Sebenza Lock; No Longer Vault-Like

WOW !
I was just about to bite the bullet and buy the large Sebenza for my trip to Alaska, but now I am not so sure.
I would expect a knife of CRK's quality to not wear out so quickly.
I do not have a problem with paying for my neglect, but merely flicking a folder open several times is going too far to claim neglect.
I really would like to hear from Chris on monday.
Since I am in New Orleans maybe I'll see him at the SHOT show.


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Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way!!!!
 
I don't know Lenny, and this is not intended as a knock against Lenny, but....

It is comical to me that all of the negative posts here are willing to toss Mr. Reeve's reputation out the window over this one instance. People are "reluctant to buy" based upon one situation with a person they probably don't even know.

I'll stick with my CRK's. If you don't, that's your right as a consumer.
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Brandon
 
Unbelievable
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I have been a member here for over a year and this is the first case of (premature?) wear I have seen posted regarding a Sebenza. After reading all these posts from the "Sebenzanistas" about how hard they have used their knives, how solid they are, how great they are, etc., I find it shocking that there are now replies stating that "I don't know if I should buy one now", "I probably won't buy another", etc. If you have used one of these knives for a period of time and it has not failed you, why would you question your buying decision based on someone elses experience alone and rule out your own? If you sharpen your blade down to a nub, do you expect Chris to replace it also? I would hope not. Wear is wear and I don't care who builds the knife, it will happen. Those of you thinking that this knife is indestructible and will last forever, even when used hard and often, really need to look at the knife for what it is. A tool. Not an indescructable icon.

Here is a company with an outstanding reputation who is being judged because of a wear problem associated with ONE knife. As stated, this knife had been sent back before for a refurbishing. Another poster has stated that the cost to him was $75 for this type of work. Wanna bet that when the defective knife is returned to the owner it will also look like new? Follow me here folks;

1 lightly used blade + 1 new handle slab +1 refurb = $100

1 refurb = $75

Where is the problem?

As for all the potential lost sales. I guess my wait time will be that much less
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Blademan: You have hit the nail on the head! My last post was made after working a hard 14 hour shift dealing with dying people and their relatives. You are right. Lenny is getting 2/3 of a new knife for 1/3 of the price. But as this thread will attest, many people have admitted to abusing their Sebenzas for long period of time. look at some of Nemos posts. That guy is crazy! He throws his Sebenza for and his knife works very well. Lenny is the only person that I have ever seen in this forum to critisize the quality of CRK. With all due respect to Chris and company, make no mistake, he makes a fine (Okay, a very very very fine product). Buying a Sebenza is probably the best knife money can buy. Chris has always been good to me and his products that I have purchased from him are flawless and I would not hesitate to recommend a Sebenza to anyone who wants a well made knife. The saying that you get what pay for applies here. For your money in my opinion you get one of the best folders made period. Lenny's situation is a very very rare exception, in fact the only negative Sebenza comment. It just seems to me that with all these people thrashing their Sebys without apparent negative effect why did Lennys fail?
AG Russell has a guaranty that if you buy something from him and 10 years later you don't like it, he will give you back your money, no questions asked, even if you just didn't like the color. I bought some of his knives and they just didn't work for me and I got my money back. Chris is an honest but a stuborn man and he knows knives. He must have a very good reason for not honoring Lennys request and it is a good deal that he offered him. I just think that the "Lifetime guarantee" needs to be modified and it is not reasonable for him to offer it so that people can justify paying $300 for a knife. I have 5 Sebenzas and I am happy with all of them. My wife will kill me if I get another. In conclusion (and after a good nights sleep) although I am disapointed by this situation, I feel that we are not getting the whole story here and I would without reservation recommend the purchase of at least one Sebenza and would bet money that if you purchase one you will be quite satisfied. My last post was made late at night and not intended to dicourage the purchase of CRK products. That was not fair of me and I am sorry.
 
It is understandable that the discussion here is distorted by lack of data and strong emotions, especially in the absence (for the moment) of anyone who can speak, and/or make decisions, for CRK. I own two sebs one of which has been used often and dropped now and then (once on a tile floor). It still locks up solid after almost 3 years.

Because of this experience, I know that Lenny's experience is the exception and not the rule, but that can not help to make the reaction of CRK even more disconcerting to people who have not owned one. Why, given that the vast majority of Seb owners are happy with knives that don't wear out for years would Chris not take his own warrenty very literally and just replace the occasional knife that goes bad before its time? If I put myself in others place with respect to other high end knives that I don't own, I have to admit, I'd be asking the same sort of question if something like this happened to people who owned these.

Indeed this sort of thing has come up a few times here on BF. Learning these things about the knife makers on whom we depend for reliable tools is one of the reasons I'm here on BF to begin with, and I can not be speaking only of myself.

Personally, this one incident does not change my opinion of the over-all value of CRK products, but at the same time I do continue to have an interest in how this story unfolds after the SHOT show.


[This message has been edited by matthew rapaport (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
I'm chiming in here just because it seems like people have overlooked the fact that the knife was carried in a back pocket. Seems to me like that could cause slight distortion of the handles, as in just enough to make it so the lock engaged poorly. I know I've thought about carrying knives in my back pocket but never have, simply because I've seen knives (primarily AFCKs) that were slightly warped by being carried in that way. Just my two cents, but maybe before everyone gets carried away debating flicks, this idea should be considered.
 
I like this thread. CRK are big enough boys, have a strong enough reputation, and after all this is only an example where CRK's have charged for a service.

Lenny has coughed up $100 for a service, which for anyone would be a shock, but then again I get one every time my car goes into the garage for a service. His sebenzer couldn't have had much more done to it without having replaced the whole thing. Sedenzer's aren't clones. We wouldn't like them so much if they were. Lenny's, after three years of use, is playing up; it can happen.

Lenny how much were you charged for the first spruce up and the engraving?

I have a Project II that I'm considering having overhauled. Its needs some TLC after ten years plus of hard graft and the loss of a mm or so of steel on the edge. It doesn't have to have the work done, but it would be nice. If it works out not too much I'll have the work done. If not I'll just buy a new one to admire. Either way the knife is still good value.

Here is a story for all.
A friend of mine, David, used to service Dunhill lighters; the gold, expensive, smart ones. A gentleman used to bring in his Dunhill every year in December saying it was not working at its best - under guarentee of course. Every year David would service it and find little if anything wrong with it. The odd part was changed due to normal wear and tear. All work was garenteed for twelve months. Finally, David had had enough and on the sixth or seventh year charged the gent for the service. Now the gent rebuked David's boss over the costs. My friend stuck to his guns to the point where he was almost sacked. The gent was made to cough up. After Christmas, the MD walked into the workshop and shook David by the hand. It transpired that the gent was the MD's father and once owner of the whole company. Every year, over the Christmas turky, the father would remark that he found it remarkable that his son ever made a living
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and used the lighter as his example.

Good customer service is one thing, additional good will another. At some point enough's enough.

A quality user item may be for life, but if its mechanical there will be service costs. These may be on the third year or twentieth. When, is more often than not just luck. Murphy's law says that the worst service bills come when you are most broke
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I'm sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with those of you who would jump to a decision without having both sides of the story. It's one thing to quietly and privately form an opinion based on what we read in an open forum such as this, but quite another to pass judgement so vindictively without having all the facts. My opinion of CRK knives remains unchanged as like most of you, I don't know both sides of the story.

I decided to purchase my first Sebenza (I now own 4 plus 1 Umfaan) only after researching day and night until I was thoroughly convinced that CRK knives were the best available for the price...period!

I didn't even consider the warranty in making my decision! I considered it icing on the cake. After reading hundreds of testimonies from satisfied owners, many of whom have used and carried their knives on a daily basis for several years, I knew that I could not go wrong in purchasing a Sebenza.

My Sebenza is my constant companion, one that I know that I can count on in a multitude of situations. I've never regretted spending the money, despite the fact that I would never have imagined spending that much for a knife. Sure, $300.00 is a lot of money, especially considering the fact that there are a ton of knives on the market that will do everything that the Sebenza will for less than half that amount, however, after living with my Sebenza day and night, I trust that it will perform flawlessly.

Quite frankly, I would jump on Mr. Reeve's proposal; $100.00 seems like a reasonable sum in light of the work that will be performed. Would you pay $100.00 to have your 3 year old Sebenza look brand new?

I would.

[This message has been edited by Forrest (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
Im guess I don't understand what guaranteed for life means?
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Rick Gray - Left Handers Unite
 
My thoughts
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When I used a pipe for leverage and broke a Craftsman socket trying to take off lug nut's I got a lug wrench and finished changing my tire. Later I didn't ask Sears for a replacement. If I hadn't broken that socket but used it day in and day out till it was worn smooth I again wouldn't expect a replacement. Maybe I'm just a fool.
If my Sebenza should ever fail I believe I'll know why based on everything I've read prior to this post and if I don't then it WILL be a CRK Warranty concern.
Who's seen, handled, designed, made and knows the most about the Sebenza's on this thread?
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Jerry

[This message has been edited by YAKE (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
"Chris Reeve – Cutler
Guarantee

This knife is guaranteed for life. It is designed for a specific purpose. Should this knife fail after purchase by original user, due to faulty workmanship or materials, such defects will be made good free of cost. The right is reserved to make good such defects either by repair or replacement.

This guarantee does not cover natural materials, incorrect applications, neglect or abuse. Any modifications that are made to the knife after it has left our workshop will void this guarantee.

This knife will be your most trustworthy companion, helper, defender. Look after it and it will look after you."

--------------------------------------------

I agree that the guaranteed for life preface is a bit magnanimous, however, If one takes the time to read further to the part about faulty workmanship or materials, the warranty becomes quite clear.

The part that states: "Should this knife fail after purchase by original user, due to faulty workmanship or materials, such defects will be made good free of cost." pretty much sums it up as does the following bit that reads "This guarantee does not cover natural materials, incorrect applications, neglect or abuse. ", hence the much discussed subject of flicking the knife.


[This message has been edited by Forrest (edited 01-11-2001).]
 
I like my Sebenza a great deal. On the higher side of things for a production knife, but I have no complaints, I carry it every day.

Was the $100 charged fair? That is only for CRK and future customers who read this thread, and, of course, Lenny, to decide.

Imagine though, a thread from Lenny which said "I sent my knife back and it was repaired quickly by Chris at no charge." Lenny then would have gone on about what a fantastic company CRK was / is, and we all would have said YES I LOVE THEM TOO!!! New comers to the site would have thought WOW! CRK would have been out $100.

Just something to think about.
 
It is apparently very difficult to mill titanium, even with cdc machines; combine this with all the other extraneous prices that running a business can incur,(materials, payroll, postage, taxes, etc...) and the $100 repair price tag seems very reasonable.

Additionally, there are other knives manufactured in a near custom manner, priced similarly, that have no warranty accompanying them. Mr. Reeve's reputation is firmly established as he makes a fine product...subsequently, he has a rabid following; however, despite his love of knife making, and most probably in lieu of his most noble intentions, he is, after all, in business. You go into business to make money.

I own my own business. I have a $100 minimum on all service rendered. Give the man a break.
 
To interject:

As a recent Small Sebenza buyer and proud owner, I think this premature wear could be avoided altogether if the blade tang were ground concave vs. flat. If you've ever seen the blade tang on an old BM Sentinel, you know what I mean. There's really nowhere for the ti locking bar to go.

Just my .01. Great discussion!

Professor.
 
Firebat your disagreement is noted, however, you may have missed the point.

I'm not even going to try and speak for CRK. I don't need to and they wouldn't want me to. They are perfectly capable of doing that for themselves, if they so choose.

It's one thing to be interested and curious about the circumstances here but for everyone to demand an explanation from them goes beyond reason.

We have nothing to do with this case, (merely owning a CRK is not eonugh qualification here, folks). They have nothing to answer for. Not to us, only to Lenny and, apparantly he is now satisfied.

No offense, but, to assume that everyone who owns a Sebenza (or any product for that matter), is involved in the purchase or business dealings of every other person who buys one of those products is absurd and your analogy of the Ford/Firestone situation to this one is ludicrous. There is neither similarity nor equivalence to these cases.

It's obvious that a defect, discovered by a manufacturer in the course of engineering and trend analysis of a product, that presents a safety hazard must be reported and publicized to prevent injury or death to the general public. Failing to do that, they would, at the very least, face huge civil liabilities and, probably, criminal prosecution. Rightly so.

This case, however bears no resemblance to that type of situation and to compare the two is almost irresponsible, as it implies nefarious behavior on the part of CRK. That hasn't even come close to being established here, (even though there seem to be some who are ready, if not eager, to jump to that conclusion.)

Regardless of whether it escapes you or not, the hard fact is that this incident DOES only affect Lenny and CRK. None of us can draw any conclusions from what we have read here, other than CRK's guarantee is not an unconditional one. They never said it was.

In light of that, it stands to reason that there will be some cases of wear or damage that will not be covered and those cases will be determined as the situation dictates.

If that is enough to discourage you or anyone else from paying $345.00 and up for one of these products, so be it but to claim that we all have to be involved in the determination of each of these cases goes beyond reason.

When you buy one of these, or any other product from any company, you are not entering into a litetime commitment to that company, nor are they entering into one with you. It's not like you're getting married to them.

I stand by the statement: "Untill it happens to you, you don't have a problem." Some problems can't be avoided and some problems never will happen to you. Why worry about it if it never happens.

The fact is, that, in the real world, each situation is unique unto itself. To assume that the same thing we saw reported here will happen to you or any other Sebenza owner, without knowing the true facts, is wrong.

One can either go through life waiting for that meteorite to land on one's head or one can look up at night and enjoy the show.
Knowing that the possibility exists for the unlikely catastrophic event shouldn't keep one from going out side but that's not up to me where thee is concerned.

As for the discussion of all of this amongst ourselves, hey, I have never said (and never would say) that we shouldn't do that. We all have opinions and views that we want express or we wouldn't be here. Everyone recognizes that.

Those of you who have said that we should wait for them to get back so thay can explain themselves shouldn't expect too much either. We can talk about this 'til the cows come home but we don't have a right to demand that they respond or explain anything to anyone. I wouldn't be a bit surprized if Chris and Anne decide that enough has been said about this already.


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Dennis Wright
Wright Knife & Sporting Goods
La Mesa, CA
1-800-400-1980
wrightknife@ixpres.com
("Have a knife day!")
 
Let us clear up some "fuzzy math" before the inauguration.

Lenny has confirmed that the replacement part for his Sebenza included engraving, normally a charge of $25.00. If we subtract that amount from the repair cost we have a charge of $75.00 to replace the handle slab with the lock bar, a not unreasonable cost considering the labor involved. With the Large Sebenza now list priced at $345.00 that means the repair cost was >22% of replacement cost, not the 33% commonly quoted in this thread.

Another good reason to avoid rushing to judgement, especially when you are dealing with another person’s hard earned reputation.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
I do not own a Sebenza, therefore, I can't comment directly on the quality of the knife or how the lock should wear. I would like to make a couple comments about this topic. I do own a Microtech LCC D/A. Since I bought it in early December, I have opened it many times manually and with the auto release. Using the auto release to open the knife is equivalent to flicking the blade open with a lot of force. Microtech does not warn against flicking the blade open on their D/A's or the M/A's. I place Microtech in the same category as CR knives for QC. If anything, CR Knives has a better reputation for quality and toughness. So why is it that CR knives warns against flicking when Microtech doesn't. This brings me to the second observation. Is this wear to the lock on the Sebenza prematurely brought on by the difference in the hardness between the Rc 60-62 BG42 blade and the lower Rc range of the titanium lock. BTW, the lock on my LCC is as tight as the day I got it and the liner has moved any further to the right.
 
Leatherman only gives a 25 year guarantee!!! But have refused payment for abuse that I have offered to pay for!!! (Found one in the bilge after close to 11 months. Salt water had had it's way with the stainless. Leatherman not only cleaned it up for no charge, but they up-dated the wire cutters and three different screwdrivers... for no charge!!)

I am a builder. I guarantee my work. If I build you Honduran Mahogany bookshelves and they fail because you put too many books on them: I didn't do my job. CRK also claims to build "the best". We should be able to use our knives without fear of failure... just like a Leatherman. (Or a well designed set of book shelves.) My point is that you can't make something I build "fail" by using it: I over design. I had been lead to believe that CRK did the same....

Dennis, I have great respect for you, but you are buying the party line on this one. Want to buy back the decorated Small Sebenza you sold me, as an act of faith in CRK?? I'll pack it up tomorrow... CRK has not only let down their customers by not giving us a clear answer, but they have also let down their dealers by not dealing with this in a timely manner. We all deserve better then "Sorry, we're off to sell more "Guaranteed for Life" knives..."

Michael£

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He who has smelt the smoke is never free again...
 
We will be away in New Orleans until Tuesday, January 16 and no one will monitor the forums during that time
Well?

I have 4 Sebenzas and 4 of your fixed blades. Please answer the concerns and questions posted here!

Michael
Ã¥

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He who has smelt the smoke is never free again...
 
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