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wouldnt labor and manufacturing be the same thing? you can't manufacture something without someone doing it (labor).
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SanRenMu 710
- Thread starter John E Woven
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wouldnt labor and manufacturing be the same thing? you can't manufacture something without someone doing it (labor).
Well, in manufacturing cost there is a plant operation cost (maintenance, electric bill, taxes etc). You can put labor in there too. I just wanted to separate those things.
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ahhhh i got you now, i know that as operation costs in my trade so just wanted to clarify what you meant...I wonder if operation costs are something they even are concerned about in china? how would a communist country associate a public utility on a business? (i know nothing about how china operates in industry).
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Sal Glesser
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So based on the above quote, if you built the Tenacious (MSRP $54.95) in Golden we could expect an MSRP of about $275?
Even if you back out 25% for import cost the MSRP would be about $41, or if built here $205.
That means that (theoretically anyway) you could build the Military and Para-Military (Base models) in China to exact Golden specs, and then import them here and sell them for the same price as a Tenacious.
I would collect the whole line if you did that
It's not quite that cut and dried, for example, steel costs make a big difference in that theory. The powdered metals that we get here are not available in China and sending steel there is complicated and their duties are high, plus here is a storage fee for storing non Chinese steel in China.
sal
well the SRM710 is very similar to a sebenza, but that's besides the point
my point was that if someone is selling counterfeit knives, then yes that is a concern because they are misrepresenting the original manufacturer and hurting their brand.
however, if they are selling their own brand knives, even if the designs are similar to existing high-end knives, i don't think it would matter much. the reason we all buy these expensive knives is because we appreciate the quality offered by them. the person who is happy with a $20 knock off is not the person who would drop $150 on a production folder anyways. so they're technically not really "stealing business"
Thanks Sal. This explains a lot. Didn't know that they make importing and storing non Chinese steel so complicated. I wonder how much it adds to the cost (probably will never know).
Tsujigiri
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Interesting... I take it that the same isn't true of Taiwan? I know that Spyderco makes some knives using American steel in Taiwan. The production must be cheaper there because the materials and build in knives like the Gayle Bradley would make the street price much higher if it was made in the US.
Sal Glesser
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We think we can US steel (we're working on that now) we believe it could at the most double the cost.
sal
Sal Glesser
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There is no steel made in Taiwan that I know of, at least not knife steel. By shipping steel to Taiwan (which is costly and time consuming), we do add cost, nbut we want to use certain steels for certain models.
We same some on labor, maybe 25%. Yes, the GB made in the US would cost more than the current production. We use a particular maker in Taiwan because of their ability to produce high quality.
sal
Can we expect something like Chinese made S30V Tenacious with MSRP around $80 and street price around $50?
FLymon
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I understand, and I don't really think you could build the Military for 1/5 the cost.
Just the actual labor would be 1/5 the cost and the cost of having to export, then ship, then import, then store the CPM steel. Then export, then ship, then finally import the Chinese knife with the CPM steel would probably eat those savings up.
I do appreciate your responses.
No matter what happens with the imports I believe that the innovators who keep moving will be just fine. So based on decades of history, you guys are probably pretty safe. :thumbup:
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Well unfortunately this kind of thing has always happened and will probably continue to happen on into the future. A few years ago when I was making for the first time some mini titanium pry bars a company rep got in touch with me interested in looking at them after seeing one. I sent him one at his request only to notice shortly after that they were now offering a mini ti pry bar. When I asked him about that,since it looked similar to mine his answer was rather telling. I later learned that the quote response he gave me was a few lines from a somewhat famous song by RUSH, Entre Nous. "Just between us, I think its time for us to realize the spaces in between leave room for us to grow". Basically I took from that that he was suggesting there are enough differences between the two to make them unique thanking me for the influence or inspiration to come up with his own version and like the song seems to indicate we are two planets to each other, drifting in our orbits to a brief eclipse, alone and yet together like two passing ships. Influencing each other as we roll through our routines and so on.
Later when I submitted a proto-type folder to a company for potential it was rejected as others have been when I had some bold idea (or at least it seemed that way at the time) and later noticed some new knife in their line up that sure seemed pretty dang close there is not much one can do about it but snicker and move on you know? It happens. Such is life I guess. So if we look at the 710 and the Sebenza we can see one was influenced by the other but when you compare them and really compare them there are a lot of spaces inbetween. At least that was what I got out of a response from a corporate entity when I dealt with something like this. When you look at that Ganzo copy of the 14205 there are not many spaces left because it seems to be pretty much neck and neck apples to apples the same dang knife with a different name stamped on it. But that is Ganzo, not Sanrenmu. So that was my point.
STR
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Actually, that is a Ganzo knife.
Land is Sanrenmu but, as far as I know, Ganzo is not. Or maybe they are. Hell, I don't know, they (SRM/Land/Ganzo/Enlan/Bee/Navy/etc) could all be the same entity, who knows?
Right my bad. Mixed them up myself. Good call and thanks for spotting it. :thumbup:
Obviously I don't have one of those. I only got the 710 out of curiousidy to see what all the fuss was about on it. It has merit but its not a Sebenza. The Bradley Alias has more in common with the Sebenza. The Boker Anti MC Plus has more similarity to many William & Henry models yet no one mentions these at all although one could argue that they are obviously closely matching in many ways. In the end though people realize this $50 Boker does not begin to touch the status or finish of the W & H.
STR
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While I agree with your criticisms of our so called premium, USA brands, I still fail to see how you can buy these knock offs and be any kind of satisfied.
Regardless, I'll continue to carry my Sebenza and pretty much avoid anything else because you get real quality and finish without the shame.
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I have always called it like I see it. I look at each knife as if it were sterile forgetting the logo on the blade or who is behind it giving the knives the chance to speak for themselves. There are some guys in the industry I could do without and some deeds done by some of these guys I don't much care for but they make some great folders. I can't let my personal feelings or the fact that its made somewhere else interfere with my call for whether the knife has merit or not you know? I mean if its good it deserves credit when due just like anything else.
By the way, I have a Sebenza. I've owned several both large and small as well as Strider, I have a PT and many other USA made products. I was not in the market for another Sebenza, PT or Emerson when I bought the 710. I was in the market for a cheap beater and I was curious as to what all the talk was about. The 710 qualified for what I wanted which was a cheap travel knife I could carry across state lines or into cities where I don't want to risk losing one of my good ones in todays political environment of crack downs. The Sebenza did not qualify for this so thats how I can be satisfied with one of these just as easily as I can be satisfied with the Spyderco Persistence and Tenacious both of which I rated quite highly also and both of which are made for Spyderco in China.
STR
This is probably only me, I would not pay $50 on a Chinese made knife regardless steel when you can get a S30V USA made Vantage Pro for less. Obvious choice to most, isn't it?
This is probably only me, I would not pay $50 on a Chinese made knife regardless steel when you can get a S30V USA made Vantage Pro for less. Obvious choice to most, isn't it?
I don't know if I would pay $50 for it either, but if one wants S30V, FFG and spydiehole, then the choice is not that obvious.
I would much prefer a quality ATS-34, for example, for about $20. Hope SRM can do something like this.
ATS-34 is a Japanese steel, and I am pretty positive that you wouldn't see it in any Chinese knives. The best steel you can get is 9Cr18MoV.