Sebenza 21 lube choice . . .

[expidia1]

My Seb. 21 came a few days ago. Bought it as used anyway so I opened it up, cleaned it and applied the CRK included flourinated grease.

I've read in a thread that this grease is supposed to get slicker when it dries.
I've also watched a few youtube lubing your Seb. vids one of which Nick Shabazz used the FL extreme pepe grease in the syringe to lube it.

From a previous question I asked in a thread as to thoughts on the best grease I had ordered & delivered by amazon:
.1 finish line dry bike lube with teflon
.2 finish line extreme flouro pepe grease
and
.3 I have the CRK flourinated grease that comes with the knife.

My goal is to get the blade swinging as loose as I can (within the CRK tolerances for what they consider to be inline for the way they designed the knife).
I'm not a flicker (I have assisted models for that) and I know from after receiving my small Seb. and what I learned here . . . CRK’s action is supposed to be hydraulic by design. I'm fine with that or I certainly wouldn't have ordered the 21 and another 21 will be shortly purchased by me.

But I see many on youtube (like the Apostle vids) have theirs working very smoothly, for easier one hand operation. From vids, pushing the thumb stud out, up and away instead of the natural tendency to move it circular definitely helps. But the hydraulic action is still overly stiff for my tastes. I can also see that many CRK operate easier or harder right from the factory even of the exact same models. So clearly their washers come from the factory with varying thickness. And why some break in faster than others.

I'm not looking forward for what might be years for the knife to operate easier as the washers break in. I have many other folders now that I need to also give EDC time too. So the two Sebs. won't be seeing a lot of use for faster break in. I'd like to at least to start with the slickest lube, before I take other measures.

Reason being I have stiff joints and this 2nd one is quite tight just like my first small Seb. that I bought here a few weeks ago. I sent it back for them to try and loosen it up a little and to check for bent washers that might have been pinched by previous owner.

*Aside . . . CRK's return time is even longer than I thought (damn) hopefully CRK under promises and over delivers, meaning maybe it will come back sooner.
Here is the reps email: This is a courtesy email letting you know that your Small Sebenza 21 has arrived here safely. There will be a turnaround of about 4-8 weeks. We will contact you again when service is complete.

Holly Shiz . . maybe 8 weeks! Thats a big chunk of time for many of us to go without their EDC IMO. Good reason to learn how to service our knives ourselves. BM is not much better in turnaround time. I currently have 4 knives in Spa limbo.
No more sending knives back for me. I'll service and lube them myself as most of you do here.

This Seb. came with a previously sharpened KME edge which I will convert over to a mirrored Wicked Edge after I get a few more beaters done for practice. I probably have 20 knives done so far on the WE system, but it takes 15 plus knives for new diamond stones just to starting wearing down enough to produce the elusive potentially scratchless mirrored edge when viewed through a loop.

So whats the consensus here regarding which lube for the loosest seb. blade action?
1, 2, or 3 or yet another recommendation?

Thx

 

[sn0wman72]

I only use the CRK Fluorinated grease on my CRK, with great results.

The CRK's I have open and close with varying degrees of ease, yet all have the "hydraulic" action that sets CRK apart. I have one large Seb that is much more like say a Spyderco PM2...it has always been that way, also the Zaan's I have are less "hydraulic" like.

 

[expidia1]

I only use the CRK Fluorinated grease on my CRK, with great results.

The CRK's I have open and close with varying degrees of ease, yet all have the "hydraulic" action that sets CRK apart. I have one large Seb that is much more like say a Spyderco PM2...it has always been that way, also the Zaan's I have are less "hydraulic" like.

Thx for that response. The CRK grease is the consensus of many here. I'm looking for which one is the slickest, which might turn out to be the CRK. I also have a para 2 and I agree with you that its pretty close to the same hydraulic stiif opening.
But the para 2 has a pivot screw that actually tightens and loosens the opening and closing action, where the Seb's pivot screw has little effect and its to be snugged up by design.

Also, the para 2 has the spidey hole (I'm not a big fan of spidey holes) but that hole is a lot easier on my thumb than the sebs somewhat pointy thumb stud which pushes pretty hard into the tip of my thumb. I don't think the design of this model was to develop a callous on my thumb tip before I can open it with less thumb tip pain. Im sure I'll get used to it, what choice do i have as I build my CRK collection?
On the youtube vids some show it so effortless to open their CRKs. I wish I could reach that ease of opening as in some of those vids.

 

[TLR]

I've found that when I think my CRK knife is stiff its because I over-torqued the pivot or I'm squeezing the locker without realizing it. One easy way to see is to hold the locker off the blade and see how it swings in such a condition. I'm not talking about bending the locker back permanently just removing it and the detent ball from the equation to see how the blade swings on the pivot unencumbered.

 

[Mo2]

I only use the crk grease and it swings fine. No need for expensive gimmick lubes. Your action will depend on the lockbar/detent more than the pivot. Just keep the detent and detent track really clean.

 

[expidia1]

I've found that when I think my CRK knife is stiff its because I over-torqued the pivot or I'm squeezing the locker without realizing it. One easy way to see is to hold the locker off the blade and see how it swings in such a condition. I'm not talking about bending the locker back permanently just removing it and the detent ball from the equation to see how the blade swings on the pivot unencumbered.

Thx for the tip. I tried that this AM as I had a Rike I just bought used here that was giving me stiff opening issues. The Rike is such a narrow knife that it is hard not to press on the lockbar while pushing down on the flipper tab. But the issue turned out to be the lockbar was so overly tight it was squeezing the ceramic ball too hard int its detent. Getting the blade to open from a folding position until the ball left the detent was a bitch.
I took it apart and with a few bending adjustments to the lockbar, I got it to where its working super easy now as the knife was designed to do in fact its my current favorite EDC.

So this AM I tried to see if that could be an issue with the 21. But as a credit to the construction of a Seb you can pretty much put a decent amount of pressure on the lock bar with very little effect to the blade swing.

 

[expidia1]

I only use the crk grease and it swings fine. No need for expensive gimmick lubes. Your action will depend on the lockbar/detent more than the pivot. Just keep the detent and detent track really clean.

Thx. Being that this is my 2nd Seb to work the exact same way Im attributing the action to be either they need a long time to break in or the washer thickness quality control gets by CRK. From what I read and view on youtube its a known issue.

When I asked this in my post right after I took my first Seb. out of the box the thread quickly became heated and basically turned into that I should not even be thinking of altering my 21 in anyway, shape or form and I should do myself a favor and look to other brands. I can understand why many feel that way as just from the historic history of this iconic brand.

But as I said, I'm not a flicker, just trying to make opening and closing a little easier on my thumb joint towards more painless one hand operation. I got the 21 thinking a bigger blade my be a little smoother, but no cigar so far

And Im sure for those with large hands they have no issues. This was why I started with the small 21 as I dont have large hands.

 

[TLR]

Does your 21 have the stepped pivot? My understanding was the CRK had gone away from them? I know the 25 and Umnum do not have them. You can over tighten the pivots on these knives. Due to the tolerances there is a very small "sweet spot."

 

[expidia1]

Does your 21 have the stepped pivot? My understanding was the CRK had gone away from them? I know the 25 and Umnum do not have them. You can over tighten the pivots on these knives. Due to the tolerances there is a very small "sweet spot."

It was born 9/19/2016 and is in pristine condition, so it probably never reached a break in point. I doubt it was carried much, if at all. Loosening the piviot screw (which looks to be their standard smooth round type) or tightening it to the point that the allen wrench bends slightly has no effect on the openng and closing stiffness.

I've had it apart twice first time to clean and lube it. Second time to check that the washers were seated properly.

 

[Ajack60]

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/best-lube-for-the-sebenza.698942/

This thread was started in 09, you might find it useful. Don’t believe everything you see on YouTube. The problem is that you’re new to CRK, not CHK . So, it seems that a CRK is stiff. It’s only after you’ve had one for a while that they get smoother. That stems from muscle memory and wear in time. I’ve had CRK’s now for several years and even when I open up a new CRK, I don’t feel the stiffness in the knife, that’s because my muscle memory has developed for CRK’s.
Only time will make it smoother, if it’s altered to speed up the process, then the life of the knife will diminish.

 

[expidia1]

Ok thx will read that link.

Here is a pic of my thumb:

 

[Sergeua]

Imagine that the distance between the scale and thumbstud point (knife closed) is your spydie hole. Push your thumb into it and open the knife like it's a spyderco. Basically your putting pressure to the side of the thumbstud on its ramp and getting some leverage by pushing off the scale as you break detent. Large 21 is more comfortable to open as you have more space.

Also it does matter on both of my sebenzas how much you tighten them.
To troubleshoot and find out you can see what's going on like so:
Loosen all screws. Make sure the body screws are not tight. (The screw on the end doesn't matter that much just leave the stop pin screw loose)
Tighten the pivot a bit. Put a cotton swab or something to hold the lockbar in disengaged position or just hold it open with your fingers as you see/feel how the blade swings. Check for side to side play. Wiggle blade by the tip.
Keep tightening and feeling the blade. Get it to a point where there's no play and it swings freely. (This result can vary and will tell us things)

Now tighten the stop pin screw. Do it all the way if you want to. You just want to see if it has any affect on how the blade swings.

So your experience may differ and you might learn a few things. Let me know how it went and we can go from there.
Those washers vary in thickness and it's up to a person putting it together to fit everything. Its not a slip in their qc as i understood from your earlier statement.

Also side note. Its good to have a caliper if you are going adjust things like lockbar tension on precision products. Probably a reason why they told you earlier in your previous thread not to mess with anything. I'd leave that idea alone too.

Back on topic. The crk grease is what you want for a nice slow opening. I like to flick mine and the boker oil works good for me it feels like it's better for high speed lol. At this point my crk is smooth it doesn't matter what i use probably and those are the only lubes i tired.

 

[expidia1]

Imagine that the distance between the scale and thumbstud point (knife closed) is your spydie hole. Push your thumb into it and open the knife like it's a spyderco. Basically your putting pressure to the side of the thumbstud on its ramp and getting some leverage by pushing off the scale as you break detent. Large 21 is more comfortable to open as you have more space.

I'll practice that, thx

 

[expidia1]

Ok, now that I've had another night to play with this large Sebenza 21 . . . my small Sebenza I only held for a few hours prior to shipping back to CRK to center the blade and see if they can loosen the stiff action.

So what I'm seeing here is closer to the response left by TLR in post #4 in that its probably not oversized washers as much as the design of the lockbar's ceramic ball riding constantly against the blade.
He was correct in that if I held the lockbar off the blade, the blade should swing very freely (and it does just that) so this shows that it at least in my case, its not the washers being oversized its the lockbar that gives this knife its hydraulic action. Take the lockbar off the blade and its as loose as any flipper but clearly the washers do give this knife its iconic smoothness.

This is just one thread, but I've searched out a solution to this issue after I sent my small Sebenza back by viewing youtube videos and google and in these forums . . . yet I have never seen the lockbar discussed as the reason for perceived stiffness in a CRK's action coming mostly (as I'm seeing it and correct me if Im wrong) from the constant pressure of the ceramic ball riding along the blade. I'm not trying to change an iconic design here. I see from many comments and threads after a break in period the knife's action gets much better as the washers break in more which probably over rides the lockbar pressure. And I'm not saying I've discovered something new with this lockbar's constant pressure, its just not something that was ever mentioned in previous thread I've read until TLR's comment

I think from seeing youtube issues and thread complaints on the perceeived stiffness of a particular models action many people just send the knife back thinking its just not for them as they thought it was designed to have a similar action of a flipper!
Some will say "well you should have done your homework" but if you do your home work most videos show how effortless their CRK's work for them (and most say there is a break in period).
But reading and watching videos can't give you the bit of a shocker feeling as you take your new +$350 CRK purchase out of the box and feel its action.

What I've learned. . . unless you actually get one of the few with oversized washers that got past quality control, don't bother chasing the thinner washer solution and voiding your liftime warranty. Its the lockbar that gives newer or rarely opened and closed CRK's most of their early on stiffness. Then as is always touted in the threads also give it time for the washers settle in the action will get more like what most of the CRK users enjoy. I think i read too that a track devleops on the blade from the ball which if this is true, this would also make the action easier.

I'm already looking for my 3rd CRK to add to my collection.

It will be interesting to see and measure with my micrometer when I get the small Seb. back if CRK's factory service centers the blade (which I'm sure they will) but since I also asked them to loosen the action and knowing from the youtube vids most Sebs. come with washers near .041 (I measured mine and both sides are .041) and if I measure them again after I get it back . . . if they measure .01 less then I will know CRK shaved the washers down to loosen the action. From what I can see if they actually did this, all it serves to do is speed up the break in period of said washers. This is why I highly doubt they would shave the washers as a fix. My bet is it will come back exactly the same.

Lastly, on the lube. I took it apart last night and cleaned off the CRK grease as that was not doing it for me. I know it works for most owners, but their knives are probably already broken in.
I applied the finish line extreme fluoro pepe grease from its syringe that was recommended earlier here and that made a difference in the action over the CRK grease. But I also read the CRK grease gets slicker as it dries (I dont know how long that would take).
This AM I also applied a few drops to the pivot of the finish line dry bike lube and so far Im seeing the combination of the two (I think was mentioned by another poster above) works even better together. I don't know how long that dry lube will last, but both together should get me by my break in period. I also think the case may be some of the dry lube worked its way to the ceramic ball making the lockbar ball pressure slicker. It has about a 25% lockup anyway, so oil on it shouldn't be an issue. I don't use knives as choppers.

And thanks for all the responses to help me isolate the issue. Love the knife along with the input I get from experienced members here

P.S. whats the abbreviation most used in these forums for a Sebenza?
I've been using Seb. but I know if I don't fall inline with EXACTLY the way its done here, I get flack . I see Zaan is used for the Umnumzaan.

 

[tuica]

I have thumb tendinitis that makes folding knife operation painful. I found that Sebenzas, or any other folders with two studs, are easier to open. I have a technique whereby I push the opposite stud with my index finger when opening.

Of course you need a knife with two thumb studs, and only discovered this somewhat accidentally while fooling around with my Seb 25. Hope this tip helps some of you older knifemen, and good luck in finding your solution.

 

[Ajack60]

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/adjusting-lockbar-tension.1526654/

Maybe you’re searching in the wrong places. This took all of two minutes to find.
Where are you getting your information about over sized washers ???
When I think over sized washers, I think the diameter is bigger than the intended size, wha are you thinking.

 

[BellaBlades]

CRK lube has been the best for overall smooth operation and never interferes with lock up.

 

[expidia1]

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/adjusting-lockbar-tension.1526654/

Maybe you’re searching in the wrong places. This took all of two minutes to find.
Where are you getting your information about over sized washers ???
When I think over sized washers, I think the diameter is bigger than the intended size, wha are you thinking.

Thanks Ill read that linked thread. All I could find video wise last night was tips on lockbar tightness.
As in oversized I mean "the thickness". So you are saying you have never seen the various videos on thinning down the washers "thickness"???
I was pointed to those vids from members here.

Through reading here and watching youtube and reading the comments left on the vids, I can see readily see there is an inherent divide between the two mediums and it gets testy at times from both sides. To learn more about this hobby I read and watch both and then draw my own conclusions. As example, many here despise Nick Shabazz's reviews on the various CRK models (I for one certainly despise is "voice", but he is funny) and the same goes for the ApostleP. I find them both fair and balanced for the most part. But how can one trust "any" reviewer that may be getting pricey knives sent to them for their review. Then again who could afford to go out and buy each model they review. I think some of these guys have knives sent to them by owners which in that case might get us a fairer review.

P.S. just read the first line or two in your link. Excerpt: I do not want to reveal the person's name because it's not relevant and don't want any bashing to go his way.

Haha "bashing" . . . I've never experienced that yet in some of the threads I've started

Ok I read the link. I didn't have to read it to know the directon it would instantly evolve into. Anytime some ask a reasonable question some of the CRK referees comeout of the woodwork and immediately respond with don't ever do that to a CRK!
It usually ends with a mod stepping in to close the thread. That link was about to end with the mod closing it but he just said to loosen the tension on the lockbar might render the knife dangerous as without a certain level of pressure on the detent ball it could release in your pocket etc. now that was GOOD ANSWER!

See this is why we ask questions. Loosening the tension bar on my Rike made it work as designed and since I bought it used I suspected a previous owner might have actually bent the lockbar tighter because it only looks to be a 15% lockup when it operates correctly.

What I recently learned is that the later the lock up, the less one will get with the life of that knife. Eventually it will lock up all the way over to the right as parts wear. Then parts need to be replaced (if possible for that brand). The CRK's seem to run at a 25 to 50% lockup (at least the two I own) by design and because of its metal quality and its build quality that bar is not going to travel that much over its life.

Im not trying to teach members here (how could I) other then leave tips that I've learned for those of us like me that are new to the hobby.

 

[Ajack60]

I’ve got at least 50 CRK’s, my safe queens haven’t been taken apart by me. No need to. I’ve taken apart most all that I own. That ranges from early Sebenza’s to 2017. I’ve got them with solid washers, the round hole washers and the ones that are being used today. I have yet to see one where the washers extend beyond the pivot bushing, making it too thick. What amazes me is that when you put the washers and the blade together, the sum of those three equals the length of the pivot bushing. Maybe I’m just lucky that I’ve never seen one that the washer is beyond the pivot bushing, but I doubt it. Now, I have seen where a burr on the washer has caused resistance and has been removed. I believe the washers are stamped out, so little inconsistencies will occur with the washers. As a matter of fact, in the two part video of the CRK shop tour, there is one segment that shows a Sebenza being fitted for a blade. I did see the washers being honed to make it smoother. I don’t think it was polished, just honed. But, in case you missed that video in your search, it’s very educational to watch. I believe BladeHQ made the video.

 

[expidia1]

Imagine that the distance between the scale and thumbstud point (knife closed) is your spydie hole. Push your thumb into it and open the knife like it's a spyderco. Basically your putting pressure to the side of the thumbstud on its ramp and getting some leverage by pushing off the scale as you break detent. Large 21 is more comfortable to open as you have more space

Maybe in time that will work for me with practice, but my thumb can't get into the position you describe. And It's been suggested to me to push the stud more outwards (to the left) rather than a circle upwards. So far, The motion that has been working for me is my thumbnail almost directly below the stud (a little to the right of it) and 3 out of 10 times it opens pefectly and snaps into locked position without any wrist motion. But for those 3 times I also had to focus my mind on the stud and my thumb like Im trying to levitate a table into the air . As I've said, its too bad that these models for the price we pay do not work as they are deigned to right out of the box. Why have to suffer with thumb pain and a potentially long break in period. I'm sure this would move a lot more CRK models for their company and they would accept a lot less returns and complaints as to its operation out of the box. But who am I to suggest this . . . just some guy whose been in marketing (not for knives) for a lot longer than the Sebenza has been produced.