SanRenMu 710

[J85909266]

First two bolded sentences do not really go together, unless I'm misreading them.

I do not care that there are knockoffs. I know that there will always be knockoffs, and that people will always buy them.

What bothers me is to see praise and support for them in the knife enthusiast community. And not just because they are knockoffs, but that I would hope that enthusiasts would care a little more. It's not Sanranmu that I'm say about, it's the people here raving about them.

If Frosts an Mtech were of exceptional quality, would they suddenly have a following, as well? Like I said, it's disappointing.

 

[oxbld]

If Frosts an Mtech were of exceptional quality, would they suddenly have a following, as well? Like I said, it's disappointing.

Yes. If they were of exceptional quality, they would have a following.

Back to the knives, what do the people with the "axis lock" Chinese knives think of them? Like the Ganzo copy of the HK and the SanRenMu 962.

I have both.

The SRM 962 is a little heavy and has micarta scales that are fairly thick. The blade is 8cr13mov like other SRM's. It was sharp enough for me out of the box. I think this would work better than the 710 for heavy-duty work, mainly because the grip fills my hand.

The Ganzo has grippy g10 scales and the blade is really thick and made of what they call 440c, probably 9cr18mov or something like that. The knife wasn't as sharp as I liked out of the box, but I got it shaving pretty easily with crock sticks. I really wish this one wasn't a freakin counterfiet, because it is a decent knife. However, I plan on buying the HK 14205 now because of it.

The axis locks seem pretty smooth on both, but I have not purchased a Benchmade to compare them to yet.

 

[Smelly]

Before you read anything I have to say please bear in mind that I am a novice when it comes to knives and my budget does not run to the more expensive western brands. I like knives and use them as a tool every day.

I have owned a SRM 962 axis lock for a few weeks now and I am pleased with it for the price. Like all the Sanrenmus I have used, it is in my humble opinion, a useful tool and good value. After such a short period of time I can't say how well the spring will hold up. I find it a little large for an EDC in my jeans pocket so I prefer to carry a 710. I also prefer the ability to close the 710 single handed rather than the method I use with the axis lock which is single handed and single thigh!

There is definitely room in the market for them but as to whether they appeal to serious enthusiasts like most of the members of this forum is another question.

 

[ayz]

again, in the case of most cheap chinese knockoffs, there is a noticeable difference in quality and thus it does not threaten much of these high end manufacturer's markets

if there are cheap chinese clones that are being made with comparable quality, then the american manufacturers need to rethink their business model because it's not sustainable

 

[00max00]

again, in the case of most cheap chinese knockoffs, there is a noticeable difference in quality and thus it does not threaten much of these high end manufacturer's markets

if there are cheap chinese clones that are being made with comparable quality, then the american manufacturers need to rethink their business model because it's not sustainable

Cheap Chinese products are not sustainable either, as people in China demands higher wage, social unrest, the cost of doing business will be eventually growing to a balance point where the cost of labor, ship raw material to and finished products from, custom duty etc, to be equal or more expensive than if made right here. Nothing last forever.

 

[shecky]

What bothers me is to see praise and support for them in the knife enthusiast community. And not just because they are knockoffs, but that I would hope that enthusiasts would care a little more. It's not Sanranmu that I'm say about, it's the people here raving about them.

I do care more. That's why I like Sanrenmu knives. Because they are good. I praise quality where it exists.

If Frosts an Mtech were of exceptional quality, would they suddenly have a following, as well?

Umm... yes.

 

[Sep]

If Frosts an Mtech were of exceptional quality, would they suddenly have a following...

Yes.

Do you think people buy Strider knives because they love Mick Strider? Good quality will (eventually) be recognized, and that is fair.

 

[tipoc]

From post 22 of this thread:

It's ridiculous to get so whiny about copies. Copying is a fact of life in many industries. Not only cutlery.

Copying isn't wrong. No matter how many hurt feelings it causes. It only begins to be wrong when it's a violation of actual intellectual property. And even then, the burden is pretty much on the IP holder to defend their IP.

Emphasis added.

The poster above states that it is only wrong when it is illegal and a trademark infringement law has been violated. I think this view is wrong.

Copying is wrong when you change the name slightly and market it to make a a profit off another designers work without giving the original designer either the credit for the work or a cut of the profit. It is both ethically and morally wrong. Sometimes it is also legally wrong, but not always, and sometimes the copiers cannot be punished for it. But it is still, even if not illegal, wrong!

The copier has consciously stolen something from the original designer in order to advance themselves. It does not matter a bit if it is "a fact of life in many industries". It only makes it more shameful when it is excused.

tipoc

 

[shecky]

The poster above states that it is only wrong when it is illegal and a trademark infringement law has been violated. I think this view is wrong.

Copying is wrong when you change the name slightly and market it to make a a profit off another designers work without giving the original designer either the credit for the work or a cut of the profit. It is both ethically and morally wrong. Sometimes it is also legally wrong, but not always, and sometimes the copiers cannot be punished for it. But it is still, even if not illegal, wrong!

The copier has consciously stolen something from the original designer in order to advance themselves. It does not matter a bit if it is "a fact of life in many industries". It only makes it more shameful when it is excused.

The problem with this view is it asserts that a designer should be afforded intellectual property rights, even if he never bothered to apply for intellectual property rights. When a designer has a unique design, and it's uniqueness is officially recognized, he gets a monopoly to exploit as a result of that recognition. You're saying that even if a designer has not, or could not get that kind of legally binding recognition, he should be granted some kind of monopoly anyways. Just because he should.

Good luck with that. Knife nuts seem to want to make this some kind of issue about honor. That's fine and dandy. Once upon a time it was. But this stuff has already been hashed out, the value of all that honor has been quantified, and the result if pretty much what we have now. If you want protection, you need to take the necessary steps to earn it. If you can't or won't, then the issue of copying is nothing more than a subjective finger wagging exercise to be taken up at one's leisure. Unfair, you say? Unethical? Immoral? Boo hoo! Nobody ever said designing knives was the key to privilege and success.

 

[donovanl12]

I love my 710 and 962. I got mine off of www.exduct.com

 

[Sal Glesser]

The credit for bringing China to market economy belongs to Deng Xiaoping, whose ideology is so different from Mao's that he was purged twice by Mao during the cultural revolution.

In many ways China is more capitalistic than the western world. Since you are familiar with how business is done in China (just about anything can be had for a price), you should agree.

China remains nominally communist because people on top doesn't want to give up their power. Simple as that.

Hi Sep,

defined as you have, I cannot disagree with you. I was more referring to individual's profit, not politics.

sal

 

[tipoc]

From Shecky...

The problem with this view is it asserts that a designer should be afforded intellectual property rights, even if he never bothered to apply for intellectual property rights...

We are speaking not in the abstract but in the concrete. The knives we are speaking of are patented. If Sabenza, or Kershaw, Spyderco or Buck develop a design and set it into production it is wrong for another company to produce a copy of the blade and market it on their own, for their profit without consent and with no royalties paid or given to the originator of the design. The practice is wrong ethically and morally it is also often illegal.

Decades back Spanish gun manufacturers produced inferior copies of Smith and Wesson revolvers. At the time no patent laws prevented the Spanish from doing so. It took some years before Spanish law recognized international patents. But the practice was unethical befrore the law caught up with the practice. When the Czech firm of CZ developed the CZ75 sidearm no patent laws prevented the design from being widely copied in NATO nations of Europe, without royalties being paid. The practice was wrong even if not illegal.

A fly by night cowboy capitalist in China can sell copies of knives on EBay and duck the law for a few years. But it's still wrong.

The morality that argues that "until I am caught I am not doing anything wrong" may be the morality of a good capitalist but it's nothing you can build much on.

tipoc

 

[cziv]

Intellectual property rights or copyright and patent laws are similar but quite different from my understanding. This, if an issue, is a patent law issue.

Do you think for a minute that every knife maker checks with the inventor of a unique idea before they make something similar and incorporate it? I doubt it.

I agree with those that say these aren't knock-offs or copies but knives with similar ideas and shapes that are parallel to some existing ideas.

How many damages checks would Jim Bowie's estate be reeling in if his intellectual rights to the Bowie design was sought after and granted?

Anyone who says the SMR 710 is a copy of the Sebenza has rocks in their heads. A Sebenza is a work of art, compare them side by side. The SMR 710 is a cheap knife with a resemblance to it's outward appearance only and vague at best. My $.02

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hu Tipoc,

I'd love to have a penny for every clip out there.

I believe you are promoting honor? (not a good investment in todays world)

sal

 

[2brothers]

Hu Tipoc,

I'd love to have a penny for every clip out there.

I believe you are promoting honor? (not a good investment in todays world)

sal

Nothing wrong with honor. I'm glad most of my clients believe I am an honorable person.

 

[ayz]

"patent rights" lol you guys act like these companies are spending hundreds of millions of dollars on the visual design of their knives. i suppose everyone that makes a black home theater receiver with a volume knob owes JVC and Sony a royalty, and everyone that makes a touchscreen phone owes apple a royalty.

there's something to be said for the IP rights in the steel and heat treatment and manufacturing process. as to the actual visual design itself, well, that's debatable

 

[tipoc]

I'd love to have a penny for every clip out there.

So would I. But it ain't that that we are speaking of is it?

Would you maybe want a penny, or at least feel you deserved one, if the clip was the same shape as yours, had a Spydy on it, had the same shaped blade and handle as a Military, had a Spydy hole in the blade for an opener and was being sold by a fella in Vancouver as a "Spiderman Blade". Made of inferior materials and fit of course. Marvel comics might be upset as well. It's that, that we are speaking of.

If you drop by EBay you'll see a few fake Buck knives. Made by someone in H.K. Anyone familiar with Bucks can tell at a glance that these are fakes. The seller is not trying to sell to them. He targets people who don't know the difference.

The SanRenMu is an obvious attempt to cash in on another fellas design.

All bicycles have two wheels. If a make a bike I am not robbing a fella. But if I print Schwinn on the side maybe I oughta get my butt kicked.

After Buck introduced the 110 Gerber, Schrade, and many others came out with their own lock backs. Visually quite different and some alight variations internally. No problem there. But if a fella makes an identical copy of the Buck 110-cheaper materials and quality of course (gotta make a dollar after all) and calls it a Book 210 to trap the unwary. Than he's moved into funky town.

tipoc

 

[STR]

-The SanRenMu is an obvious attempt to cash in on another fellas design.

tipoc

Loveless, Randall, Marbles, Lile, Moran, Bowie, Scagel, and more are all countless times copied in the industry to this day, not all of them sanctioned or even known about by the original designer. Its innocent enough I suppose and even seen many times as the highest form of flattery when people contribute something of their own after obviously being influenced by others and even motivated by their idol's contributions to the industry. So, cashing in as you say can be seen a couple of ways. We can immediately cry foul and see it negatively or we can see it as something more positive like that gent from the company that asked me for a pry bar just so he could get ideas to come up with his own contribution to that little tool and then say we're simply two passing ships influencing each other as we learn and grow and thanks for your inspiration. $hit happens unfortunately. Its just the way of the world. The truth is though, no one here knows for sure that Navy or Land or any of these other companies has done anything wrong. For all we really know they made some inside deal to be able to do some of what they do. (key word: "SOME" ) No, of course I don't think those being done that are obvious fakes going so far as to even use the company logo on the knife they copied are sanctioned. Do we really have proof otherwise on the others though to prove they don't have some kind of permission to make discontinued models, or models that were collaborations and designs made up by martial artists that maybe still want to have some of their knives being made? I certainly don't and besides that its not really my concern anymore than my neighbor's abortion is my concern. No debt goes unpaid in the universe. I seriously believe that but thats my way of knowing that they rob no one but themselves when true wrong towards another takes place.

STR

 

[tipoc]

I'd love to have a penny for every clip out there.

Thinking about it that pocket clip, the spydy hole, the Emerson Wave, etc. features like these are unique. The knife maker to trust is the one that went up to Sal right after Sal put it on a knife and said "I like that clip. I'm going to put a clip on my knife. My own design but one like yours. Do you mind? You want some credit? Can we work out a deal?" The fella that did that, or who approached Emerson and talked to him about using the Wave, that is the man to trust and respect. That honorable act is worth money in the bank.

tipoc

 

[ayz]

from the standards some of you hold businesses to (even chinese ones), i guess you also leave your doors unlocked and your stuff just lying around in public or at the gym because you put so much value in the goodness and honor of people *cough*