Scenario-Based Training: Commercial Plane Crash

Do airliners carry charts? Is it Salvageable? If so,I would try to locate us in the world
 
Brian Jones: Others are following the type-A's lead because they don't know what else to do, and you realize that you have to take control of this situation because nobody else knows how to handle it.
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I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I wouldn't try to take control and get in a non-productive fight with other (:o) A-personalities.

I think I'd be more inclined to go the way of dougo83 - "As far as dealing with the type-A's: organize what few you can and get them on your train of thought. People function in a herd mentality in survival situations; if they see you and your 'sheep' building a fire and a makeshift shelter, mr type-a will probably be ignored before too long." In other words, let the actions speak louder than the words.

Obviously you would want to get away from the plane as quickly as possible, but not so far that you couldn't scavenge it for supplies once the fire/explosion threat passes. Also, something the size of a plane with it's possible reflective qualities is a lot bigger targer for SAR people.

And Mr. Williams :rolleyes:, "might sound harsh, but the old would be last on my list for treatment and food. children, women, men, elderly..... " I'm glad you could save the 2 soccer mom/PETA types. It's unfortunate you didn't get to Mr Kochanski and Mr. DeWeese in time! :(

Just busting your chops, jw, but it is something to think about. :) I guess being an old geezer myself, is what caused me to think about it.

Another thing, it was mentioned about the number of military people etc., flying about with much needed (in this scenario) skills, and I think that quietly going about the things that needed doing and trying to look after the shocked and the injured would attract these people when they see what you're doing.

BTW, lot's of good points made by siguy and others.

Doc
 
DOC-CANADA said:
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but I wouldn't try to take control and get in a non-productive fight with other (:o) A-personalities.

I think I'd be more inclined to go the way of dougo83 - "As far as dealing with the type-A's: organize what few you can and get them on your train of thought. People function in a herd mentality in survival situations; if they see you and your 'sheep' building a fire and a makeshift shelter, mr type-a will probably be ignored before too long." In other words, let the actions speak louder than the words.
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Isn't that a perfect example of taking control? It's precisely the way to handle that. Take away the Type-A's audience and he has nothing. Control does not have to be overt. :thumbup:

Good stuff so far. We'll get into what can be salvaged from the plane and how materials can be used to meet your needs, amongst other things...

On the guy with the lighter: make sure you collect any flame-generating devices from everyone, not just the person you see. People revert to their comfort zones in a traumatic event unconsciously in an attempt to normalize an extreme situation. Leaking jet fumes will ignite and immolate everyone in a 100 yard radius (at least) if a flame is struck. It depends on wind and other conditions, too, but use that as a metric to start with.
 
ilbruche said:
Guess I'm not the only one. I'd see if I could find my bags and GTFO.

I'd stick around to make sure everyone is all right.....but there is no way I'd babysit until I got rescued.
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It might not be babysitting. Having a community of people sharing tasks is more efficient energy-wise than trying to meet all your needs by yourself away from the resources the wreckage can offer. Just a thought.
 
BTW, as Dougo points out and others have mentioned too, the best way to lead is by example, in every case. When people see you being effective, and they jump on that bandwagon right quick and follow the knowledgeable person.

It is mutually beneficial as I mentioned. People do have a way of rallying when the chips are down. I have seen it many times with my own eyes and am always pleasantly amazed by it.
 
Brian Jones said:
It might not be babysitting. Having a community of people sharing tasks is more efficient energy-wise than trying to meet all your needs by yourself away from the resources the wreckage can offer. Just a thought.
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I tend to agree. If rescue won't be made for a month, it suggests that you're quite aways out there.

Doc
 
DOC, I understand where youre coming from, thats just how I was trained. It is just an unfortunate part of triaging, I hate to say this cause its kinda cliche, but playing god if you will. When we go over these types of MCIs its always this part that we(I) have trouble with. It gets even worse when you have to make a call on a child not to help them, cause there is someone down the line thats more of a priority patient.

I always have trouble with the kids, but I have just as much with the elderly. My thoughts are that it is truely a tragedy when the elderly are taken. That is so much knowlage and experiance that is just gone. Thats why I always go the extra mile and really, I mean REALLY listen to my elderly pts. I enjoy it alot, thats one of the many things I love about my job.

I believe in this type of situation, we have to look at the ultimate survival of the whole. That is unless you just wanna go with the every man for himself approach, but I for one could not live with leaving injured people in need behind, guess thats just the military in me. That being said, taking incident command unfortunaly comes with the responsability to lead, and make the tough decisions, I believe they call it the burden of command. Im not saying that all hope is lost for the elderly in my party, b/c I would leave a mortally wounded child to care an elderly that has a better chance at survival, its just that the children would come first followed by the mothers of said children.

Sorry for rambling, just wanted to dive a little further in depth on my thoughts of how to triage, and my struggles with incident command, which I think everyone should be aware of.........
 
jw, great points.

A thought is, if an elderly person with vast knowledge than can aid the cause can be saved, and thus could help save more, it's an important part of the consideration, too, wouldn't you agree?
 
Totally agree. Ive worked some accidents with 10-12 injured pts, and I can tell you it is very easy to get tunnel vision when doing this job. Thats the only thing. I mean, you can
easilly exasperate your resources on something thats never gonna happen. So you have know when to say when, ya know?
 
j williams said:
Totally agree. Ive worked some accidents with 10-12 injured pts, and I can tell you it is very easy to get tunnel vision when doing this job. Thats the only thing. I mean, you can
easilly exasperate your resources on something thats never gonna happen. So you have know when to say when, ya know?
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Absolutely. Triage is never easy, and always leaves you with "Could I have done that differently or better?"
 
But its like you say if one can aid in the cause, like say an injured MD, or somthing of that nature, then its one of those save one, save a thousand things. Like in a tactical situation, sniping the medic so he cant save the others, essentially cutting the head off the snake so to speak.
 
With Jwilliams training , there is a plan in place immidiately. Incident command is versatile . Wrong decisions will be made no matter what. But at least there is a plan ,and will be reevaluated often.
 
Brian Jones said:
Absolutely. Triage is never easy, and always leaves you with "Could I have done that differently or better?"
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Thats a hard thing to swallow too, I tear up my calls in my mind going over every angle, quality assessing them. I find you always have time for that when its over, but never enough when the game is on. BUT, I think it aids the subconcious in you ability to make the snap decisions, its not a perfect world, and no big scene is gonna go textbook. Look at katrina and 9/11.
 
j williams said:
Thats a hard thing to swallow too, I tear up my calls in my mind going over every angle, quality assessing them. I find you always have time for that when its over, but never enough when the game is on. BUT, I think it aids the subconcious in you ability to make the snap decisions, its not a perfect world, and no big scene is gonna go textbook. Look at katrina and 9/11.
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Absolutely agree 100%. Great posts, JW! :thumbup:
 
Never been in a plane crush as of yet. But no matter what i cant see my self walking away with out any kind of pain out of it... I would do what ever little i know and help others. As was stated before im not going to fight type A. Im going to have my own game playing. While helping others old or young who ever i reach first. I would try and pick up what ever i can that might help me later. What ever type A are doing im sure they are going to do something to move people along.. Unless any of you crush often im sure we are going to be dazed trying to think "what just happend". Help as many as i can set a small camp at a safe distance. Wait 2-3 days and see what happend, hoping someone is out looking for the plane. That would give me time to figure out what i got, whos who. Does anyone knows about where we are... No matter what everyone thinks in a group you have better chance. You can always go alone if you have to. The plane it self is like a treasure box or usefull things.. Helping others is the right thing to do... Being the lone wolf is romantic but come on even wolfs live in packs and lone wolfs do die... Just the few things i did learn from life... So if you crush in a plane with me out there and you are hurt i would be there to help you out.. If for any reason we do stick togher walking out.. I dont leave anyone behind. It seems as the first thing on here is some that say they would do it alone and others that they would help.. Very little is said on the actual steps to take on what to save from the plane and how to handle people that are hurt.

Sasha
 
Thanks Brian. I just came off the truck a couple hours ago, and had one of those nightmare shifts, so I guess Im still in the game:o
 
In this scenario, the type-A has a dysfunctional psychological need to be in control, and has reverted to this drama, but is making decisions that will make things worse.

Good type-A's who know their stuff might not be so bad...
 
Wow, great link Brian! I could spend hours lookin at that stuff......

I think the glass could be used to fashion cutting impliments, You could use the metal for reflecting to signal, seat material and foam for insulating clothes, or immobilizing fractures, Then Im sure the luggage would be full of goodies too.

That is assuming all this stuff is not destroyed....
 
I hope i do know enough to make the right choice and i can see that type A is going to get other people hurt... I would try to talk to them if nothing works and i know me or others WOULD get hurt from his choice. I guess i wont be nice and some hard choices would be made one way or the other... If it goes bad my way. I would do what ever i can to help but i would put my life first.

Sasha
 
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