung blade.

Slip joints was much easier for my kids to learn to close safely than a spring locking folder. My daughter how has no interest in knives still can't do it safely but she can close a slip joint safely. The issue with frame/liner locks and lockbacks is that you generally have to put your fingers across the blade well when you are disengaging the lock and starting the closing motion. It's that moment and the moment that follows when you need to change your grip to finish the closing that thing go wrong. My wife still recalls the backpacking trip were she bungled the closing of a locking SAK. I can still find the scar on my knuckle where I bungled the closing of my first lockback (Buck 110). This after years of experience with slip joints.

Locking folders with springs are MORE dangerous to close, especially for weak young clumsy hands. Slip joints are much safer to close and unsprung Opinels are safer still.

Last comment... I was very sure to supervise their use for a good long while before letting them keep their knives on their own. IME the number mistake that could cause an accidental closing of a slip joint is a stabbing cut. I've intentionally taught my kids how to do this safely with a slip joint. The key for prevention of closures when starting is supervision. It's a good supervision. It's dad and kid time.

I carry locking folders almost exclusively and agree that in hard use they add safety. But I'm not letting kids loose on hard use yet.

 

[SALTY]

Non-locking blades such as the one describe have been around for a long time. Many good comments in this thread speak to respecting the edge and treating this tool carefully. Keeping the edge sharp and using the knife for and within its intended scope of tasks is also important, both and a safety practice and as a lesson.

 

[singularity35]

Then you just have to choose the appropriate lock. As you mentioned, Opinels would probably be a good choice. I have a slipjoint which I carry almost all the time. It's a boker tree canoe. It sliced the tip of my finger when I was closing it and the blade slipped out of my grasp and snapped closed.

I found this to be FALSE when teaching my kids.

When I was teaching my kids I quickly realized that the most dangerous part of the learning was the CLOSING of the knife.

Knives with springs snap shut and if the hand can't control the closing and if it's in the wrong place, there's a cut.

This is a danger faced each and every time the knife is used. Children have the low dexterity and low hand strength of ... children.

A friction folder like an Opinel was much easier than a slip joint for my kids to learn to close safely. They could practice where to hold the knife and blade and how to close it without any surprises by the sprung blade.

Slip joints was much easier for my kids to learn to close safely than a spring locking folder. My daughter how has no interest in knives still can't do it safely but she can close a slip joint safely. The issue with frame/liner locks and lockbacks is that you generally have to put your fingers across the blade well when you are disengaging the lock and starting the closing motion. It's that moment and the moment that follows when you need to change your grip to finish the closing that thing go wrong. My wife still recalls the backpacking trip were she bungled the closing of a locking SAK. I can still find the scar on my knuckle where I bungled the closing of my first lockback (Buck 110). This after years of experience with slip joints.

Locking folders with springs are MORE dangerous to close, especially for weak young clumsy hands. Slip joints are much safer to close and unsprung Opinels are safer still.

Last comment... I was very sure to supervise their use for a good long while before letting them keep their knives on their own. IME the number mistake that could cause an accidental closing of a slip joint is a stabbing cut. I've intentionally taught my kids how to do this safely with a slip joint. The key for prevention of closures when starting is supervision. It's a good supervision. It's dad and kid time.

I carry locking folders almost exclusively and agree that in hard use they add safety. But I'm not letting kids loose on hard use yet.

 

[Samon]

I Think its fair to say that any knife is potentially unsafe, and that it is our duty to help our kids learn the basics.

Because at the end of it all, we can only guide them and pass down our knowledge. Hog tying them and forcing them into a bubble wrapped caccoon for their own safety isn't really my thing, but preparing them for the real world step at a time is.

Now, im confident I will teach my little ones enough about knife/gun/tool safety so that they don't make blatantly silly choices when on their own. I know when my dad gave me my first knife (a sak copy) he gave me a stern warning of what/how/where to use it correctly and if I did balls up and hurt anyone/myself by being a fool I'd be stripped of my knife and any privilaged responsibilities. Same with our guns!

Needless to say I quickly discovered my little knife wasn't a good stabbing implement and had a few heart racers when I thought I was gona accidentally hurt myself! But don't recall ever doing more than than the odd slice or surface cut to my hhand and I was in the woods every single day! So it can't have been that dangerous for an eager lil' tearaway like myself at 7-8!

Can't say I've ever heard of a sak being used as a weapon, but if its got a sharp bit I'm sure it can do dance! Its likely there are better tools for that job though..

 

[Slip joint fan]

A big vote for using the biggest safety implement, the brain, when knives are involved, no matter a lock or not.

 

[goodeyesniper]

No no no, haven't you heard? Apparently letting someone learn on a slip joint is like teaching your kid to drive in a death trap! It's like teaching your kids to swim in a shark tank! It's like learning to box against a guy with chainsaws for hands! It's like learning paintball with Uzi 9mm submachine guns!

 

[RedLynx]

No no no, haven't you heard? Apparently letting someone learn on a slip joint is like teaching your kid to drive in a death trap! It's like teaching your kids to swim in a shark tank! It's like learning to box against a guy with chainsaws for hands! It's like learning paintball with Uzi 9mm submachine guns!

I wouldn't put it quite like that but, I think the statement I take most issue with in the thread is the repeated "first knife SHOULD be a slipjoint" statements. So far there hasn't been any logical reason why the first knife should be a slipjoint. In fact I think an Opinel or similar friction folder makes a great first knife.

 

[Halfneck]

If you read through all the posts, you'll realize that the argument isn't that the slipjoint is unsafe but rather that a locking folder might prevent injury in the same circumstances when a slipjoint won't. BTW, how many of those 100 years have good quality locking folders been available at the same price that those slip joints were available for?



So let's train soldiers with real bullets...

Besides if that's how you roll, how sure are you that there won't be permanent damage?

We do train soldiers with real bullets.

1st we would plan the exercise > then we would do a slow walk through of the exercise > then we would do a dry run > and finally execute the exercise with live ammo.

Both my boys received a Victorinox Hiker as their 1st knife after earning their Toting Chip in Cub Scouts. Both were very well instructed and made to demonstrate they understood proper knife use & safety prior to getting that Toting Chip. And both being knucklehead boys got cut ignoring those rules. Both got a slight cut to a finger in the way when closing the main blade. Both learned from their mistake.

 

[dogstar]

These days I don't let my slip joints snap closed. From the half-stop position, I grip the blade with my thumb and index finger, guide it back into the handle. Hard to get cut this way, and it protects the edge.

 

[RedLynx]

These days I don't let my slip joints snap closed. From the half-stop position, I grip the blade with my thumb and index finger, guide it back into the handle. Hard to get cut this way, and it protects the edge.

I do let mine snap closed, but only from the half stop position after my fingers are out of the way. Never snapped it closed from the fully open position.

 

[Hawkings]

If you use slip joint the "Wrong" way, most often you will feel it begin to close before it "snaps" shut. this is easy to recognize and you will correct what you are doing.
Pretty much all locking knives will not do this, and if the lock do fail, there is a greater chance of it snapping shut.

One exception to this that I know of, is the side-lock on the large Victorinox swiss army knives, with the red scales( Not the black scales linerlock ones)
It'll start to close 5 or 10 degrees before it reaches the locking part that keeps the blade open.

A Opinel also gives this warning, that the lock is about to disengage, before it does close.

The svord peasant knife also warns you that you are putting pressure on the spine by pressing into your hand.

For what its worth my boy got his slipjoint around 7, might have been 6 though can't remember. and he has not cut himself yet.
I keep the knife when he is not using it, he gets it when he asked for it.

Edit:
He also has a belt knife that he keeps in his room, that I do not keep track of, other then seeing it once in a while. he got it at roughly 7½, he is a little over 8 today.

 

[RedLynx]

If you use slip joint the "Wrong" way, most often you will feel it begin to close before it "snaps" shut. this is easy to recognize and you will correct what you are doing.
Pretty much all locking knives will not do this, and if the lock do fail, there is a greater chance of it snapping shut.

One exception to this that I know of, is the side-lock on the large Victorinox swiss army knives, with the red scales( Not the black scales linerlock ones)
It'll start to close 5 or 10 degrees before it reaches the locking part that keeps the blade open.

A Opinel also gives this warning, that the lock is about to disengage, before it does close.

The svord peasant knife also warns you that you are putting pressure on the spine by pressing into your hand.

For what its worth my boy got his slipjoint around 7, might have been 6 though can't remember. and he has not cut himself yet.
I keep the knife when he is not using it, he gets it when he asked for it.

Edit:
He also has a belt knife that he keeps in his room, that I do not keep track of, other then seeing it once in a while. he got it at roughly 7½, he is a little over 8 today.

Just out of curiosity, why keep the folder but not keep track of the fixed knife? I got in trouble with one of my knives when I was around 7 and it was confiscated by my father, with good reason, but until I did something bad with it, I was trusted with it... I'm in no way questioning your choices, just curious about the different strokes for different folks is all.

 

[chris0827]

If you read through all the posts, you'll realize that the argument isn't that the slipjoint is unsafe but rather that a locking folder might prevent injury in the same circumstances when a slipjoint won't. BTW, how many of those 100 years have good quality locking folders been available at the same price that those slip joints were available for?



So let's train soldiers with real bullets...

Besides if that's how you roll, how sure are you that there won't be permanent damage?

The BSA is all about safety- and they have literally millions of members worldwide. If they aren't safe, why is the official Scout knife still a slip joint, and why does BSA training focus on slip joints? Modern locking folders can be had at the same price point (or lower), yet the scouts still endorse a slip joint... Your logic suggests the oldest youth organization in the world isn't concerned with the safety of its members?

 

[calvinw]

nobody WANTS to see their child (or yours) get hurt, but it's tough to argue that sometimes the best and most lasting lessons are learned the hard way.

No one is arguing for or against this platitude. (It's a platitude, it can't be argued.)

The discussion here is not about the concept of learning lessons, it's about what kind of knife to give to an 11 y.o. The discussion is whether or not THIS is one of those times it's best to learn the lesson the hard way.

 

[calvinw]

The BSA is all about safety- and they have literally millions of members worldwide. If they aren't safe, why is the official Scout knife still a slip joint, and why does BSA training focus on slip joints? Modern locking folders can be had at the same price point (or lower), yet the scouts still endorse a slip joint... Your logic suggests the oldest youth organization in the world isn't concerned with the safety of its members?

You're just deferring to the authority of the BSA. Whatever their position, they could be wrong on the topic.

And, yes, if their position is that the first knife for an 11 y.o. should be a slip joint, then we're all arguing that they're wrong.

 

[goodeyesniper]

I wouldn't put it quite like that but, I think the statement I take most issue with in the thread is the repeated "first knife SHOULD be a slipjoint" statements. So far there hasn't been any logical reason why the first knife should be a slipjoint. In fact I think an Opinel or similar friction folder makes a great first knife.

Of course there is no single wrong or right knife to give them. Saying it MUST be a slip joint is almost as wrong as people saying "no, that's like learning to cut hair with a guillotine!" And other nonsensical analogies that have been floating around this thread.

That fear and knowledge that the knife not only can but WILL close on you if you misuse it might be just what the child needs to reinforce good behavior. It's certainly not the only way to do it, but IMO it is not a bad way to do it.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

My confession is that all the cuts I've received from knives have been from locking knives, usually because of careless opening or closing although yesterday I tested the edge on my Rajah 3 serrated... yes... that was a mistake.

The Victorinox or Wenger I see more as a multi-tool than a knife. My primary reason for carrying one is not the blade, but the tools (mainly scissors). If it was possible to get the tools with a locking blade I'd recommend that. The One Hand Trekker is a good option, but it has fewer tools than the Huntsman pictured. I think the Outrider or WorkChamp might be a good option as they have a good selection of tools and a locking main blade.

 

[hangmanshammer]

why not one of the "compromise" knives from Wenger? I am speaking of the Evo S10, or better yet the S18 (saw, scissors, locking blade) both have decent tool sets for scouting activities.

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

That's a good point. The Wenger S18 can even be found with Scout markings and nice purple scales.