screwy idea for tempering

Except for your JS and MS test performance knives cuz that is what is expected? lol I read something that Kevin posted a number of months ago wherein he said that he had no use for a knife that bent like silly putty and that the martensite make the blade tough so not having a "very soft spine", etc, is not an issue. Any comments?

That gets into that area Kevin mentioned regarding different people having different expectations from their blades. Differing schools of thought. The important thing is to know the why and how behind each so you can make your own decisions about what you want in a given blade. The purpose of the ABS test is to show you can do it, not necessarily that you always should. that portion of the test has been misunderstood by many as being the desired method. Don't do one or the other because someone says to. Learn the why and you're following knowledge and choice, not a person.
 
I went to the Ashokan event this year and watched as Kevin demo'd his interrupted quench routine. It made complete sense to me.
Rather than leave the blade in the oil until it was completely cool, he removed the blade after about a 5 second delay. After the blade cooled while he was talking, he "accidentally" dropped the blade while holding it from the tang. It hit the concrete point down and made a hole in the slab.
He then passed around the blade - which I beliece was 1084? - and the point was perfect.
Note also, that the blade was ground to just a hair short of full finish.
The point was unharmed. That puppy was hard!
Anyway, I have a rather large supply of 1" square 5160 -3000 feet -that is on the high end of carbon content normally found in 5160.
I have been quenching at a long soak in my oven, and holding in the oil until it cooled off. What I didn't know was that by cooling off completely, I was halting martensite transformation before it had the chance to complete! As I understand it, the blade needs to remain up at, or near, the 400 degree mark for this to happen.
Anyway, I started interrupting my quenches. I still do basically the same tempering recipe.
After cleaning up my quench scale and going to do finishing hand sanding, I couldn't sand the scratches out!!
My 5160 is now harder than I ever dreamed. Much harder than I was accustomed to.
If I hadn't learned some hand-sanding techniques from Don Fogg, I'd be screwed!
This is the result of one of those blades. I'll mention here that I sent a knife to be Field tested by one of the gentlemen who own one of the Hunting Programs on The Outdoor Channel. The name of the program is Backland Outdoors and the guy says he dresses out over 100 animals a year. Deer, hogs, elk, pronghorn, caribou, etc.
I sent him a knife to use on one of his hunts where I live here in Illinois. He had been accustomed to factory stuff up until now, and was very sceptical of the "hand-made" stuff.
Here is the email he sent me when he returned home in Minnesota:

"Dear Karl,

Just back in town and wanted to touch base with you about your knife. OK, I must admit this is one meat cutting "mo fo." What an edge! Love it, can’t wait to rip into my next animal! That almost sounds sick doesn’t it? I quartered out a buck yesterday in Illinois in about three minutes and had him in bags for donation to the feed the hungry program. A great knife "takes the work out of work" is how I look at it. I just wanted to say thank you and I now can say that I can't wait to show your knife on the air. In fact I had many at the last camp ask me about who made this knife that I was hooting and hollering about. Now my staff is asking about their knives! Why do I get all the cool toys?
Give me a call when you get a chance.

Sincerely,
Scott Anderson
BackLand Outdoors"


So there is the result of the interrupted quench in the "real world"!

Ok Karl......since you got the info from others, it ain't trade secrets so ya gots to give em up, daddy-o!!!!! lol. How do you tell when the blade has reached 400F MOL and what ARE these secret hand sanding techniques?:D
 
That gets into that area Kevin mentioned regarding different people having different expectations from their blades. Differing schools of thought. The important thing is to know the why and how behind each so you can make your own decisions about what you want in a given blade. Don't do one or the other because someone says to. Learn the why and you're following knowledge and choice, not a person.
The problem that I have is that I don't know jack, so my expectations are unformed.....lol. I have simple ones like making a knife that will cut as it should, hold an edge, be easy to sharpen and not break in normal and occasional abnormal use.....nothing fancy, right? lol
 
Read, read, read, make knives under different conditions and see what you like. Read some more. Then make some more. :)

Fowler has spent thirty years developing his philosophy about blades, and will still say there's more to learn.

Kevin says he learns more constantly and yet it tells him how much more there is to know.

They have different views, and yet both study the heck outta what they're doing. Their knives continue to improve. My feeling is that both would be aghast if someone were to suggest they weren't still on a continuing quest.

This is one of those hobbies/passions/art/jobs that is like those damned guitars: no matter how good you get at something, there's always more to learn. We practice and study in the hopes of getting better. Plan on practicing a lot. Start simple and work into advanced techniques.

You want to forge, so start with the simplest steel you can find to HT, like 1084/1080/1075. Learn to hammer it, then thermal cycle properly, and get the whole thing hard and tempered properly to start. Then practice your knifemaking skills. Do that until you know what you;re doing. Then start edge quenching and figure out how make it bend if you want. One step at a time.

That's my take on it. I made knives stock removal first for years, learned HT, then moved into bladesmithing later.
 
Fitzo, don't talk to me about guitars.....I have some killer axes(Historic Les Pauls, CS Fenders, D28V, etc. coming out of my ears) and yet I still suck....same problem that I have here.....high expectations. That's why I went back to knifemaking......I seem to have somewhat of an eye for what a knife should look like and a bit more ability to make it happen as compared to guitar, so at least I have a SLIGHT chance of getting half decent......in a decade or so...LMAO.
 
Joe, I read in your profile about guitars, so I knew you'd understand. I am down to about 25 again, thankfully. :)

Just remember: simple to more complex with the knives. Add talents slowly. We`try and get too fancy too fast because we see what the masters accomplish. The important thing is we realize we don't have to be Steve Vai or Christopher Parkening.
 
Ok Karl......since you got the info from others, it ain't trade secrets so ya gots to give em up, daddy-o!!!!! lol. How do you tell when the blade has reached 400F MOL and what ARE these secret hand sanding techniques?:D

No secrets here! Well, maybe a few.
That 400 is just a matter of listening to others who have already checked it out! With the normal sort of average blade dimensions we deal with in knives, if you are using quenching oil at about 140-150 degrees, and you are quenching a blade of average dimesnions you're gonna be knockin' on the 400 degree door in 4-5 seconds. So, there is a little check you can do. If you pull your blade out and the QUENCHING!! oil evaporates immediately, you're too hot. Note that I said QUENCHING oil - not Crisco!
If you pull that blade out and it's dry immediately, you're vaporizing the oil and it's too hot.
If it remains completely wet with NO dry spots at all, you've gone cooler. What you want is a little smoke, some oil to remain on the blade and some spots to dry off - sort of blotchy - wet/ dry. that's what I was told by Tim Zowada, I think. Maybe Kevin. I'm easily confused.
I am going to check tonight with a thermo couple tester and check the blade when it comes out to see how hot it is - maybe tomorrow. Today has been a long day.
The sanding part is no biggy.
Instead of using sanding blocks, use bars of steel. I use 3/16 X 1 1/4, by about 18 inches long. To this I attached a thin layer of the material used for the white vinyl cutting boards. Know what I mean? I put a piece on the steel with epoxy and then milled it perfectly flat about 1/16 inch thick.
This is only on the middle 9 inches of the bar. the rremained on the ends is for your hand grip. The 9 inches is for the width of sandpaper. Spray the vinyl with Sanding disk spray adhesive that allows for repeated removal and replacing of new sand paper strips.
Now when you sand the blade, you are using both arms and shoulder instead of just your fingers and hands. You can apply a LOT more pressure, get a LOT more use out of the sand paper, and it's just plain faster and better.
You have a bar for each grit of paper you normally use.
I will pay for my trip to Ashokan with the savings in Sandpaper alone.
 
LOL.......no Crisco here, man. I just bought 4 gallons of Brownell's Tuff Quench.
 
You can almost see Don's sanding contraption from Ashokan in this picture:

Image-F0A3919B470511DB.jpg
 
...Would there be any advantage to being able to hang at martempering [marquench] temperature for a period of time, or a slow, controlled descent to ambient temperature?

Folks often wonder why steel geeks use such fancy words, it is so one can accurately convey information in the most efficient way, the problem is those you are talking to need to also have a basic vocabulary in the language you are speaking. One can see how there can be loads of confusion between tempering, martempering, quenching, marquenching and interrupted quenching. I use the word marquenching even when I am discussing an interrupted quench because that is the method I constantly use. For the sake of this conversation it may be easier for us to venture into some tech speak and instead of referring to the temperature that you are talking about as “martempering temperature”, we can cover all the techniques by using the precise term for describing that temperature we are aiming for. That temperature is the point at which martensite begins to form and material science has convenienty abbreviated the Martensite start point as Ms (the s should be subscript). In techniques geared toward making martensite the only reason one stops the cooling near Ms is to allow things to equalize before plunging into the hardening range.

I think we need to take some time out for a brief (if I am capable) discussion on this stuff called martensite that we all obsess over. Most all the other operations we talk about are effected by both time and temperature, because they are diffusional in nature, austenite and pearlite for example are strongly effected by holding at temperature because the carbon needs to diffuse for these phases to occur. Martensite is not the same, it doesn’t care about diffusion, in fact if diffusion could occur in the martensite range it would defeat the transformation and make other things. Martensite is what happens when diffusion is not allowed to occur at all and the austenite needs to do something because it is not natural for it to be stable at temperatures below 1000F (or Ar1 to be more accurate). Its atomic arrangement needs to go to a more stable configuration but there are trapped carbon atoms in the way. Ms is different for each alloy but for simplicity lets say at 400F the point is reached where something’s gotta give. At this point, since diffusion is out, a deformation is necessary for fields of austenite to make something, this is accomplished by the tilting of planes comprised of whole groups of atoms (what is known as habit planes) with a shearing type motion at the edges and thus a packet of body centered tetragonal crystal is abruptly formed and you start to get martensite.

This is why martensite is called a “shear” type transformation and it requires the action of cooling to initiate and continue; time simply doesn’t matter. One of the questions on a written test I used to give my “Intro to Bladesmithing” class was:

How long would you need to hold steel at 375F in order to get 100% martensite?

It was a trick question because an appropriate answer could be “until Hell freezes over!” Due to the diffusionless nature of the transformation whatever percentage martensite you have when you stop cooling is all you will have until you continue to cool, with a possibility of the austenite stabilizing enough to resist further shear, resulting in the dreaded retained austenite.

Because of this I would strongly suggest a gentler but continuous cooling to Mf (martensite finish). The main benefit to be gained is the evenness of cooling with the addition of the “auto-tempering” effect which I will cover in another post since this one is pretty big.
 
... The better, more consistent quality steels that I have on hand are W2 and 5160 round bar. What technique is going to get the best results with those? Next set of silly question......when you do the interrupted quench, how do you know when the blade gets to 400F?

Of the two steels the 5160 will give higher toughness when optimally heat treated, while the W2 will give much better edge holding when given the same. Recommended austenitizing temperature for 5160 is 1525F., quench into a medium speed oil and interrupt at Ms. I have a continuous cooling curve fro 5160 that shows Ms to be around 550F, so you have a little more margin of error on the high side. Don’t fiddle around with the cooling; just allow it to cool on its own in the air. If you see any warps, feel free to put on gloves and gently push it back straight, as you get above 50% martensite formation you will notice that it will resist your “guidance” more and more, it is telling you to leave it alone- listen to it.

When the steel is cold to the touch get it immediately to the temper and heat it above 250F ASAP to avoid any problems. You will should note see any significant drop in hardness until you get over 350-375F. how far you go above this is determined by what you want your final hardness/toughness to be. 400F seems to work well but more toughness can be gained by going a little higher. Temper at least twice, as the cycling seems to have a very good equalizing upon the steel, and may even zap any retained austenite there could be.

The austenitizing temp fro W2 will depend on the carbon content and there is a range in this steel but 1450-1475F should work well. Higher temperatures will results in deeper hardening. Use a very quick oil for this steel, Ms is closer to 400F than the 5160. Temper as soon as possible. You may need to temper well above 400F in order to get toughness out of this stuff because it gets HARD. How high to go is entirely dependant on the heat it was quenched at and how much effect you had on the carbon and those wonderful little vanadium carbides, I wish I could be more specific but here is where you need to fine tune it for your particular situation.


... Do you "edge quench" or do you harden the entire blade in the processes you have described?

I personally never edge quench my own blades, I could go into the underlying dynamics, causes and effects that brings me to that decision and really hack off many reading this thread and probably start a genuine old fashioned poop slinger, so let’s just say I have my reasons.

I use hamons and temper lines for aesthetic purposes only, they can be quick beautiful, but when I do them I feel using a full quench with clay controlling them to make a much better product. That being said I must now also stress that interrupting an edge quench or only putting the edge of a red hot blade into 400F oil would be miserable at best and disastrous at worst.
 
...Interesting that you chose 1095, of all things, for your example in this... I'm kind of wondering why that steel over others -- purposeful, or accidental?...

In this case it was intentional, but not in any negative way since I really like 1095 and still use it often. But it is just a fact that of the higher carbon 10XX series that we typically use 1095 is the shallowest hardening. 1084 manganese content - .6 to .9%, 1095 manganese content -.3 to.5% making it necessary to cool VERY fast in order to avoid any pearlite. There are even modified versions of 1095 that cannot avoid pearlite at all and the nose of the TTT curve runs right off the left hand side of the chart.

Truth be told none of the 10xx are really well suited for martempering/marquenching, but can be interrupted quenched. For true martempering one gets best results with steels designated for oil hardening. A 1084 blade quenched into 400F salts will form a faint temper line a little over ¼” from the edge where it managed to form enough martensite to show. There are some who swear they can get around this with differing austenitizing temperatures but I have not been able to get their results even when using their procedures exactly as described, and the results under the microscope were very unappealing to me. This is a complex topic that gets into cooling curves and pearlite nucleation rates vs. carbides and grain size so I will save it for another time.
 
...After the blade cooled while he was talking, he "accidentally" dropped the blade while holding it from the tang. It hit the concrete point down and made a hole in the slab....

I do this at most of my heat treating lectures, mostly because it is fun to watch the eyes of the crowd when a fully hardened, untempered blade gets tossed point first into concrete. The coolest is when it sticks in the concrete.;) I promise you will not find a DVD playing at the Bladeshow of Kevin Cashen hacking up cinderblocks then standing on the handles to hawk his Super Knives made using the “super secret”, “cutting edge” technology of Martempering;) .

All I am doing is showing the effects of the even cooling and that auto-tempering thing I mentioned earlier, it is not magic, a secret, or even all that impressive once you understand how steel works and what it is capable of (and decide that good enough, is not good enough).

Auto-tempering: let’s go back to martensite for a second. Some reading this may realize, others may not, that there are two types of martensite (like this wasn’t already complicated enough:rolleyes: ). It has lot to do with Ms temperatures, but for our conversation we will stick to carbon content. In steel that has .6% carbon or less hardening forms lathe martensite. Lath martensite grows in fine little fern like packets, or laths, and thus the name. Tucked between these packets is ductile ferrite so this martensite is the tougher of the two, and when there is less than .45% carbon it can be quenched and not tempered and still be fairly tough.

In steel that has 1% carbon or more you get plate martensite. Plate martensite forms on larger sheets with odd angles and tilts to it habit planes, often intersecting each other and causing points of high strain (resulting in plate micro fracturing in larger grains). This stuff is brittle and is one of the main reasons you want to temper higher carbon steels well and very soon.

In steels from .6% to 1% carbon you get a mixture of lath and plate with the ratio in accordance with the carbon level, so we get it on most of the steels we work with. Tempering takes the ‘edges” off all theses little needles and allows the steel to relax a bit, but by relaxing the stressed out body centered tetragonal configuration into a more stable body centered cubic configuration, and by rounding the ends of these needles and to take the pressure off their neighbors.

When you slam steel into Mf by quenching into something like cold water you subject the inside of it to all of these effects until you can get it back up to tempering temperature. But if you quench to 400f and then allow that blade to air cool, you may form as much as 40% of your martensite in a range that allows it to be quickly tempered by its own slow cooling thermal mass, thus taking the edge off before one even reaches Mf and before more needles can be slammed into it. This is what is known as the auto tempering effect, and what Tim Z. likes to call “happy martensite”.

No magic, or wacky theories, actually quite simple and reasonable when you understand it.
 
O.K., if I've got this right,you need proper heat treat temperature, proper soak time, snap cool [quench] to 400 deg.[marquench range] and then slow descent to ambient temperature. Is this the correct scenaroi?

If you are going for a nice martensitic blade, yes. Cool as quickly as possible to avoid anything else forming from austenitizing heat to Ms. Then evenly and continually cool to Mf, air seems to work best. I say Mf (martensite finish) instead of ambient because the alloy determines the temperature at which it will stop making martensite, not your room thermostat. Some alloys are done by 150F others aren’t done at 32F. and may need the benefit of a -350F liquid to finish. Many of the steels we use are content to be done at 72F.

This is great stuff, perhaps we can get into detail of desired grain structure and affects of variations to this prociedure.[if & when you have time]

It is a whole other topic that could take volumes to cover and even more to address the misinformation out there about it. For this discussion it is worth mentioning that the only part that affects austenite grain size is the high temperature at which you soak. After the cooling starts everything will be what it is, unless you make some new pearlite grains on the way down.
 
...Do you mean "marquenching"? (interrupted quench?)

For you I mean interrupted quenching, for me I mean marquenching. It is really a matter of semantics based upon the equipment used and whether you have the ability to equalize for a moment before continuing. One gives much more controlled results but both will get you in the same ball park. I am distinguishing the two in order to emphasis that one may get better results by interrupting than by jerry rigging a sub-par marquench.
 
Except for your JS and MS test performance knives cuz that is what is expected? lol I read something that Kevin posted a number of months ago wherein he said that he had no use for a knife that bent like silly putty and that the martensite make the blade tough so not having a "very soft spine", etc, is not an issue. Any comments?

I often defend the ABS tests for what they can show about the maker’s ability to control heat, but also often take on what I believe is a gross misinterpretation of those tests because it has redefined the purpose of a knife, with negative effects, for too many people. When folks intentionally slow down their quenches to make pearlite in order for the blade to bend easier with no consideration for edge holding, we have totally lost our perspective. I have never found an application, even in abuse, for a knife where easily bending to 90 degrees is desirable. Even if you want to use it for a pry bar, a pry bar that bends would be useless.

What I said earlier, about having to consider other view points on weather fine pearlite is a good thing or not, would be a non-issue if somewhere along the line alternate realities had not evolved based upon bending and flexing blades like taffy, instead of cutting a variety of things.

Mind you, I am not talking about toughness here, I am picking on ductility. Slow bending measures properties that are meaningless to me for a knife. Other than sawing and slicing you will chop and hit things with a knife, so I prefer to measure toughness under various methods of impact. As mete has pointed out, charpy values are limited in applying directly to knife cross sections, which is why I use my Charpy machine to test the materials and the heat treatments. I am currently working on a micro impact tester to apply directly to blade edges, but I need the time to make it reality and that is a precious commodity around my shop right now.

Metallurgists define strength as resistance to deformation, so a soft ductile spine is by definition the opposite of strength. I took the heat treat lecture at Ashokan, while Tim Z. did the Modulus of elasticity talk, but he covered it much the same as I would have – “flex” has nothing to do with heat treat. Bend under 20 lbs. or break under 200 lbs. is in the heat treat, you just decide which you want, a 20 lb. strong or a 200 lb. strong blade.
 
"Because of this I would strongly suggest a gentler but continuous cooling to Mf (martensite finish). The main benefit to be gained is the evenness of cooling with the addition of the “auto-tempering” effect which I will cover in another post since this one is pretty big."

That's exactly what I needed to hear. Thanks, Kevin.
I'm assuming, once again, that the "evenness of cooling" you refer to are the slight differences in cooling rates from the thin cutting areas up to the thicker spine areas of the blade which allows the thicker areas to sort of "catch up" to the thinner areas? This then results in what Tim Z. called "happy martensite"? Even transformation throughout the blade since we didn't cool it off all at once?
I made some stupid statements above by referring to how hard my blades now are, when in actual fact, that is probably the result of FINALLY putting into practice all the OTHER aspects of heat treatment I've learned from your posts and talking to T.Z. rather than just the interrupted quench alone. Things like even forging, normalizing, temp controlled spherodizing aneal, proper soak at proper temp, good quench medium, etc.
And for those I am ever grateful.
I know you have so many things in that reservoir of yours that you'd like to convey to us that sometimes it just flat out takes a lot of typing on your part to get it all said.
I'm humbled that you are willing to even take the time at all!
When are you and T.Z. gonna put together your "Basic Heat Treating and Metallurgy Course for Knife Makers"?
 
I have to take the opportunity to stress once again that I am not handing out any big secrets here, nor am I the holder of any "unique" knowledge to make the ultimate blade, I am really just plagiarizing men who figured this all out many, many years ago and were good enough to put it all down in wonderful books that any of us with the drive to learn the stuff can slowly work our way through (the more of this stuff you read the faster you can plod through it). In fact believe it or not this salt bath thin that is cutting edge to us knifemakers is old and quite obsolete in the real steel industry.

This tech stuff is valuable because just knowing that something works will only allow you to follow a recipe for any significant, but knowing how and why it works will allow you to write your own recipes and see why sometimes even though it appears to work your unaided eyes may actually be lying.

The sad thing is that the only thing I am able to add to this information is my testing and experience as a bladesmith allowing me to confirm to other smiths that what the steel industry has been doing for a century or more really does work.
 
...I made some stupid statements above by referring to how hard my blades now are, when in actual fact, that is probably the result of FINALLY putting into practice all the OTHER aspects of heat treatment I've learned from your posts and talking to T.Z. rather than just the interrupted quench alone. Things like even forging, normalizing, temp controlled spherodizing aneal, proper soak at proper temp, good quench medium, etc.
...

Not stupid at all, they were your honest observations; it is in the interpretation of observations where things so often go awry. Indeed I thought of how even with this stuff a technique can be given credit for remarkable changes in properties when it was in fact another thing entirely that was responsible. This is how this knowledge can really help you, it allows you to narrow what is happening when,and control it.

I believe your blades are much harder now, since you an I have been discussing soak times, but with all the variables,
... Things like even forging, normalizing, temp controlled spherodizing aneal, proper soak at proper temp, good quench medium, etc.
...
, your enthusiasm took you to the one variable you thought was the best. I think you can now see how any odd technique that is well packaged for the publics consumption can have people believing is solely responsible for a phenomenal change in their knives.

“Use my special hammer, which is only $299.99, and your blades will cut better than any you ever made! And for buying now, I will throw in this free bucket of #50 quench oil!”

You go home and without a second thought replace your burnt motor oil with your free bucket, and then get to work with that magic hammer! Sure enough, after that your knives are cutting like never before! Those special hammers are certainly worth the price because they really work…. A legend is born… ;)
 
Kevin, I'm truely indebted to you for your ability to cut thru the myths and misconceptions that surround the "mysteries" of heatreating. And then translate into terms that a hammerhead can make sense of. As I read the last stretch of info I suddenly formed a mental picture that's plain as day!!! WOW! Everything I've read in the past suddenly has meaning.I'm seein' the light!

I've been working my way thru the on-line book by John Verhoeven, is there any books on these lines that you highly recommend? Remember, it has to be in terms that a hammerhead can understand. I'de like to get a little deeper into "cause & affect" as long as I don't have to research every third word. Save you some typing time also.

Again, endless thanks for your time!
 
Back
Top