Sandvik Hardening Guide

Dog of War said:
Exactly the way I feel. These Sandvik steels have really changed my thinking, I just don't find myself particularly interested in anything else anymore.
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I'll still be partial to M2 and S7, but the Swedish strip steels are more pleasing for me in my day-to-day cutting.
 
thombrogan said:
I'll still be partial to M2 and S7, but the Swedish strip steels are more pleasing for me in my day-to-day cutting.
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No real experience with S7, but M2 at high hardness can be wonderful stuff. But then given that 12C27 and 13C26 are tougher than M2, that along with their stainlessness (???) and ready availability ... well, you just gotta love 'em.

I see a growing Fine Grain, Low/Small Carbide Fan Club developing here. What have we got, you, Larrin, Jerker, me ... ? Not exactly a groundswell movement yet I guess, but I remain hopeful!
 
Aside from toughness; raw, nasty, heartless toughness; S7 is just steel.

Yeah, the Swedish Strip Steel Fanclub! It's not just us, though - there are knifemaking companies and knifemakers in Botswana, Japan, some continent called "Europe" :confused: , South Africa, and the USA (Kershaw and Bark River).

Swedish Stainless Strip Steel:

Everyone loves it; not everyone knows it.
 
There are better steels for knives than S7 and M2. M2 doesn't have a completely fine microstructure, meaning while the edge stability is pretty good the toughness isn't that great. CPM-M4 has greater toughness and similar edge stability. There aren't a lot of steels in the medium-high wear resistance range along with medium-high edge stability though. S7 can't get much harder than 57Rc, so unless you're making a sword there are other steels with high toughness that can also be taken to a higher hardness. Even S5 has greater toughness and can be hardened to 60 Rc, but it's not air hardening. Also, there is an interesting question with toughness, because there will be no further benefit by using a steel with more toughness if the toughness you have is already adequate. How much is enough? Who's going to use it? If L6 has enough toughness for a sword with an impact toughness of ~70 ft. lbs., does it matter if S5 can withstand 150 ft. lbs. at the same hardness?

Sorry, I guess I'm getting a little off the subject of Sandvik.
 
Good points, Larrin. I like S7 because its edge doesn't dent or chip when I chop aggravating material (pitch-covered wood wrapped in worn, plastic berber carpetting) and it was available. Availability is also why I like barely-tempered M2 over F2. I would want S5 if I could get it in flat-ground stock at an affordable price, too, but my S5 and F2 desires are a fantasy built around numbers where as my enjoyment of Blue Super, White #2, M2, S7, 12C27M, 13C26, and AEB-L are based on my meager experiences (and the same with my enjoyment of 19C27, ZDP-189, and SG-2...).
 
Interesting thread.

Larrin said:
Also, there is an interesting question with toughness, because there will be no further benefit by using a steel with more toughness if the toughness you have is already adequate. How much is enough? Who's going to use it? If L6 has enough toughness for a sword with an impact toughness of ~70 ft. lbs., does it matter if S5 can withstand 150 ft. lbs. at the same hardness?
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This is really the question in many debates. The difficulty seems to be in defining "tough enough".
 
I'd like to get my hands on an CPM M4 blade. For non-stainless, I'm wondering if there's a factor other than cost where M4 and 3V would come up short.

on topic, sort of - snagged some EKA executives in 12C27 off the bay, and used my compact to help clean some trout. The steel works fine for me, and I like the sharing of info.
 
hardheart said:
I'd like to get my hands on an CPM M4 blade. For non-stainless, I'm wondering if there's a factor other than cost where M4 and 3V would come up short.

on topic, sort of - snagged some EKA executives in 12C27 off the bay, and used my compact to help clean some trout. The steel works fine for me, and I like the sharing of info.
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You want to borrow a CPM M4 Krein Ultimate Caper? It has a .007" edge and is full hollow ground, so it isn't really a great chopper, but it makes quite the precision cutter.

Mike
 
Broos said:
This is really the question in many debates. The difficulty seems to be in defining "tough enough".
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Not for me. 5160 quenched and then tempered a few times down to about RC58 is more than tough enough for even the stupid things I do. I have no need for the added toughness of lower bainite in that alloy or just the added toughness of S5, S7, or 4350-mod. for that matter; I just want it anyways.

Getting closer back to topic, people possibly interested in a Swedish Stainless Strip Steels fanclub?

Jerker?
Dog of War
me
Larrin?
Gunmike1?
hardheart?

Two definites and lots of possibles. Anyone else? If it matters, most of the SSSS love will be for Sandvik as they actually risk wasting their time on these forums and are helping a major manufacturer in the USA continue to exceed their customers expectations.
 
Count me in the fanclub. Super sharp and very acute beats out all day sawing performance for me (from S30V and the like). The stain resistance and toughness is an added bonus. After using Larrin's Santoku I am really sold on the Swedish strip steels.

Mike
 
Joining depends on the benefits of belonging to such a club. If the only benefit is being on a list of members, than it is little better than belonging to such a club by simply being a fan of such products.
 
When a blocky carbide coup is held, we'll be the publicly-named dissidents whom are publicly rounded up for re-education or extermination.
 
OK, I'll join. For the first discussion I recommend 19C27. There are very few stainless steels that have a combination of good to very good edge stability and wear resistance. 12C27 has excellent edge stability and average wear resistance, and S30V has excellent wear resistance and average edge stability. 13C26 has excellent edge stability and better wear resistance than any of the common forging grades but has low wear resistance compared to the "super steels" for applications required coarser sharpenings or slicing abrasive materials. However with EDC knives some sharpen to high grits and make push cuts, some prefer coarser grits and like to slice, and some do both depending on the required material to cut, the steel must be able to handle both types of cutting with good edge retention for our demanding knife enthusiast requirements. While for kitchen knives, tactical knives, razors, or larger knives requiring toughness, 12C27/AEB-L/13C26 is a no brainer, EDC knives must offer several aspects of performance. Different users can decide if greater edge stability or toughness is required in their knife (so select 13C26), or if they need more wear resistance (so move to CPM-154 or S30V). VG-10 is good, but the edge stability isn't as good as I would like. CPM-154 simply has too great a carbide volume to have much edge stability.

Have no fear though, 19C27 has good edge stability and wear resistance, as well as very good toughness. Those that enjoy the properties of VG-10 would find a welcome friend in 19C27. I think it is a great choice for EDC knives or those looking for a little more wear resistance in kitchen knives. I think it was a little too conservative of Sandvik to state it as only a rope cutting steel in the hardening guide. It is when compared to 12C27 and 13C26, perhaps, but it has lower carbide volume than many of the common knife steels like VG-10, S30V, CPM-154, etc. It is also capable of very high hardness, it is easy to heat treat to 63 Rc or higher if desired. It is also quite inexpensive, especially when compared to the PM grades. I'd say its major downfall is average at best corrosion resistance. Though the corrosion resistance is fine for me, others might prefer something they can neglect completely.
 
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gunmike1 said:
You want to borrow a CPM M4 Krein Ultimate Caper? It has a .007" edge and is full hollow ground, so it isn't really a great chopper, but it makes quite the precision cutter.

Mike
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appreciate the offer, but I'm looking into getting a small custom made already :D

did some cutting today, setting up a new fridge. EKA Compact wouldn't shave when I got home. bummer. Walked over to my sharpening gear, picked up the strop, less than a minute later, oh yeah. It's nice not having to spend more time honing than you did cutting. I'm still getting an M4 knife :p
 
thombrogan said:
Getting closer back to topic, people possibly interested in a Swedish Stainless Strip Steels fanclub?
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Dog is definitely down with that :) consider me signed up.

If the fanclub does nothing more than encourage Jerker to post and share more of his knowledge with us, that's definitely worth the price of membership (uh, though I'm assuming it's free. :) )

hardheart said:
did some cutting today, setting up a new fridge. EKA Compact wouldn't shave when I got home. bummer. Walked over to my sharpening gear, picked up the strop, less than a minute later, oh yeah. It's nice not having to spend more time honing than you did cutting.
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EKA compact is a real sleeper, no? When I first got mine, I thought it looked like a large, blue kidney bean or something. It took a couple sharpenings to bring out the full edge-holding potential ... but it's been my primary "desk knife" for better than a year now, and it's a great cutter.
 
Larrin said:
OK, I'll join. For the first discussion I recommend 19C27.
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Swedish, stainless, and steel, but where's the strip? 19C27 is an awesome steel! I no longer have any knives in that steel, but do have some in copycat alloys (VG-1 and MBS-26) and they behave almost as good.

In the foodie realm, it's funny to see that some recommend VG-10 over 19C27 for ease of sharpening at the expensive of edge-retention. Well, with push-cutting as seen in gyutos and sujihikis, the edge-retention comment is correct, but when VG-10 abrades better than 19C27, it's either softer or ground thinner. More amusing is that Cold Steel is now using VG-1 and Krupp 4116 in knives expecting to see harder uses. I know LT is fond of food (me too; it's delicious!), but does he do his steel research at eGullett?

hardheart said:
did some cutting today, setting up a new fridge. EKA Compact wouldn't shave when I got home. bummer. Walked over to my sharpening gear, picked up the strop, less than a minute later, oh yeah. It's nice not having to spend more time honing than you did cutting.
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That's awesome! And makes me wish I ordered more than a fixed blade in 12C27 from Ragnar :(

Dog of War said:
Dog is definitely down with that :) consider me signed up.

If the fanclub does nothing more than encourage Jerker to post and share more of his knowledge with us, that's definitely worth the price of membership (uh, though I'm assuming it's free. :) )
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There is no direct financial cost (no check going anywhere), but there's the constant reading up on these steels; use and enjoyment of these steels; and fawning over and purchase of knives using these steels. Tonight, I'll try my hand at setting up one of them there user groups, too.
 
thombrogan said:
Getting closer back to topic, people possibly interested in a Swedish Stainless Strip Steels fanclub?
snip...

most of the SSSS love will be for Sandvik as they actually risk wasting their time on these forums and are helping a major manufacturer in the USA continue to exceed their customers expectations.
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For that reason alone they are worth having a bunch of fans. Yes even me even though I'm not one of the carbide theory believers. Heck I'm still not even sure what the edge stability term really means, but it seems to have become quite the catch phrase.
:) We don't have to strip to join do we? :)
 
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