Safety of non-locking folders like Boy Scout & SAK

[singularity35]

No I can't- but the record of organizations like the BSA proves that using a non-locking knife didn't result in any significant level of injuries either.

Agreed but the argument isn't whether a slip joint is unsafe. You are the guys saying that a locking knife is unsafe to learn on because it immediately makes a knife user do stupid things.

Additionally, since you can't say(nobody can) whether a locking knife will be more unsafe to use than a slip joint, then concluding that only slip joints are safe without any data, is not really valid. It's merely a preference without proof and that's all right unless it is presented as fact, which is what you seem to be doing. You're stating that since the BSA has been using only slip joints, therefore using slip joints is the only possible safe method.

It all boils down to training and maturity. If you are properly trained, it doesn't matter what knife you use. If you are improperly trained or if you (or more likely your parents) are stupid... Well, then it's on mom and dad for giving a knife to someone who isn't ready. No locking mechanism can fix stupid.

Wow, you haven't been reading the other posts have you? So since no lock will fix stupid, are you now saying that a slip joint can fix stupid?

 

[singularity35]

I think we are blowing the dangers of locking vs. non-locking out of proportion. As some posters have already said, it's the pointy tool with the sharp edge aspect of all knives that demand the most respect.

Best post. I don't think a locking knife will somehow not instill this fearful respect some posters want... the sharp, pointy edge will do that all on its own, lock or no.

Agreed, but it seems that they want a discussion. I'm willing to oblige.

 

[Nal0n]

Right, and then they make a mistake? Would you prefer your child get hurt from a mistake or would you prefer a better measure of safety?

Well, when you make a mistake and the Slipjoint blade snaps on your finger you will most probably be cut and learn from it.
When you make a mistake that makes the lock fail on a locking knife you will most probably lose the finger as there is much more force needed to make that happen.

What would you prefer happening to your child?

 

[Hawkings]

Just out of curiosity, why keep the folder but not keep track of the fixed knife? I got in trouble with one of my knives when I was around 7 and it was confiscated by my father, with good reason, but until I did something bad with it, I was trusted with it... I'm in no way questioning your choices, just curious about the different strokes for different folks is all.

Well I can see how that seems strange at first glance.

1) Old habits died hard. it was his first knife, so I'd like to know when he had it in his pocket and why. This does not really apply any more other then the habit part.

2) Its an Loewen messer, Think sold style sodbuster with a drop point, somewhere between 2-3 inches closed and carbon steel blade and liner. 8 years old boy aren't really that good at keeping track of small stuff (They or mine at least, try really hard, but small boy brains just don't work like that). if it goes trough the washing machine while still in his pockets it will rust and mess with the wooden scale.
I've had a few of my own do that.

3) It just plain works. no reason to change it until he start questioning it.

 

[WRGreen]

It seem this can go on ad nauseum. One can project a sense of safety or danger into inanimate objects, and also project a sense of respect and responsibility or foolish carelessness into people, especially our children and loved ones, as they are soft reflections of ourselves. Perhaps the slip-joint agenda with Scouting also reflects aspects of nostalgia and social acceptance. The "click" of a blade lock may agitate the mamas enough that when they are unrapping their goods at the bakesale, the dollars don't flow as well, or the flash of a flipper popping open a bundle of fliers may disincline Granny for help across the street. Scouting has had enough existance threatening issues in our social media era, with religion and gender/sexuality issues taking the top spots, and "outraged" parents and politicians cueing up to the cameras like sharks smelling blood. Maybe Scouting is just trying to be innocuous and PC with knives, and trying to be relevant in the present while maintaining the virtues of the past.

 

[the kid]

Don't know if it has been mentioned in another post but the knife in the picture is a Fieldmaster not a Hunter.
I carry one every day, I don't use the saw but for a boyscout it would be very handy.

 

[Bob6794]

In my opinion, learning to use a non-locking knife will benefit a young person most. He will treat the cutting edge and tip with more respect if it can fold back on him with improper use. Probably the best building block in usage for somebody who wants to keep all his fingers long term.

As to your question of such a knife as a self defense weapon, I always have my fingers crossed that the next James Bond or Jason Bourne movie will feature the good guy making do with such an option in a knife mismatch with the bad guy

I have to agree with you that learning on a non-locking knife should be an essential skill. It makes you learn to not rely on a lock so you don't become stupid and start relying on it when you grow up and really start torquing down on the knife the wrong way that forces the lock to work as the potential for injury there shoots up dramatically. Plus if the knife closes on him on a slip joint more than likely it be when he's closing the knife or just starting to use it improperly and it snap shut under the weight of the spring so that's a band-aid and an extremely valuable lesson learned. I use slip joints almost exclusively now and I have no issues. I see locks as something like the lane keeping assist or parking assist features in a car now, it's doing a job your suppose to be doing and you should never rely on it and in fact I'd rather have someone learn to drive on a car without parking assist.

Was it not enough that he used a normal ballpoint pen and not a tactical pen against the bad guy in the first movie? Plus I want to see him take down a bad guy with a SAK, 3 sheets of toilet paper, hand soap, wd40, and a fisher space pen cartridge. MacGyver can do it why can't Bourne or Bond?

 

[singularity35]

Well, when you make a mistake and the Slipjoint blade snaps on your finger you will most probably be cut and learn from it.
When you make a mistake that makes the lock fail on a locking knife you will most probably lose the finger as there is much more force needed to make that happen.

What would you prefer happening to your child?

Why would you assume that the force applied in closing is much greater on a locking folder than on a slipjoint? In any given accident, if the same force is applied to the spine of both a locking knife and a slip joint, which one do you think will close first? Are you making the assumption again that a locking folder will fail with a much greater force because the user is being stupid? If a force is applied is enough to defeat a good quality lock, do you think that that force will not be enough to close a slip joint hard enough to cause the same injury?

 

[singularity35]

I have to agree with you that learning on a non-locking knife should be an essential skill. It makes you learn to not rely on a lock so you don't become stupid and start relying on it when you grow up and really start torquing down on the knife the wrong way that forces the lock to work as the potential for injury there shoots up dramatically. Plus if the knife closes on him on a slip joint more than likely it be when he's closing the knife or just starting to use it improperly and it snap shut under the weight of the spring so that's a band-aid and an extremely valuable lesson learned. I use slip joints almost exclusively now and I have no issues. I see locks as something like the lane keeping assist or parking assist features in a car now, it's doing a job your suppose to be doing and you should never rely on it and in fact I'd rather have someone learn to drive on a car without parking assist.

Was it not enough that he used a normal ballpoint pen and not a tactical pen against the bad guy in the first movie? Plus I want to see him take down a bad guy with a SAK, 3 sheets of toilet paper, hand soap, wd40, and a fisher space pen cartridge. MacGyver can do it why can't Bourne or Bond?

There's the assumption again that all people who use locking knives become automatically stupid. So people who use locking knives become stupid and people who use slip joints won't? That's really ridiculous. I can use both slip joints and locking knives, I don't automatically become stupid when I use my locking knives. LOL

What about people who learn knife use with fixed blades? Will they become smart or stupid? Or will their intelligence stay the same?

 

[pinnah]

I wouldn't put it quite like that but, I think the statement I take most issue with in the thread is the repeated "first knife SHOULD be a slipjoint" statements. So far there hasn't been any logical reason why the first knife should be a slipjoint. In fact I think an Opinel or similar friction folder makes a great first knife.

Again...

Locking folders with back springs are more difficult and dangerous to close, especially for people with hands that are small, weak or that lack dexterity.

Locking folders are designed for men and women with reasonably strong grips and who are used to working with their hands. For people such as us, the lock mechanisms are generally manageable in a safe manner.

But for people who have small hands, weak grips, low dexterity and possible with arthritis (at the other end of the age spectrum from the OP's 11 year old), the lock mechanisms prevent a real danger.

This is not a hypothetical issue for some of us. I've tried to teach my wife to deal with a locking knife to no avail. I've spent repeated hours with my kids supervising their first experiences in handling knives. I've gifted countless knives to friends who've (amazingly) never carried a folding knife and have watched them all struggle at exactly the same point.

The critical moment of truth when closing a locking folder is when you must simultaneously disengage the lock and slightly but not fully close the blade.

I suspect everybody posting in this thread can do this in their sleep (unless arthritis has over taken their hands).

Most 11 year old children cannot.

If the concern is that a slip joint will close on the hand of a clumsy unsupervised child than based on my experience:
a) Get them a small bird and trout fixed blade (I got mine right after I got my BSA slip joint).
b) Supervise them more as they are more likely to injure themselves from unsafe cutting than accidental closing.

 

[SCWillson]

The only time I wold worry about a slipjoint "collapsing" on me would be if I was stabbing something, such as in a self-defense situation.

Having safety devices like blade locking mechanisms on knives or safeties on firearms is a fine idea, depending on them is not. Safe practices with knives, guns, or any other technological device which can cause injury are the best way to avoid getting hurt or hurting someone.

I am the one who is or is not safe, not my knife/gun/chainsaw.

 

[singularity35]

Locking folders with back springs are more difficult and dangerous to close, especially for people with hands that are small, weak or that lack dexterity.

Aren't you lumping all locks into one? And don't slip joints snap shut? They have a pretty strong backspring for the tension to keep them open.

The only time I wold worry about a slipjoint "collapsing" on me would be if I was stabbing something, such as in a self-defense situation.

Having safety devices like blade locking mechanisms on knives or safeties on firearms is a fine idea, depending on them is not. Safe practices with knives, guns, or any other technological device which can cause injury are the best way to avoid getting hurt or hurting someone.

I am the one who is or is not safe, not my knife/gun/chainsaw.

Who ever said we should depend on locks and do stupid things? As has been mentioned before, proper knife use is the key. Just like you don't act stupid with an gun with an engaged safety. The mechanism is there in case of an unforeseen event. It's not going to be used as a substitute for a fixed blade. If a person uses a locking knife that way, then he'd probably be as stupid with a slip joint.

We're back again to the premise that locks make a person stupid when using a knife. Do you guys have any data supporting your premise that slip joints make a user smarter and locks make a person stupid?

 

[skyhorse]

Safety is in the hand of the holder... The scouts should be teaching the safety techniques required.

Bingo,the best safety ever designed is the one between your ears.

 

[singularity35]

Bingo,the best safety ever designed is the one between your ears.

That's been agreed on way back in this thread if you ever bothered to read the posts. The problem is that some people think that being safety conscious is the exclusive province of slip joint users and that locking knife users become automatically stupid.

 

[pinnah]

There's the assumption again that all people who use locking knives become automatically stupid. So people who use locking knives become stupid and people who use slip joints won't? That's really ridiculous.

Welcome to the weird, non-rational world of risk management.

I don't pull this tidbit out very often but I will hear for this discussion. Just to clarify, I'm not talking about the slip joint vs locking folder argument as it relates to adults, not young children.

I don't usually mention this, but I actually work as a scientist/engineer in a field that regularly deals with risk management decisions. It turns out, the human brain is hard wired to deal with risk in non-rational ways so things get counter-intuitive very fast.

The standard way to explain this knife discussion is in terms of Risk Compensation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Risk compensation is widely studied and generally accepted. The effect is that when people are given "safety equipment" they tend to engage in riskier behavior.

Drivers with anti-lock brakes drive faster and more aggressively.

Skiers with helmets ski faster.

Boxers who fight with gloves tend to suffer more profound brain injuries (the fight longer and rattle their brains loose).

The use of pads and helmets in football lead to more profound brain and neck injuries (the game speeds up).

Climbers who carry helmets climb into the face of rock fall danger instead of retreating (documented by climbing instructor Paul Petzold).


If you want "evidence" that people use locking folders in riskier ways than they use sloppy slip joints, just read this forum.

Side note for Carl: perhaps we can find middle ground on the Opinel. I view the lock ring as a stiff back spring. Nobody in their right mind would think than an Opinel can withstand hard, prolonged closing force. In this way, it's more like a stiff slip joint on which you can "turn off" the spring.

 

[singularity35]

That's not really evidence. That's just conjecture on your part to support your stance.

So we really should go back to the 1930's where cars were death traps in accidents? You mean all those studies and breakthroughs in safety devices were for naught because they make people stupid?

Or do just have more stupid people today?

You shouldn't be taking two different people and comparing their behavior with or without safety gear. It should be one person with specific habits compared to himself.

Welcome to the weird, non-rational world of risk management.

I don't pull this tidbit out very often but I will hear for this discussion. Just to clarify, I'm not talking about the slip joint vs locking folder argument as it relates to adults, not young children.

I don't usually mention this, but I actually work as a scientist/engineer in a field that regularly deals with risk management decisions. It turns out, the human brain is hard wired to deal with risk in non-rational ways so things get counter-intuitive very fast.

The standard way to explain this knife discussion is in terms of Risk Compensation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_compensation

Risk compensation is widely studied and generally accepted. The effect is that when people are given "safety equipment" they tend to engage in riskier behavior.

Drivers with anti-lock brakes drive faster and more aggressively.

Skiers with helmets ski faster.

Boxers who fight with gloves tend to suffer more profound brain injuries (the fight longer and rattle their brains loose).

The use of pads and helmets in football lead to more profound brain and neck injuries (the game speeds up).

Climbers who carry helmets climb into the face of rock fall danger instead of retreating (documented by climbing instructor Paul Petzold).


If you want "evidence" that people use locking folders in riskier ways than they use sloppy slip joints, just read this forum.

Side note for Carl: perhaps we can find middle ground on the Opinel. I view the lock ring as a stiff back spring. Nobody in their right mind would think than an Opinel can withstand hard, prolonged closing force. In this way, it's more like a stiff slip joint on which you can "turn off" the spring.

 

[Bob6794]

There's the assumption again that all people who use locking knives become automatically stupid. So people who use locking knives become stupid and people who use slip joints won't? That's really ridiculous. I can use both slip joints and locking knives, I don't automatically become stupid when I use my locking knives. LOL

What about people who learn knife use with fixed blades? Will they become smart or stupid? Or will their intelligence stay the same?

Now you're just taking what I am saying out of context and putting your own spin on it.

You can think of it as a learning aid as it will provide instant feedback because if you put pressure on the spine you will start seeing it close. That feedback helps you learn so you don't accidently start relying on that lock, as a locking knife won't give you any feedback until it fails. Something that I think is invaluable when you are learning is getting instant feedback on whether you're doing something right or wrong and that is where the slip joint excels when you are learning how to use pocket knife.

 

[singularity35]

Now you're just taking what I am saying out of context and putting your own spin on it.

You can think of it as a learning aid as it will provide instant feedback because if you put pressure on the spine you will start seeing it close. That feedback helps you learn so you don't accidently start relying on that lock, as a locking knife won't give you any feedback until it fails. Something that I think is invaluable when you are learning is getting instant feedback on whether you're doing something right or wrong and that is where the slip joint excels when you are learning how to use pocket knife.

And you don't get feedback when you use a locking knife? Besides, what do you guys use folding knives for that you are so scared of having the lock fail? If you are stressing a folding knife enough to make a lock fail, then a slip joint will have failed long before. You're also assuming that the person using the locking knife has no common sense. Even if your knife is not folding, you are getting feedback. The knife will flex long before it fails. The flex is the feedback, it's up to you to recognize what kind of feedback your tool is giving.

Besides you are the guys saying that locks make people do stupid things, in short making normal people stupid, no?

 

[Bob6794]

And you don't get feedback when you use a locking knife? Besides, what do you guys use folding knives for that you are so scared of having the lock fail?

Besides you are the guys saying that locks make people do stupid things, in short making normal people stupid, no?

Once again spinning what I say out of context. The feedback both visual and what you feel are drastically different and more noticeable in the slip joint when you put pressure in the wrong way it will tell you far more in advance than a locking knife that you're doing something wrong. That instant feedback HELPS people learn. Should they have known in advance not to do that, yup. But lets be honest people do stuff like that anyway, I'd rather have someone or something tell them "what your doing is wrong" early on that they can't ignore than something that let them use something that let them continue what their doing.

Can you teach someone to be safe on a locking knife, yup you sure can. But I think a slip joint is a superior learning tool for the reason stated. I think the small risk up front to help insure you develop proper skills is far better in the long run.

What do I use a knife that would make a lock fail, nothing. Now what would someone use a knife for that is under the assumption the lock won't ever fail, use your imagination. I've had people who had access to my room before destroy one of my knives by using it as a throwing knife (didn't know about it till after it happened), seen others stab tree stumps/boards/etc, and the list goes on because they were under this weird magical assumption that locks don't fail. But they all knew and respected slip joints from what I could tell, or at least feared them. But lets be blunt these people were not the norm, they were well idiots.

 

[goodeyesniper]

And you don't get feedback when you use a locking knife? Besides, what do you guys use folding knives for that you are so scared of having the lock fail? If you are stressing a folding knife enough to make a lock fail, then a slip joint will have failed long before. You're also assuming that the person using the locking knife has no common sense. Even if your knife is not folding, you are getting feedback. The knife will flex long before it fails. The flex is the feedback, it's up to you to recognize what kind of feedback your tool is giving.

Besides you are the guys saying that locks make people do stupid things, in short making normal people stupid, no?

Literally nobody in this thread is saying any of those things.