Sebenza Lock; No Longer Vault-Like

Snoopy · Jan 9, 2001

This is a very interesting thread with some very good points. I do not no enough about this situation to pass judgement on how the knife issues should be handled, just not comforted much by CRK's response on the forum. I agree with Dennis Wrights' assessment, but feel as a recent purchaser of a sebenza that I am not necessarily an unconcerned individual. Maybe my expectations are a little too high?

Respectfully,
David

Gator97 · Jan 9, 2001

Originally posted by Ralf:

Frankly, I don't quite understand where the problem is.
According to him, the prob is that w/o hard use, his knife needed costly repair.

The knife shows wear after being used a lot over three years and a part needs to be replaced. Why should it be free of charge?
The way I understood it, nobody asked for free repair?

It's like buying a motor bike, driving it for three years and expecting a worn out clutch to be replaced for free

Would be nice to see in what mood you'd be when your mechanic asks 33% of your car original price to replace the clutch. Especialy when your car is 3 years old

Let's not forget that your car most likely won't have lifetime warranty either, thus more reasonable to ask that price from you, right?

And it seems logically that an expensive bike (which doesn't necessarily last longer) is more expensive to fix than a cheap one.
& once again, IMHO that's not what CRK is known & respected for. Somehow I don't recall anyone here saying "CRK knives are expensive but don't last long", on the contrary, the claims & reviews say totaly diffrent thing. & by no means Sebenza is a Ferrari or Lamborgini in the knife world, it's a USER, thus rather a Hummer, that's what everyone seems to agree with, after all Sebenza means work in Zulu, right?

P.S. I'm not criticising CRK here, just commenting few arguments in your message Ralf

Otherwise, strange thing it becomes,
as usual tough & durable knife becomes "not necessary long lasting"...

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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 01-09-2001).]

The General · Jan 9, 2001

I am somewhat surprised by the response, but I stand by my posts. CRK are a business. I see abuse from both sides of the fence in my line of work. Where do you draw the line? This is as far as I am aware the first real example of CRK not over covering a knife. It does worry me a bit as the wording does seem more than a little 'miffed' at use knife users who have posted here.

I would have hoped that CRK would have done something different, but it is a business and they have to draw the line at some point. If Chris honestly believed something was not 'right' here, I believe he did honestly believe this to be the case. I do not think there is anything nasty or premeditated here from CRK. They made a call, just like we had to in my work place. I feel worried it has come to this, but what more can be said? I am not trying to take sides here, but getting crude at Anne or CRK is not the answer (not that I am accusing anyone you understand) here or is it ever the answer.

Lets hope this is settled to a satisfactory conclusion to both sides. Nothing lasts forever, but my AFCK has had 2.5 years of constant use, appart from being sent back to rectify a wobble in the blade that was there from day one and the obligitory scale flex and blade scuffing liners oh and the blade becoming off center... I have had no problems. Can you all see my point? CRK are made like a brick **** house, strong and well made. When one fails for whatever reason it is simply a question of mathmatics. It is bound to happen sooner or later. Hope my rambleings can cool this a bit.

W.A.

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"To strive to seek to find and not to yield"
Tennyson
Ranger motto

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 01-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by The General (edited 01-09-2001).]

matthew rapaport · Jan 9, 2001

Frankly, I don't quite understand where the problem is. The knife shows wear after being used a lot over three years and a part needs to be replaced. Why should it be free of charge?

First off, it was 2 years, and that's just plain too little time for so much wear on such an expensive folder whose very reputation (and price) is predicated on its strength and durability. Mine has been used pretty hard (though not abusively so) for 3 years and shows nowhere near that much wear.

Second, the original poster didn't say he expected the repair for free, but 1/3 of the price of a very expensive knife is a little much I would think.

Third, unless the user in question is just out right lying to us all, and really did abuse the knife, it should (imho of course) be repaired for free just on the chance that it was slightly defective to begin with. Not enough to notice at first, but enough to notice after only 2 years of use.

CRK quality control is not perfect. I recently bought a small Seb., and there was a defect in the edge. Normally CRK knives are beautifully sharpened, but mine clearly has a piece of the edge about 1/4" long over ground on one side, a defect that was clearly visible and should not have gotten past QC, but it did. Now in this present case, I understand Chris himself examined the knife and decided that there was no defect at the time it was released to the customer or distributor. On the other hand, he's a busy man, maybe he missed something, or maybe the distributor screwed it up. Who knows. That's why you don't impose such expensive repair charges on otherwise loyal customers.

Scott Dog · Jan 9, 2001

I believe that Lenny had it for three years, it may have been an ATS-34 blade. I don't think that ATS-34 is as durable as BG-42. I also believe that he will be getting a BG-42 replacement blade. He's getting 2/3 of the knife replaced for less than 1/3 of the cost of a new one. Seems like a pretty good deal to me. I think that we should wait and see what Lenny thinks when he gets his knife back.

Schussboomer · Jan 9, 2001

I own 3 sebenzas and one of the main reasons I bought them was because I anticipated they would practically never wear out. Sure, they need to be sharpened and lubed and cleaned, but wear out? I didn't think 3 years of hard use would cause enough wear to indicate the replacement of the back handle slab. But, in this case it happened. IMHO, CRK and the distributor and the retailer all made their profits when the knife was originally sold, so the $100 replacement fee was too much. I can see charging the cost of replacing it, but not making profit on it. From reading all of these posts, it was not worth the $100 for CRK. I believe CRK should have recouped their actual cost, or just taken a small loss and replaced it for free. When you spend several hundred dollars for a production knife, you do it because you figure it will then last you a lifetime.

Firebat · Jan 9, 2001

Originally posted by L. O. Little:

Charging Lenny for the repair has caused more damage to the Sebenza warranty than the entire knife was ever worth.

From another "unconcerned" participant and fellow CR owner (large, small decorated and decorated Umfaan) the above statement is spot on IMHO.

Regardless of the semantics of the warranty or the actual cause of the lock's seemingly extreme wear- I feel CRK would have been better served in the long run by just replacing the knife. A one hundred dollar repair is nothing compared to the potential damage, however intangible at the moment, caused by allowing an open issue like this to exist on this forum.

CRK has certainly enjoyed a long and continued run of praise, compliments, and loyalty through this electronic community- and I'm sure all would agree that their products are a huge reason for this. Yet it's the Reeve's legendary customer service and care that make up the remaining portion of it, and I would have fully expected CRK to have realized the greater potential benefit by just fixing the knife in contrast to the perceived benefit of protecting the semantics of their warranty.

Sure, it's easy to be an armchair quarterback, and every situation must be evaluated and handled accordingly. So, from the information put forward thus far, you have a disappointed customer, and a response from the manufacturer that doesn't seem to be in accordance with said manufacturer's reputation.

If we were speaking about 13" TV's in the UK

this might not be such an extraordinary occurence.

However- it happens that we're talking about the manufacturer of a product with a reputation of being the best in the world with warranty and service to match, and this customer has instant access to over 9,000 potential fellow customers.

It's a different playing field altogether.

Firebat

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Name's Ash......Housewares.

JoHnYKwSt · Jan 10, 2001

I would like to add something to this discussion. I am not questioning either Lenny or CRK, I am merely giving an experience I've had with my sebenza. I had a small sebenza for a full year which I opened and closed obsessively. We are talking at least 30 times a day every day. I hardly ever flicked the knife open. I just opened it how I thought it should be opened. I never babied the knife and in a year the only thing that I could see that wore was the ceramic ball bearing. The lock bar face hardly showed any wear and engaged the tang at the same place.

Larry Fasnacht · Jan 11, 2001

I wonder if this topic would be different if everyone at CRK wasn't gone?

Cliff Stamp · Jan 10, 2001

A 100$ functional upkeep on a high end folder every couple of years seems very excessive to me. I made a post about this in the custom forum as since the Sebenza is compared to custom folders on a regular basis I was interested to see how it does in this regard.

-Cliff

matthew rapaport · Jan 10, 2001

When you spend several hundred dollars for a production knife, you do it because you figure it will then last you a lifetime.

That sums it up pretty well. I know that's why I bought them.

Dennis Wright · Jan 10, 2001

I doubt that anything would be different if they were here. Anne has already stated their position and she is one of the most consistant people that I have ever met.

According to the first post, the knife is three years old, not two. It had been sent back, at least once, for "refinishing/tune-up". (The other time was for engraving.) This, to me, indicates that the knife was seeing some significant use, as they just don't need that, under normal conditions, until they are considerably older.

Someone said that CRK shouldn't make a profit on the repair. Why not? If it is service beyond the warranty (which it apparantly is) then why wouldn't they make a profit? That's what business does. It's how we survive.

Do you think that the parts department at an automobile dealer sells replacement parts at cost? I doubt it. Why should a knife manufacturer? One doesn't stay in business by losing money.

For that matter, how do you know that he is making a profit. Titanium isn't cheap, and finished titanium parts are extremely expensive to produce, not to mention the time and labor involved in fitting the part. He is also replacing the blade. I doubt that there is much profit in that $100.00.

Finally, the word "unconcerned" seems to offend some folks. Sorry 'bout that but, face it, this is between Lenny and CRK. Anyone else is an unconcerned party. Maybe I should have said "non-principal", or possibly, "bystander". It's obvious that some folks have taken sides on this issue but it's really not their affair.

Of course you're interested and, if you want to call that "concern", that's up to you. However, the only one who is owed any explanation or justification is the person who actually owns that particular knife. If you don't have a problem with your knife, then you don't have a problem. Why transfer his situation to yourself simply because you own, a Sebenza? Untill it happens to you, you don't have a problem.

Personally, I think it shows great sense to avoid trying to argue or defend a situation with a group of people that appear to be spring-loaded to the negative without the benefit of all of the facts.

The demand for an "explanation" by a bunch of people who are not involved in the transaction is unreasonable, unwarranted and a clear warning that it is a brier patch that no reasonably intelligent person would want to jump into.

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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")

Ralf · Jan 10, 2001

Gator, while my posting was addressed to Lenny I nonetheless thank you for taking the time to comment on it. Let me try to clarify it some more.

According to him, the prob is that w/o hard use, his knife needed costly repair.

There is no way the integral lock could have worn out without hard use. Things like that don't just happen. If the lock wore out, than it was from using the knife many times.

The way I understood it, nobody asked for free repair?

Lenny asked if we would expect better warranty service. That of course would mean a replacement free of charge.

Would be nice to see in what mood you'd be when your mechanic asks 33% of your car original price to replace the clutch. Especialy when your car is 3 years old Let's not forget that your car most likely won't have lifetime warranty either, thus more reasonable to ask that price from you, right?

The motorcycle example was supposed to demonstrate the relationship between usage and wear. It didn't relate to the price of the repair. For this let's take a closer look at what happened here.

The Sebenza is made of three major components. The blade, the left and the right handle slab. While the blade could be slightly more expensive, the right slab could be more expensive than the left one since it has the machining for the integral lock. Overall let's just say that each part is about 1/3 of the total price. That makes around $100.- if the right slab needs to be replaced.

& once again, IMHO that's not what CRK is known & respected for. Somehow I don't recall anyone here saying "CRK knives are expensive but don't last long", on the contrary, the claims & reviews say totaly diffrent thing. & by no means Sebenza is a Ferrari or Lamborgini in the knife world, it's a USER, thus rather a Hummer, that's what everyone seems to agree with, after all Sebenza means work in Zulu, right?

While you are right with your translation of the work Sebenza, you might be slightly off with your assumption that a Sebenza lasts substantially longer than folders which cost just a third of it. Best example would be the Benchmade Pinnacle. Similar constructed as the Sebenza it should show similar wear characteristics while the price is less than one third. Then take the Axis lock line. My guess is that this lock type should be as long lasting as any integral lock out there. On the other side of the spectrum would be a custom made Darrell Ralph Apogee. If suped up it can easily go for $600. Do you really think it is double as sturdy or would last double the time a Sebenza would?

It is safe to say that there is almost no correlation between the price and how wear resistant/sturdy a knife is. While price is in general build by supply and demand you usually get better precision, workmanship, materials and service etc. for a higher priced knife. That doesnt mean that repairs are going to be cheap. On the contrary. The more expensive knife is almost always more expensive to fix.

In summary:
Knives wear out, period. The more you use them, the higher the wear. While it is quite unusual to wear out a Sebenza over a three year period, IT IS POSSIBLE. Nothing to get overly exited about. Its not a design or construction flaw, but mere physics. A Sebenza is not the everlasting Holy Grail we would like it to be, but rather a nice piece of machining. Titanium itself is rather soft and when scraped by the much harder steel blade during the opening process, it will wear off over time to the point where it needs to be replaced. Many people here (me included) can confirm that this usually takes quite some time. Nevertheless an accelerated wear seems to be possible in rare occasions. Maybe the slab got bent when sat on for almost three years

Sure, it would be nice to get it fixed under warranty, but after almost three years of usage, it is more than fair to charge for the repair. We here who have not seen the knife in question are in no position to criticize Chris decision. In the anonymity of the internet its easy to become an expert and give an opinion on things. Thats why I find it rather annoying to describe the (under time restrains given) response from CRK as piss poor and give the postings of people not involved in this matter whatsoever more weight than the judgment of Chris Reeve. Thats exactly whats hurting the reputation and not the fact that he charged for a repair.

RGRAY · Jan 10, 2001

I thought I was buying a knife for life when I bought my 4 Sebenzas.

I don't think Anne gave much of an explaination.

Let's see if Lenny is happier when he gets his knife back with the newer blade.

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Rick Gray - Left Handers Unite

Gator97 · Jan 10, 2001

Hi Ralf,

Pardon if I was harsh or something like that in my msg. Basically my point or question, rather was "what should I expect from an expensive user knife".

Nobody argues that the knife will wear when used, just depends how much it will.

I suspect if that was the normal case with Sebenza for example, there won't be that many folks out there so excited about it. I mean, if it would need 100$ repair every 3 year when used. I don't want ot make assumptions or allegations based on the single case though.

I was rather concerned with the position that it's ok for the expensive USER knife to require expensive repairs in relatively short period of time.

Once again, standart Sebenza is not a presentation blade. Yes, there are decorated ones, but those have different price tags too.
Starting from the manufacturer and ending with Sebenza users, everyone claims it to be a user knife, built like a tank, lasting lifetime, etc, etc... Correct me if I am wrong please.

That all doesn't really
correspond with your statement - you might be slightly off with your assumption that a Sebenza lasts substantially longer than folders which cost just a third of it.
I also think that CRK will disagree with you on that statement. Otherwise I don't see any point or advantage of getting Sebenza then, it's not a presentation grade, it's not gonna last longer, what's left? Cutting performance? How many times better it should cut to justify 3 times higher price then? It's not a laser sword after all, I have other BG-42 blades, so I can imagine.

I'm not putting Sebenza down, especially that I do not own one, just can someone explain their position, what's so good about an expensive knife intended to be used, if it doesn't last longer than cheaper production knives.

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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

Firebat · Jan 10, 2001

Originally posted by Dennis Wright:

Of course you're interested and, if you want to call that "concern", that's up to you. However, the only one who is owed any explanation or justification is the person who actually owns that particular knife. If you don't have a problem with your knife, then you don't have a problem. Why transfer his situation to yourself simply because you own, a Sebenza? Untill it happens to you, you don't have a problem.

The demand for an "explanation" by a bunch of people who are not involved in the transaction is unreasonable, unwarranted and a clear warning that it is a brier patch that no reasonably intelligent person would want to jump into.

Dennis-

With all due respect, this is where I couldn't disagree more.

The notion that this incident (for lack of a better term and regardless of the outcome)affects only Lenny and CRK escapes me completely. Perhaps it is my meager mental capacity, but why wouldn't current and potential Sebenza owners be sincerely concerned? This is an open forum as far as I know, and I have yet to see any thing that says only positive comments about CRK are allowed.

It would seem quite the contrary, as one of the best things about these forums is the opportunity to do some serious research into a prospective item for purchase. Especially when that item is a $325.00 Sebenza, a significant sum for many people. Don't you think that the consumer wants to and should be as informed as possible? Above you stated that "Until it happens to you, you don't have a problem." Well what if I'm interested in avoiding the problem in the first place? Shouldn't I or anyone for that matter be privy to the details and party to the disussion of this transaction given it were offered by one of the involved parties? It seems pretty obvious that that's what these forums are all about.

Furthermore, why would anyone second guess or try to quantify the sincerity or concern of anyone here?

Should Ford Motor or Firestone have refused to speak to the public in regards to the Explorer roll-overs? Or should they have refused release of any information to the press by saying "until it happens to you, you don't have a problem."?

(yes, I realize the analogy is both extreme and a bit severe, the tragedy of a possibly defective Sebenza in no way equals the tragedy of those who were lost in the accidents- but the point is there)

As for not being involved in the transaction, well you're right, only Lenny and CRK are the involved parties, at least financially. Yet every time there is a post requesting advice on a knife, or a review of a knife, whatever- and there's tons of them- aren't we all involving ourselves in the transaction, if even in some small way? Again, isn't that the point of these forums?

Bottom line- I still believe is this: True cause of damage to knife undetermined. Unhappy customer who has shown good faith in the past and has had the knife back in for 'tuning' and then engraving. It is reasonable to consider, therefore that he understands and appreciates the quality of his Sebenza, and also reasonable to ascertain that he is not an "abuser". Fix the knife for him. Show him the commitment he has shown you. Explain to him why you are not going to charge him, and reiterate your warranty policy. Happy customer, fixed Sebenza. Everyone wins, and that 100 bucks CRK loses now on the repair pays off untold amounts in the long run.

You cannot BUY advertising as effective as that level of service and customer care. It doesn't mean you have to start handing out free knives to everyone who complains. It just seems that in this instance, it would be better to just do the repairs pro bono given the customer's history with the company.

Reasonable and intelligent-

Firebat

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Name's Ash......Housewares.

Brian Lavin · Jan 10, 2001

I'm with Dennis on this one.

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Buck Collectors Club Member # 572
Dedicated ELU
Knifeknut(just ask my wife)

Gator97 · Jan 10, 2001

With all due respect to all parties involved

1) About involvement - I've sen too many times when an individual X buys or is going to buy a Sebenza or any other knife & gets tons of positive Opinions, nobody has anything against that kind of involvement right?
Why is it wrong to get involved by stating non-positive opinion regarding a certain action or just a plain concern then?
IMHO this is an open forum, more or less

Should be fine with both.
The reason why the forum exists is that people share their ideas and opinions, isn't that so? After all, rare message is personal or private here, for that we have email.

2) I do respect the privacy, yet sometimes the position "Untill it happens to you, you don't have a problem" is not the best one to take. Firebat's example was kindda extreme, but that's life . The same logic can be applied to anything, not only this transaction.

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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

Elvislives · Jan 11, 2001

I've got a large Sebenza, and it's been used and abused. It was (lightly) used when I got it, and I've only had it less than a year, but I use it harshly every week, heck almost every day. I open and close it constantly. I've dropped it, more than once. I'm the guy who posted about the slight blade chipping from jabbing it into the top of beer cans and twisting (for airholes in the tall-boys, that is

)

This knife takes great abuse, and stays rock solid. I've even contemplated someday having to replace the blade from excessive wear.

Point is, that is my experience. After reading these forums for a year now, and this one especially, this thread is the exception and not the rule. I've discussed via email these knives with others here who use and abuse just like me, and have for 3 years or more. This is not a commonly reported problem by any means.

The reply from CRK (spokesperson Anne) included "Chris inspected that knife very closely, he did not make this decision lightly"

With all due respect to you Lenny, the man called you personally. His experience with knifemaking led him to the decision. If you weren't comfortable that his decision was justified, you should not have allowed him to hang up the phone until you understood the rationale behind the decision. Call Mr. Reeve and discuss your concern, and see if he is not reasonable enough to tell you what exactly he saw that made his mind up. If you are still not satisfied, then by all means voice your dissatisfaction.

It would be easy for CRK to eat this cost just to prevent further discussion. But standing on principle and not setting an unreasonable precedent makes good business sense also.

Brandon

Scott Dog · Jan 11, 2001

I've been thinking about this for a couple of days. The guarantee states that this knife is guaranteed for life. Exceptions are made for natural materials, incorrect applications, neglect or abuse. It doesn't say anything about it wearing out under normal use. I now think that the CRK guarantee is at best misleading and in my opinion amounts to deceptive advertising. Think about it. "Guaranteed for life". Whose life? This is not right. It should read "guaranteed for life as long as it doesn't break".

[This message has been edited by Scott Dog (edited 01-11-2001).]