SanRenMu is back. Sort of.

[danbot]

Erm... where am I dragging other forums? The link I posted is from THIS forum back in 2014. Also, I did not start the personal attacks go tell the other dude you didn't even mention and who with another guy went to harass Hickory & Steel in another thread. If you read any of my posts, I'm also against clones and counterfeits. I'm merely arguing whether the SRM 710 is a clone or not. I think NOT.

Your arguments are crap.
You look down on people that own a CRK because you think that they look down on you.
No one here should be arguing against clones unless they also make sure to scrutinize every single product they buy in every aspect of their life.

 

[BlackKnight86]

You’ve already devolved into political discussion in violation of GKD rules.

Where did he do that?

 

[Eagle Scout]

Overcharging IS a form of theft.

Simply not true in the context discretionary spending. That perspective only exists when price exceeds a buyers resources.

That line blurs when secondary market sellers price higher than the maker IMO. Supply and demand is a real thing, and the exchange consistently demonstrates this.

You've been articulate and thorough in communicating your perspective @Legendary_Jarl. You've also crossed some lines in the process.

Just because an enthusiast community celebrates/defends/collects a product it chooses to afford does not make them "idiots", "bigots", "stupid", or "snobs".

 

[BladeScout]

You know how this affects Chris Reeve? Let's say he wanted to change his business model and cater to a wider public. Let's say he wanted to bring the Sebenza to an affordable scale. Let's say he somehow managed to lower the cost enough for that market. He would now find the market inundated with alternatives that look much like his own knife. Now THAT is an argument. Not these "Theft!" "Theft!" "theft!" "Forum rules" parrots. What does Chris Reeve do? Either make use of his name or innovate.

Then again, just as Ferrari won't make a cheap alternative for a $22,000 market I don't see Chris Reeve doing the same for his brand.

I don't really have a grudge against him but I'm wary of anyone trying to sell me a $500 EDC pocket knife with a less than 3'' bladef.

Whats all this 'he this' and 'he that.'
FYI CR is not in a position to 'bring the Sebenza to an affordable scale' nor will 'he' manage to 'lower the cost' of CR knives just as 'he' isnt 'doing' anything for a knife brand, which isnt his. 'He' wont sell you a $500 CRK either.

CR is not involved with CRK.

I dont own a Sebanza but I find your language in GD offensive and your insults towards CRK owners and aficionados equally so. Surprised a MOD hasnt gently admonished you yet (no, I didnt report you).
Yes, there sure are a lot of talk about CR knives, which are undoubtedly of high quality and does cost a pretty penny but in the end they seem to bring most users/owners joy. Personally, I dont see the 'value' in much higher priced knives (3-4-5K and up) from other makers but knives are worth, what customers are willing to shell out, so maybe not get your knickers in quite such a bunch.

 

[craytab]

It is not name calling, it is a fact. I saw the other thread where you simply came in to attack Hickory & Steel for no good reason. Surely you and your boyfriend promote a great atmosphere in this forum. In any case, it is the kind of answer you deserve when you simply selectively grab words from an argument and use them to accuse me of supporting theft? What you did is not an argument. It's a distortion of what I said. Cheap.



Yeah sure: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/i-own-and-love-a-srm-710-am-i-a-bad-person.1222662/page-2

LOL. Also I'm not justifying cloning or conterfeits. I simply contest that in this case it is neither. If they had used the Chris Reeve name, then yeah. Their use of the Axis lock is unacceptable as well.



My problem is that I feel bigotry and snobbery is what is really fueling this debate. Not morality. If you really cared you would apply it to all aspecs of your life and I doubt any of you do. You say the 710 is a clone of the Sebenza and that it is bad yet the clearly Carls Jr. Inspired McDonalds hamburger I ate today was fine. Every car brand having crossover SUV's and pickup trucks is fine. Where do we draw the line?



1) Kindly show me the patent. I looked for it all over and I couldn't find it. I did find the patent for the Tri Ad Lock, for example.

Patents.google.com

No one would award CR a patent for a simple knife as the Sebenza is. There is no breakthrough innovation with that knife.

2) Their use of the Axis lock without permission is wrong. A blatant copy of the Ontario Rat 1 WOULD harm Ontario because they are in the same market and Ontario should take action. As far as the 710, I contest that it is NOT a blatant copy. It uses different materials, HT, price range and from what I read different weight and dimensions too. I don't own either knife and I do not intend to.



I don't hate CRK. I hate the snobbery around his knives.



I wasn't but like they say : "if the coat fits you put it on".



In this case the "breakthrough innovation" is the crucible steel Chris Reeve helped develop. The design of the knife itself is so simple and cheap somebody might inadvertly come up with the same thing or similar.



Neither do I care.



I'm not defending any clones. I'm merely contesting what you call a clone.



I don't really have a grudge against him but I'm wary of anyone trying to sell me a $500 EDC pocket knife with a less than 3'' blade. I could buy a nice sword for that price, maybe even a pattern welded one. Overcharging IS a form of theft. To me paying more money for a product because of the name associated with said product instead of the actual characteristics of the product is stupid. Specially when it comes to clothing. That 168 dollar shirt from Bloomingdales was made in freaking China and whoever buys it will serve as an advertisement for the brand. He will not be a better person, he will simply be a person giving out the message that, in appearance, he can afford an expensive shirt which will ultimately wear out as fast as my 15 dollar shirt from Walmart. What was the whole point of getting said shirt? No bloody idea. When I go to a place where there is another knife nut and he tries to show off his Chris Reeve Sebenza I'm unimpressed. I fail to see what they look so proud of. Carrying $500 worth of product on you is folly, IMO, and I feel said person was ripped off.

There is far too much lies, insults, and general nonsense in this post to even attempt to address.

I'd suggest doing more reading and less posting.

 

[craytab]

Whats all this 'he this' and 'he that.'
FYI CR is not in a position to 'bring the Sebenza to an affordable scale' nor will 'he' manage to 'lower the cost' of CR knives just as 'he' isnt 'doing' anything for a knife brand, which isnt his. 'He' wont sell you a $500 CRK either.

CR is not involved with CRK.

I dont own a Sebanza but I find your language in GD offensive and your insults towards CRK owners and aficionados equally so. Surprised a MOD hasnt gently admonished you yet (no, I didnt report you).
Yes, there sure are a lot of talk about CR knives, which are undoubtedly of high quality and does cost a pretty penny but in the end they seem to bring their owners joy. Knives are worth, what customers are willing to shell out, so maybe not get your knickers in a bunch.

Like I said this guy doesn't know the first thing about crk. He hasn't taken the time to even do the most basic research on the subjects he is ranting on. His posts don't deserve a thought out response from any of the quality members of this forum.

 

[craytab]

Look fellas, I'll take all your thoughts into consideration and appreciate you trying to help me see what you feel you so clearly do.

This is the first and only knife forum I've been a part of. I don't read knife news or magazines. Before now I had no information to let me know that the knives I bought back when were violations of any patents. I get the feeling that even if the patents had expired before they copied, you'd all still chastise anyone for buying one, but I could be wrong.

Either way, I'm not going to feel bad for owning my knives. I just won't. I didn't break any laws, and any so called moral line I may have crossed, I did so without knowing. I spent my money on them and, quite frankly, they're great quality. I bought them before I knew anything about patents or copies and if it were illegal to do I wouldn't have done it.

I found them while Google searching for cheap quality knives. Long before I partook in any online forums. I may have joined here a year or so ago, but I never logged in or read through anything. I've been in and out of my love of cutlery, never very serious. I'm still not, really. Anyway... Logging off for another couple years.

Stick around. This is a great place to learn, and learned you already have. Now that you know how bad clones hurt this hobby, hopefully you will make the correct decision on your next purchase.

 

[craytab]

Your main motive is to get someone banished . Get's you so hot . I've never "supported" anything but freedom of information and to buy what we choose . Most of my posts are about Cold Steel or in Prac-Tac . I really don't give a hoot about the brands that use imitation , so long as the brand labeling is correct and the purchase is legal . Just don't care ,but do not "promote "or "support" . Overwhelmingly , my comments about actual counterfeits have been negative for functional/value reasons. I only made one post(long ago) that was positive about an actual counterfeit $12.50 " Shiro " and that was a JOKE . Who could be fooled or harmed by that ? $12.50 for a $6000.00 knife . Take the rest of your crap to W&C , where it belongs . Whew ! I need a nap now .

What a bunch of garbage. Just recently you posted about a counterfeit you purchased and complained that this place doesn't like cheap knives.

Bfc is not about clones and counterfeits. Read the policy about them here in the rules. Stop arguing in favor of them and don't post your pictures of them.

Cheap knives are fine. I own many. Counterfeits and clones are not fine. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

 

[marcinek]

Its certainly a shame that several members here are unable to have this discussion within the rules of the site.

To the two members defending the clones, @Legendary_Jarl and @DocJD, make all the handwaving excuses for cloning you want, but, ultimately it is a question of whether or not you think taking someone else's work for your own profit is OK or not.

You are free to feel its OK. Most of us will argue that it is not, regardless of whose work is being stolen, and regardless of the stance on the subject put forward by the owner of this site.

 

[marcinek]

They are not claiming the name Chris Reeves, they are not using the steel developed by Chris Reeves, they are not claiming the quality of Chris Reeves, or his endorsement. They merely used the shape.

Quoted for posterity. They used his design for their profit.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Quoted for posterity. They used his design for their profit.

Yup. And one point that those defending companies like SRM never seem to grasp is that even if Sebenza clones never managed to hurt CRK, it still hurts other, reputable knife manufacturers because cloners have no need to come up with original designs, they simply steal them. That eliminates cost and puts ethical manufacturers in a position of being forced to compete against designs from some of the most respected knifemakers in the world in a very low cost market segment.

 

[danbot]

What is a handgun cloner and where do I buy one?

Haha! It's probably too risky of a game for most. But I did see a documentary about it once (so now I know everything).
Colombian farmers were making them out of a very small barn machine shop. Test firing for the first time is the scariest part for them. Then they sell the cloned guns dirt cheap and just like coke, it gets a lot more expensive the farther it travels to it's final criminal destination.
Untraceable gun!

 

[unwisefool]

I don't really have a grudge against him but I'm wary of anyone trying to sell me a $500 EDC pocket knife with a less than 3'' blade. I could buy a nice sword for that price, maybe even a pattern welded one. Overcharging IS a form of theft. To me paying more money for a product because of the name associated with said product instead of the actual characteristics of the product is stupid. Specially when it comes to clothing. That 168 dollar shirt from Bloomingdales was made in freaking China and whoever buys it will serve as an advertisement for the brand. He will not be a better person, he will simply be a person giving out the message that, in appearance, he can afford an expensive shirt which will ultimately wear out as fast as my 15 dollar shirt from Walmart. What was the whole point of getting said shirt? No bloody idea. When I go to a place where there is another knife nut and he tries to show off his Chris Reeve Sebenza I'm unimpressed. I fail to see what they look so proud of. Carrying $500 worth of product on you is folly, IMO, and I feel said person was ripped off.

A few things, since I own and use a CRK umnumzaan almost daily. I bought it when it first came out, I loved it as soon as I saw the ad for it. My wallet however did not. So I saved for a few months and bought it and it has become one of my favorite pocket knives I own. Yes, it was expensive, but I use it a lot. And I've passed on buying other knives because I didn't need them because of the umnumzaan. Also, it was $425 shipped from Canada and has a 3.5" blade.

You say you can buy a sword, and I guess yes you can, however they are totally different types of blades. One is a solid piece of steel that you aren't going to be using nearly as much as a folding knife with more parts and some of the tightest tolerances in the industry. They are made and used very differently.

Also I buy clothes at Walmart, but I will tell you right now that more expensive, better made clothes from somewhere else will absolutely last me longer than the Walmart version.

So how much is acceptable for you or others to spend on items? You say carrying $500 of anything is folly, but a lot of people spend easily twice that on a nice business suit. And yes, they do need it. A $150 off the rack special is not going to cut it a lot of times.

I have a pair of boots I spent close to $300 on 5 years ago and they have outlasted many cheaper articles of footwear. Is that too much? Or is it worth it because I don't have to keep buying a $100 pair of boots every year? Sometimes it's ok to spend money if it's a superior product and makes sense. Although I fully admit to waiting on a sale at tractor supply to pick up carhartt tshirts.

If I can get a better product I try to do so because in my experience it's worth it. I absolutely try to wait for items to go on sale because to save a bit of money, but some items, like my umnumzaan never go on sale so I bite the bullet and spend the money.

I understand that CRK knives are expensive and that's why I only own one. But most people who own them are not snobs. And if they were and talked down to you shame on them. If you don't like the knives, fair enough, but your explanation was more hostile than it had a right to be.

 

[marcinek]

It is not name calling, it is a fact. I saw the other thread where you simply came in to attack Hickory & Steel for no good reason. Surely you and your boyfriend promote a great atmosphere in this forum.

I'm sure if I "attacked" a member the mods would have stepped in. I have always found them to be thorough and unbiased. What sort of attack did I mount? Did I call him an idiot or make a homophobic remark? Odd.

Anyway, I don't demand or expect anyone to have the same value structure as me, what I value is no better or worse or lower or higher then anyone else. I look down on stealing someone else's efforts for your gain. I find it morally wrong. No one else has to.

What I did expect was that all people here would value the hard work of the great folks in the knife industry. And people like yourself show me that is not the case. It is reassuring to know that the folks who don't seem to be a small minority.

Learn something new every day around here I guess!

 

[dkb45]

I honestly do not get why people constantly insist that the SRM 710 is a copy of the Sebenza. They look similar, but they are obviously not the same knife unless you have seriously impaired vision. Insisting it is a clone when it's kinda similar at best makes you sound a little paranoid.

That said, I don't don't that SRM does clone something. They have kind of violated the axis lock patent (not properly, because the patent isn't valid in China, it's kind of a skeezy grey area, but not illegal), but I'm not aware of any outright copies, it at least don't remember any, but I will change my position if somebody does prove me wrong. Using an inspired design is scummy but not theft, outright stealing a design is unequivocally wrong.

As for Ganzo knives, they do outright steal designs. I like some of their original (to my knowledge) designs, but the actual theft stops me from giving them money. The influx of cool and not stolen budget designs into the market lately isn't hurting either. I didn't find any proof of SRM making Ganzo knives, though. Kind of disingenuous to lump them together as a single entity.

Again, if I'm wrong, please prove me wrong. I prefer to not knowingly believe wrong information.

 

[marcinek]

What a bunch of garbage.

I do admire all the creativity in coming up with excuses/analogies for the cloning!

I've been coming up with my own just for entertainment value.

"Well, if you go into a tire shop and steal the owner's lunch it's OK because nobody comes in a tire shop to buy a sandwich. So cloning is OK."

 

[danbot]

I honestly do not get why people constantly insist that the SRM 710 is a copy of the Sebenza. They look similar, but they are obviously not the same knife unless you have seriously impaired vision. Insisting it is a clone when it's kinda similar at best makes you sound a little paranoid.

That said, I don't don't that SRM does clone something. They have kind of violated the axis lock patent (not properly, because the patent isn't valid in China, it's kind of a skeezy grey area, but not illegal), but I'm not aware of any outright copies, it at least don't remember any, but I will change my position if somebody does prove me wrong. Using an inspired design is scummy but not theft, outright stealing a design is unequivocally wrong.

As for Ganzo knives, they do outright steal designs. I like some of their original (to my knowledge) designs, but the actual theft stops me from giving them money. The influx of cool and not stolen budget designs into the market lately isn't hurting either. I didn't find any proof of SRM making Ganzo knives, though. Kind of disingenuous to lump them together as a single entity.

Again, if I'm wrong, please prove me wrong. I prefer to not knowingly believe wrong information.

You seriously can't tell that this is copied from a CRK? Is it an exact copy? No. Was the intent to copy the design? Yes.

 

[Chariotz4]

A few things, since I own and use a CRK umnumzaan almost daily. I bought it when it first came out, I loved it as soon as I saw the ad for it. My wallet however did not. So I saved for a few months and bought it and it has become one of my favorite pocket knives I own. Yes, it was expensive, but I use it a lot. And I've passed on buying other knives because I didn't need them because of the umnumzaan. Also, it was $425 shipped from Canada and has a 3.5" blade.

You say you can buy a sword, and I guess yes you can, however they are totally different types of blades. One is a solid piece of steel that you aren't going to be using nearly as much as a folding knife with more parts and some of the tightest tolerances in the industry. They are made and used very differently.

Also I buy clothes at Walmart, but I will tell you right now that more expensive, better made clothes from somewhere else will absolutely last me longer than the Walmart version.

So how much is acceptable for you or others to spend on items? You say carrying $500 of anything is folly, but a lot of people spend easily twice that on a nice business suit. And yes, they do need it. A $150 off the rack special is not going to cut it a lot of times.

I have a pair of boots I spent close to $300 on 5 years ago and they have outlasted many cheaper articles of footwear. Is that too much? Or is it worth it because I don't have to keep buying a $100 pair of boots every year? Sometimes it's ok to spend money if it's a superior product and makes sense. Although I fully admit to waiting on a sale at tractor supply to pick up carhartt tshirts.

If I can get a better product I try to do so because in my experience it's worth it. I absolutely try to wait for items to go on sale because to save a bit of money, but some items, like my umnumzaan never go on sale so I bite the bullet and spend the money.

I understand that CRK knives are expensive and that's why I only own one. But most people who own them are not snobs. And if they were and talked down to you shame on them. If you don't like the knives, fair enough, but your explanation was more hostile than it had a right to be.

I've been silently watching this thread so far, but I guess now is as good a time as any to chime in with my $0.02.

I completely agree with you. There's nothing inherently wrong with a cheap(er) knife, but often, there is value in the longevity and overall quality of a superior, well-made product.

When I was fresh into knives, I did what I figure most here can relate to and bought a lot of lower-end knives (most of which can be considered "tacticool" by my own self admission) from brands associated with "entry level" knives. As my "knife taste" matured, so did my appreciation for a superior product. I continued to climb the quality ladder until I reached a price point where I feel my dollars are well spent and I'm getting a quality product.

For me, that bracket is the ~$150-$350 CAD range. All my knives fall in there somewhere with the exception of my Small CGG Sebenza 21 and my Benchmade Anthem (two knives I just "had to have"). For some, their bracket is lower. For some it's higher, and for others, it's higher yet and still growing!

Wherever one falls though, it doesn't matter in the scheme of things. We're all here to enjoy blades. The small and simple caveat being that as supposed enthusiasts, we should care not only about the knives we have and want, but the industry that makes it possible. And as others have already mentioned ad nauseam, that means supporting those in the industry who keep it healthy; the designers and reputable custom makers, the large manufacturers who make an original quality product and everyone in between who's doing the same.

You can't always choose to be ethical in everyday purchases from gas to groceries, but again, as others have mentioned, such as M marcinek , why one wouldn't choose to support those truly deserving of one's dollars when it comes to what is a hobby for most of us here, is beyond me. I'm not going to starve if I don't have a knife, so why not practice some ethics in what amounts to a luxury/non-essential purchase for most of us?

YMMV

 

[Darkera]

Many people would rather have many inexpensive, low-mid-quality items than one expensive, high-quality item. They think more is better and that they are getting a deal. This is a post war consumerism mentality but I think it is starting to decline a little, i.e. millennials having a "less-is-more" consumer mentality and more willing to spend extra on quality vs. quantity.

I just don't like the disposable mentality and like to buy something that I am proud of, enjoy taking care of, and can potentially pass on. I'd rather my house has a few nice things than wall-to-wall with junk. Of course you can have a SanRenMu and take care of it and enjoy it and it probably could last a long time, it's a knife after all, but I doubt the 2-3 clone proponents in this thread can honestly say that they would be as proud of their Made In China clone as they would be if they owned the real deal. The common theme of their posts in this thread is that (1) an imitation is as good as the real thing; (2) it is stupid to spend more money on a knife than what their subjective limit dictates; and (3) CRK sucks. I think there is just a lot of sour grapes going around.

 

[SharpieB]

Some great posts here.

I have played with many CRKs and think they are incredibly made. I personally don’t own one as I would be afraid to scratch up a $500 knife. I have no problem using a $200 knife for hard use, so to each their own.

I recently turned down a Grimsmo that I “won” the right to buy in one of their lotteries. I could have flipped it, but I would prefer this $1100 knife went to someone that would use it as I would likely just look at it and flip it in front of the TV. I guess I could have posted pics here for some “ooohs and ahhs” and impressed my knife geek friends, but that’s not me.

I like that this site is not super elitist and people with Gerber and Schrade collections are as welcome as those with a dozen Shiros. Not so on many other sites.