Sebenza Clone

[USAFSP]

Yeah well someone is going to get mine for only $16.00, so I would call that a deal and a half. LOL :thumbup:

 

[stjames]

I got to handle one of these at TAD yesterday and it is a nice knife with plenty of good features, stonewashed blade, tip up/down carry, lanyard hole, no blade play, decent lock-up and comfortable. There are also very few titanium handled frame-lock folders offered in the 3" blade range. From the PDF on the Bradley website they use the same blade stock with an increase in handle thickness of less than 2/100ths of an inch on the larger Alias I, which might be a little too thin for my tastes on a folder of that size.

It is a shameless Sebenza clone, no doubt about it. Same sizes offered, same color scheme, same lock style, going after the same market share. Like most production knife makers they don't offer the details you find on the CRK product, pivot bushing, stop pin sleeve, titanium spacers and clip, hand ground blades. Some of these are just niceties, some actually increase the useful life of the knife.

After examining just one sample and not using the knife I can't say if it is worth the current price, but I don't think it is an improvement over the BM 635 or Buck 172 as far as execution of design. Hopefully the price will settle in line with its real competition in the coming months, as there is no reason the Alias I should be $100 more than the similarly sized BM 635 that is being produced from the same materials at the same facility. Benchmade is really producing a good frame-lock these days, the winner in all this is the consumer.

 

[USAFSP]

Very true with all of that. I think the mistake was in the marketing. I mean of course all the Sebenza nuts out there would have seen through the smoke, but other than the obvious it is a very very good knife. I had some fun with it for a few days, and am ready to pass it on so other can see it. My Sebenza is in my pocket now after all. LOL I think in the end the owner of the Alias is going to end up with an excellent frame lock, with great comfort and matching asthetics. The one I am contributing to the passaround/lottery has perfect blade action, and lockup with no play. It is a solid folder.

 

[allenC]

I don't think the marketing was cheesy or lame or deceptive at all.

In fact, it was refreshing to read such an honest advertisement.

When was the last time you heard GM, Chrysler, or Ford say:

"We think the Honda Accord is king of the mid-size family sedans, and quite honestly, we're doing our best to copy it".

Everytime someone makes a titanium handle frame-lock that is affordable to the average Joe, the Sebenza fans go in to a bashing frenzy.

I can appreciate the Benchmade Pinnacle, and the CRKT S-2, and the Bradley Alias for what they are--tough, well-made, titanium frame-locks, with less prefection than the Sebenza, offered at a lower price.

Allen.

 

[DaveH]

Benchmade Pinnacle, and the CRKT S-2,

Neither of which are still made. The Gerber(?) Ti airframe never even made it out of the starting blocks. I can appreciate the marketing segment, but it still a tough area to be in.

I think only the Buck Mayo and the ATR are the only "production" knives currently in that segment.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It is a shameless Sebenza clone, no doubt about it.

With a different handle shape, blade profile and point, primary grind and likely edge profile. They are also fairly clear that the design is based on the Sebenza with an attempt at various enhancements. A clone by defination tries to copy a design as close as possible to the origional, this is hardly the case here.

Some of these are just niceties, some actually increase the useful life of the knife.

There is a huge deal made of the bushing of the Sebenza, arguing that it alone defines a blade class but what real evidence is it that it is actually addressing a weak point?

How many people have had to retire the high end production folders (Buck/Mayo, 710 Axis, Paramilitary) because they developed unacceptable blade play through uses normally seen with Sebenza's and the companies refused to service them?

I have only seen this reported on the forums with a couple of FRN Spyderco's, which are only a fraction of the cost of the Sebenza and thus it would be far cheaper to just replace the FRN model, which of course also gives you a fresh blade and grip.

I have however personally seen many folder blades actually worn out to the point where they would need to be reground and the pivot is still fine.

-Cliff

 

[stjames]

With a different handle shape, blade profile and point, primary grind and likely edge profile. They are also fairly clear that the design is based on the Sebenza with an attempt at various enhancements. A clone by defination tries to copy a design as close as possible to the origional, this is hardly the case here.

Would you prefer the term rip-off?

There is a huge deal made of the bushing of the Sebenza, arguing that it alone defines a blade class...

Don't forget the stop pin design which helps prevent the onset of blade play and the user serviceability which would void the BM warranty provided on this knife.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Would you prefer the term rip-off?

Would you describe the lock as a shameless rip off of the Walker liner? Or an attempt by Reeve to improve Walkers design which was obviously his starting point?

-Cliff

 

[stjames]

Would you describe the lock as a shameless rip off of the Walker liner? Or an attempt by Reeve to improve Walkers design which was obviously his starting point?

-Cliff

Shameless? Reeve has always credited Walker. Your reaching pretty hard now, my friend.

 

[DaveH]

bushing..but what real evidence

I have personal experience, which may not qualify as "evidence" but none the less is sufficienct for me. It's really very simple, sooner or later on a non sebenza knife that has an adjustable pivot, the pivot will loosen or otherwise need adjustment and possibly because of blade play.

If you tighten too much it's won't open easily, though the play is gone, loosen it up so it opens easily and there's blade play. I don't have the time or inclination to monkey with trying to get it "just right". I have had > 5 knives which cost more then $100 with this type of problem. In fact on several of these the factory itself could not fix. For a FRN or $50 folder it doesn't matter, but once you get above $100 and above it matters to me.

You think a knife that's not warrantied against flipping is unacceptable.

I think that any knife that is marketed as "premium", which I arbitraily set at $100, must have a pivot "barrel" bushing, if not it's just gonna hose up sooner or later.

The blade bushing is a better engineering solution as it removes pivot tension for the lockup and opening equation. To me it's worth it and I'm willing to pay for it. I'm sure for others it's not.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have had > 5 knives which cost more then $100 with this type of problem. In fact on several of these the factory itself could not fix.

So your returned them and they told you to just buy a new one? Which knives and how long were they in use? Was there any other damage or wear?

You think a knife that's not warrantied against flipping is unacceptable.

No, there are lots of knives I would not flip, however I do think any decent one handed opener which is promoted for hard use should be able to be flipped based on the simple reason that many can. If you want to market a gents knife I can understand why you could argue it is unreasonable, though problematic because again it is trivial to find knives that can.

Reeve has always credited Walker.

So has Bradley very clearly, why the double standard?

-Cliff

 

[allenC]

Cliff is right.
Chris Reeve gives credit to Michael Walker, and Bradley gives credit to Chris Reeve--what's the problem?

Nobody is saying that the Sebenza is'nt a great knife (even Bradley maintains that the Sebenza is "the King"), but to say that a knife is a "rip-off" or a "clone" is to imply that they not good knives.

People are inspired by what others have done and they often seek to make it better or more affordable or easier to manufacture.
Reeve took Walker's basic idea of the liner-lock and made it better.
But before that, Walker took the idea of the leaf-lock and made it better.

The Buck 110 was around long before the Endura, but that does'nt mean that Sal Glesser "ripped-off" the Buck design.


DaveH,

"I think only the Buck Mayo and the ATR are the only "production" knives currently in that segment"

Don't forget the Benchmade Skirmish and Mini-Skirmish.

Allen.

 

[stjames]

So has Bradley very clearly, why the double standard?

-Cliff

Does homage sit better with you?

No double standard. What Reeve did was expand on a design idea. What Bradley is doing is going directly after the Sebenza market share, like a lot of other knife companies. Most of them at least had the originality to change the color scheme.

Long Live The King!

 

[Simple Man]

Neither of which are still made. The Gerber(?) Ti airframe never even made it out of the starting blocks. I can appreciate the marketing segment, but it still a tough area to be in.

I think only the Buck Mayo and the ATR are the only "production" knives currently in that segment.

Would the ATR be considered in that segment since it is a compression lock instead of a traditional frame lock?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What Reeve did was expand on a design idea.

Yes, he took an existing product, and altered it so in his opinion it was improved.

What Bradley is doing ...

Is taking an existing product and altering it so in his opinion it is improved. The entire blade is different, profile, and grind, and the handle has a different shape.

...directly after the Sebenza market share...

He does indeed make it pretty clear it is an alternative to the Sebenza in his opinion. Lots of people will market by direct competition, it is probably the easiest way to promote products.

Les Roberston used to use Phil Hartsfield's name to sell R.J. Martin's knives in the same manner for example. The comparison will either hold, in which case the promotion works, or it fails in which case it will likely cease to be used.

-Cliff

 

[stjames]

He does indeed make it pretty clear it is an alternative to the Sebenza in his opinion. Lots of people will market by direct competition, it is probably the easiest way to promote products.

-Cliff

So we go from homage to riding coattails? Let me know when I get warm.

 

[allenC]

Riding coat-tails?

Let's see...I wonder if Chris Reeve ever heard of Bob Terzoula or Sal Glesser?

Was'nt it Mr. Terzoula who is credited to making some of the very first "tacticals" (one-hand locking folders)?

And was'nt it Sal Glesser who first started putting pocket-clips on folders?

Just because someone did something first, that does'nt mean that their idea cannot be improved.

I once started a thread on the CR forum "Build a better 'Benza".
Many of you guys posted various ways that you thought that the Sebenza could be improved.
So now we have a company that is willing to TRY and improve upon a great design, or at least offer it for less, and some folks give them nothing but grief.

It's almost as if they think that the Bradleys some how lessen the status of their own Sebenzas.

All knife lovers should be glad that Bradley (and Benchmade) are making these knives.

Allen.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So we go from homage to riding coattails?

The integral lock on the Sebenza is often promoted as superior in design to liner locks. Is this "riding the coat tails" of Walker?

Did Reeve invent pocket clips and thumb studs? Is he the first to use that blade profile?

-Cliff

 

[robertmegar]

I agree with the above post. Ridicule and criticism is a normal response when civilized humans feel threatened.

Are Sebenza owners feeling threatened?

 

[stjames]

So now we have a company that is willing to TRY and improve upon a great design, or at least offer it for less, and some folks give them nothing but grief.

It's almost as if they think that the Bradleys some how lessen the status of their own Sebenzas.

All knife lovers should be glad that Bradley (and Benchmade) are making these knives.

Allen.

Yea, what a bunch of jerks.

I got to handle one of these at TAD yesterday and it is a nice knife with plenty of good features, stonewashed blade, tip up/down carry, lanyard hole, no blade play, decent lock-up and comfortable. There are also very few titanium handled frame-lock folders offered in the 3" blade range... Benchmade is really producing a good frame-lock these days, the winner in all this is the consumer.

Especially me

So what are they doing? Not marketing a Sebenza clone, not selling a rip-off, not making a homage, not riding coattails so far up Chris Reeves rear they could be mistaken for a Proctologist, not getting a major knife company to produce a frame-lock with an MSRP $100 over similar knives made by the same company?

Pure genius is what they are, marketing at it’s best. It is time for one of those “Why didn’t I think of that” moments for us all.

How about “Cleaning up with a mop and bucket”? Is that about right?