Sebenza Overrated?

[somber]

Probably not because the standards indicate it has to hold that in 5 positions through temperature change as well.

But you're more then welcome to think a Seiko Monster is comparable to a Rolex. Heck you can't even manually wind that if I'm recalling the model correctly.

It's all about marketing, same with the Sebenza. Sure Rolex is COSC certified, but companies like Audemars Piguet, A. Lange & Sohne, Bremont, Blancpain, Jaeger-LeCouture, Franck Mueller, IWC, Thomas Prescher, or (gasp) Seiko do more than Rolex has EVER accomplished (other than having a top-notch marketing team).

Rolex/CRK isn't the end all be all, but spend your money how you want, it's your money. Lording it over people as being better than theirs is really the issue.

 

[twid]

Quote from Jesse B. from another thread...
"The Sebenza is a really good, really solid, simple, well-designed knife. But it's not a Hattori Hanzo. "
I'de put that in my sig if I were a paying member.

I like Sebenzas. I wasn't really thrilled with my first large 21 but the small Insingo is one of my favorite everyday carry knives. All the talk of Sebenzas being the smoothest knife and needing no break in is a bunch of crap though. If they're so perfect why does everyone in the CRK forum say to take them apart and clean/lube new from the box? Tight tolerances and super high QC should mean that no funk is left inside the knife to be cleaned and it should function the way it was designed right out of the box.

I think a lot of the overrating comes from people that have never even seen a Sebenza in person. Same with the way people talk about Strider knives weather good or bad and same for the people that recommened the XM-18 over everything knowing damn well they've never held either of the three I mentioned in their life. I see this on automotive forums all the time. Someone with rave about an aftermarket part how it's the best and #1 then go on to say "I'll be getting mine next week" without having any experience with it other than someone elses review. Eventually everyone starts jumping on the bandwagon talking about something that fewer really have experience with.

 

[whitty]

I just read through all of this thread. I now know why I posted at the top of page 2 that I have stayed out of these sebenza threads. If you are pro Sebenza and want to defend your knife to the end, that is great, but this is not the post to do it in. The OP wants to hear from the minority that have owned one, did not like it, and why they did not like it. If he wants to know how great they are he can check the other 10,000 discussions about it.

I will say that Sal chiming in to back the manufacturing skills it takes to make the product was pretty damn impressive to me. I actually took mine off the shelf to take a second look at it.

I will reinforce that if you know that you are not going to be satisfied until you have owned one yourself, then get it and get it out of the way. If you love it and it is the end all be all, you have saved yourself money. If you hate it or it is not the knife for you, you can probably sell it for what you have in it. For as long as mine has sat with little attention, I still use it as my measuring stick to my new purchases. Although I do not carry it, I could never get rid of it.

Whitty

 

[giant1]

The only logical answer is that only you can decide what a Sebenza is worth. Everyone else has their own opinion. No winners or losers, just people with choices

As for me........ I prefer to use a Sebenza over any other folder I own from a variety of makers.

Sebenza RULES!!!!!!!!

 

[redpoint]

It's one of those things in life ... you don't need a Sebenza to cut something or a Rolex to tell time ... or a BMW to drive to work in. When you look at a Sebenza you think it's pretty ordinary, until you look a little closer and see the extraordinary fit and finish, attention to detail ... ergonomics. It's a highly evolved design. Is it worth $400 - the people who own them seem to think so. You can certainly buy a knife with the same materials for much less, but its tolerances and attention to detail may not compare. You can also buy a knife that's tougher and has more wow factor. When you embark on finding the best [whatever your criteria may be], you'll almost always pay dearly for it.

 

[giant1]

It's one of those things in life ... you don't need a Sebenza to cut something or a Rolex to tell time ... or a BMW to drive to work in. When you look at a Sebenza you think it's pretty ordinary, until you look a little closer and see the extraordinary fit and finish, attention to detail ... ergonomics. It's a highly evolved design. Is it worth $400 - the people who own them seem to think so. You can certainly buy a knife with the same materials for much less, but its tolerances and attention to detail may not compare. You can also buy a knife that's tougher and has more wow factor. When you embark on finding the best [whatever your criteria may be], you'll almost always pay dearly for it.

You need to get one with wood inlays, much more classy

 

[KennyB]

Since you're mentioning +/- .0005" and putting a bit of weight on the argument that "it can't be much better", here's a quote from Sal.



In other words, +/- .0005" is not Benchmade/Spyderco's tolerances, that's CRK's tolerances. Who knows what the tolerances on Benchmade/Spyderco knives are.


EDIT: Just noticed that the quote was posted a few posts up. That's what I get for not reading the whole thread before posting.

Heh, yeah, the thread has grown fast, there's three pages between this

Anyway, I don't know about Kershaw, but I know Benchmade and Spyderco both use .0005"

http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/index.asp

I can't find the specifics of Spyderco's machining tolerances nor an official source, but this post ( also from Sal Glesser ) indicates that they grind their edges to .0005, but that doesn't necessarily mean they machine all their parts to those tolerances... I'd like to see some verifiable proof one way or the other http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8698384&postcount=229

I wouldn't be surprised if Kershaw and Spyderco machined their parts to .0005" along with Benchmade and CRK because .0005" is kind of the defacto machining tolerance when it comes to CNC stuff these days. I believe the only people playing with anything tighter are NASA or other aerospace researchers. Either way, you have right there from the source itself that BM is using the same tolerances as CRK.

I'm not a manufacturer, but I worked as a machinist for a few years, and I understand this quote very well. "That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?"

Simply put, without several thousands of dollars invested in various pieces of measuring equipment, and the knowledge to use them properly, no one can possible appreciate let alone perceive the differences in tolerances---and from what I've just been able to dig up, there are no differences if Sebenzas also have .0005".

It's been a few years since I did that kind of work so I don't really remember all the tools, but between a surface plate ( usually granite in this circumstance so it doesn't corrode ), a vertical scale and an inch indicator, none of us are going to see a lick of difference in craftsmanship. Now, if someone were to spend the $10-15k to acquire this tools and started measuring their knives I'd start listening to the talk about "tolerances" but at the point we stand most people talking about them cannot even measure them, and aren't aware that the grand majority of manufacturer's using CNC machining have the same tight tolerances.

So aside from tolerances, as we've just put the proverbial nail in the coffin thanks to Sal's information on CRK's machining tolerances, let's talk about other areas of quality where the Sebenza outshines other manufacturer's.

I'd like to hear more about what's involved in the heat treatment of these knives. Perhaps that's where this fabled leap in quality lies?

Anyway, I just want to cut right through the hype. I'm not paying for a brand name? Okay, then... So what am I paying for?

 

[giant1]

Heh, yeah, the thread has grown fast, there's three pages between this

Anyway, I don't know about Kershaw, but I know Benchmade and Spyderco both use .0005"

http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/index.asp

I can't find the specifics of Spyderco's machining tolerances nor an official source, but this post ( also from Sal Glesser ) indicates that they grind their edges to .0005, but that doesn't necessarily mean they machine all their parts to those tolerances... I'd like to see some verifiable proof one way or the other http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8698384&postcount=229

I wouldn't be surprised if Kershaw and Spyderco machined their parts to .0005" along with Benchmade and CRK because .0005" is kind of the defacto machining tolerance when it comes to CNC stuff these days. I believe the only people playing with anything tighter are NASA or other aerospace researchers. Either way, you have right there from the source itself that BM is using the same tolerances as CRK.

I'm not a manufacturer, but I worked as a machinist for a few years, and I understand this quote very well. "That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?"

Simply put, without several thousands of dollars invested in various pieces of measuring equipment, and the knowledge to use them properly, no one can possible appreciate let alone perceive the differences in tolerances---and from what I've just been able to dig up, there are no differences if Sebenzas also have .0005".

It's been a few years since I did that kind of work so I don't really remember all the tools, but between a surface plate ( usually granite in this circumstance so it doesn't corrode ), a vertical scale and an inch indicator, none of us are going to see a lick of difference in craftsmanship. Now, if someone were to spend the $10-15k to acquire this tools and started measuring their knives I'd start listening to the talk about "tolerances" but at the point we stand most people talking about them cannot even measure them, and aren't aware that the grand majority of manufacturer's using CNC machining have the same tight tolerances.

So aside from tolerances, as we've just put the proverbial nail in the coffin thanks to Sal's information on CRK's machining tolerances, let's talk about other areas of quality where the Sebenza outshines other manufacturer's.

I'd like to hear more about what's involved in the heat treatment of these knives. Perhaps that's where this fabled leap in quality lies?

Anyway, I just want to cut right through the hype. I'm not paying for a brand name? Okay, then... So what am I paying for?

Why do you need to be convinced???

Just stick to cheap knives and enjoy them...........

 

[KennyB]

Why do you need to be convinced???

Just stick to cheap knives and enjoy them...........

Why is it such a problem that I need to be convinced?

 

[giant1]

Why is it such a problem that I need to be convinced?

Every time this question comes up, the guys that don't want to spend a lot of money on knives want to prove to the world how a $50 knife is always going to be as good as an expensive one.

9 times out of 10 that is a load of bull.

Cheap is cheap for a reason. You just have to accept it. I have

 

[Asura]

I'm another who thinks they're over-rated. Sure, they're excellent knives, but not worth the superlatives they seem to generate.

My biggest bugbear is that hole in the scale... Not the lanyard hole, the other one. I understand that it's there because of the machining process. But surely an exceptional design that exudes classic simplicity shouldn't have anything superfluous just because it makes the manufacturiing process simpler or more cost effective?

 

[Ken44]

If you are pro Sebenza and want to defend your knife to the end, that is great, but this is not the post to do it in.

The OP wants to hear from the minority that have owned one, did not like it, and why they did not like it. If he wants to know how great they are he can check the other 10,000 discussions about it.

So you only want this to be a bashing thread for sebenzas. That will never happen,lol.

This IS the post to do it in for me, and I'll say what I want.....Sebenza Rule's!!!!!

All this talk of them being over priced is crazy talk to me. I find the Sebenza to be the best bang for the buck of any folder made. You get what you pay for, and in this case more. Have another arriving today:thumbup:

 

[KennyB]

Every time this question comes up, the guys that don't want to spend a lot of money on knives want to prove to the world how a $50 knife is always going to be as good as an expensive one.

9 times out of 10 that is a load of bull.

Cheap is cheap for a reason. You just have to accept it. I have

Well, you've mistaken me for having some kind of agenda and asking rhetorical questions trying to prove a point. I'm not pointing out differences like tolerances trying to prove that some lower cost knife is just as good, I'm just trying to narrow down what exactly makes the price for CRK so high in regards to other manufacturer's. Sal partially answered that for me in his response to another person in the post I quoted, but in regards to the actual technical data provided there was the tolerances, but what about the mention of heat treating and other processes that CRK does which other companies apparently don't?

Not having the opportunity to go out and handle a Sebenza, and even if I had the opportunity not having the kinds of tools to measure the differences, what kind of information is out there for me to go, "Oh, okay, this is why they cost so much." Am I just supposed to take people's word for it that there's some kind of magic that CRK does that no other knife company can compete with? All I want to know is what are the real differences, out of general consumer interest.

 

[kya]

Heh, yeah, the thread has grown fast, there's three pages between this

Anyway, I don't know about Kershaw, but I know Benchmade and Spyderco both use .0005"

http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/index.asp

I can't find the specifics of Spyderco's machining tolerances nor an official source, but this post ( also from Sal Glesser ) indicates that they grind their edges to .0005, but that doesn't necessarily mean they machine all their parts to those tolerances... I'd like to see some verifiable proof one way or the other http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8698384&postcount=229

I wouldn't be surprised if Kershaw and Spyderco machined their parts to .0005" along with Benchmade and CRK because .0005" is kind of the defacto machining tolerance when it comes to CNC stuff these days. I believe the only people playing with anything tighter are NASA or other aerospace researchers. Either way, you have right there from the source itself that BM is using the same tolerances as CRK.

I'm not a manufacturer, but I worked as a machinist for a few years, and I understand this quote very well. "That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?"

Simply put, without several thousands of dollars invested in various pieces of measuring equipment, and the knowledge to use them properly, no one can possible appreciate let alone perceive the differences in tolerances---and from what I've just been able to dig up, there are no differences if Sebenzas also have .0005".

It's been a few years since I did that kind of work so I don't really remember all the tools, but between a surface plate ( usually granite in this circumstance so it doesn't corrode ), a vertical scale and an inch indicator, none of us are going to see a lick of difference in craftsmanship. Now, if someone were to spend the $10-15k to acquire this tools and started measuring their knives I'd start listening to the talk about "tolerances" but at the point we stand most people talking about them cannot even measure them, and aren't aware that the grand majority of manufacturer's using CNC machining have the same tight tolerances.

So aside from tolerances, as we've just put the proverbial nail in the coffin thanks to Sal's information on CRK's machining tolerances, let's talk about other areas of quality where the Sebenza outshines other manufacturer's.

I'd like to hear more about what's involved in the heat treatment of these knives. Perhaps that's where this fabled leap in quality lies?

Anyway, I just want to cut right through the hype. I'm not paying for a brand name? Okay, then... So what am I paying for?

Just to clarify: The 0.0005" tolerances between BM, Spyderco, and CRK are referring to different things.

BM's page says its their cutting of parts.

Spyderco's is their edge thickness on their R&D testing mules. It can't be said whether or not those tolerances apply to actual production knives. Though I'm inclined to say it does not apply to production knives since I have observed other parts of Sal's statement to be false. Judging from the Spyderco's I've owned, the edge angles were not +/- 1 degree (on same model knives). I also can't imagine them using a goniometer to measure the angle of every hand sharpened knife coming off the production line. I could be wrong, they could be using the same tolerances as their testing mules, but it is not certain from those statements Sal made.

CRK's is their surface grinding tolerances. From the context of Sal's post on the topic, it can be inferred that Spyderco's surface grinding tolerances are not 0.0005".


There is no need for you to "cut right through the hype" as you are not paying for anything since you are not the target market for CRK. CRKs are simply not what you are looking for, and that is fine. I just don't understand how you can spread your opinions on something in which you have never seen, have never touched, and seemingly have no desire to own. I could understand that if someone was trying to force CRKs down YOUR throat, but they're not.

 

[artmichalek]

CRK's is their surface grinding tolerances. From the context of Sal's post on the topic, it can be inferred that Spyderco's surface grinding tolerances are not 0.0005".

First of all, inference is a poor substitute for going out and measuring one. Secondly, the whole rationale behind the frame lock design is that most of the surfaces are non-mating. The parts that do touch are meant to have far more than 0.0005" of compliance. This is mostly an issue of wear. If these tight tolerances were actually needed for proper function, the average lifespan for a user knife would be about two years. I think Kenny's question remains valid. If you were handed two otherwise identical knives that were ground to 0.001" and 0.0005" tolerances, would you know which to pay $100 for and which to pay $400 for?

 

[cziv]

So you only want this to be a bashing thread for sebenzas. That will never happen,lol.

This IS the post to do it in for me, and I'll say what I want.....Sebenza Rule's!!!!!

All this talk of them being over priced is crazy talk to me. I find the Sebenza to be the best bang for the buck of any folder made. You get what you pay for, and in this case more. Have another arriving today:thumbup:

Pics of today's newspaper under unboxing pics or it's BS & ain't happening!

 

[Ken44]

Pics of today's newspaper under unboxing pics or it's BS & ain't happening!

I hope your kidding.
But just in case your not... If you don't believe me I could care less. If you want to call Neil at TNK and see if Kenny(me)in GA has a silver double lug large 21 that will arrive today feel free to do so.

I also have a CF BG42 Military and a Sage1 that should be here today as well.

 

[flipe8]

flipe8 and Incahiker: Which knives do you have with CPM154 that you are comparing to S30V

Sorry FlaMtnBkr, I was thinking 154CM. Don't have any experience with CPM154

 

[cziv]

I hope your kidding.
But just in case your not... If you don't believe me I could care less. If you want to call Neil at TNK and see if Kenny(me)in GA has a silver double lug large 21 that will arrive today feel free to do so.

I also have a CF BG42 Military and a Sage1 that should be here today as well.

Just kidding around Ken44, I believe you. You missed the smiley face.

 

[kya]

First of all, inference is a poor substitute for going out and measuring one. Secondly, the whole rationale behind the frame lock design is that most of the surfaces are non-mating. The parts that do touch are meant to have far more than 0.0005" of compliance. This is mostly an issue of wear. If these tight tolerances were actually needed for proper function, the average lifespan for a user knife would be about two years. I think Kenny's question remains valid. If you were handed two otherwise identical knives that were ground to 0.001" and 0.0005" tolerances, would you know which to pay $100 for and which to pay $400 for?

First of all, I'll make it clear that I'm not supporting either side of this thread's argument as I simply don't care who "wins". Secondly, did you even read Sal's post?