Sebenza Overrated?

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Blah.. Blah.. Blah.... :D. To me, in the end, if the sebenzas were over rated and over priced then Mr. Reeve's company would go out of business..... or their knives would take a hit in their prices and be adjusted more like benchmades and spydercos to keep their doors open. But this is not the case. Just hold one in your hand, and if you think it is over rated.. then for you by all means it is true for you. The other person who thinks its the best knife ever developed is also correct. Each person have their own standards... you have to make that decision yourself.
 
kya said:
First of all, I'll make it clear that I'm not supporting either side of this thread's argument as I simply don't care who "wins". Secondly, did you even read Sal's post?
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I don't think Sal posted, but was quoted from another resource. I'm not going to go back and read every post but the search function doesn't turn his name up in this thread. :)
 
KennyB said:
I'm not paying for a brand name? Okay, then... So what am I paying for?
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Yes. Part of what you're paying for IS a brand name. Just like part of what you pay for when you buy a Randall or a Rolex or a BMW is a brand name. What's wrong with that? Do you not believe that some manufacturers have EARNED the right to charge more because they've developed a reputation for producing superlative products? Or are you just unwilling to pay what other people are willing to pay in order to own and enjoy their products? :confused:

PS: I could be way off base here, but my guess is that blade hardness doesn't make the top 10 list of reasons most people decide whether or not to buy a Sebenza. ;)

.
 
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Ken44 said:
I hope your kidding.
But just in case your not... If you don't believe me I could care less. If you want to call Neil at TNK and see if Kenny(me)in GA has a silver double lug large 21 that will arrive today feel free to do so.

I also have a CF BG42 Military and a Sage1 that should be here today as well.
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I think a separate comparison thread is in order between the two Spydercos and the Sebenza. :D All 3 top tier knives I'm sure.
 
It wasn't for me. I tried the regular,(micarta) classic,(website) and small regular, and none of them did anything for me. I guess it's just one mans trash is another mans treasure.
 
I was lucky enough to get my small sebenza for $250 and I almost feel bad for getting such a good deal. It is probably my favorite knife and I feel it could handle any task I threw at it!
 
Is the Sebenza overrated? I think overrated may be a relative term, i.e. what's the rating criteria? To me the Sebenza has been around for about 20 years IIRC and, to me again, it has been the exemplar for excellence in a production knife.

Blade magazine seems to think that CRK makes the best production knives and has given them awards to that effect in recent years. Who is competition and how do the pundits rate the competition relative to the Sebenza?

Ask yourself if you think that people will still be buying the current competition to the Sebenza in a few years or will they have been discontinued for the "latest and greatest".

Some think that the production XM-18 or the production Striders are rated equal to or surpass the Sebenza in quality. I hope that they are better for the sake of their owners and proponents. I'll take the Sebbie.
 
No doubt they are fine knives for sure. I just had a problem with it costing 400 and if
I'd paid less than 300 I would have been happy. Which makes me wonder now that I have 5 or 600 to spend on a new knife, if anything will do it for me at that price? I've been looking and it's a whole lot harder decision to make, buying a 200 or less dollar piece or a 500 plus!
 
I finally had a chance to play with several Sebenzas at a dealership in Eastern PA. I own a good number of Benchmades, all three of the Benchmade-made Bradleys, I have had several Spydercos, and my newest favorite is my Hogue EX-01, which I think redefines the production knife category, especially at any price level below the Sebenza's.

About ten seconds after playing with the first Sebenza, I wanted one. Badly. Really badly. The smaller version. But yes, the price is high. However the knife exudes quality, precision, and the maker's pride, in ways that few other items do.

For me, however, the problem is the tip-up carry, which I don't like after getting sliced by other tip-up knives in the past. So I probably won't get a Sebenza.

Note that I said "probably."
 
A lot of space is wasted by people commenting on the topic, rather than commenting on the knife. The bottom line is that the knife is worth what people are willing to spend on it. Me, I'd rather have a nice gun!
 
I don't think I'd want a plain handled one, but I've got to admit those wood insert Sebenzas (large) do look very sweet and I am considering it along with a lot of other options, as a higher end knife I may be purchasing in the near future.
 
KennyB said:
Heh, yeah, the thread has grown fast

SNIP

Anyway, I just want to cut right through the hype. I'm not paying for a brand name? Okay, then... So what am I paying for?
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Ok, there's a lot of strong emotions floating around in here, so let me try to answer this as dispassionately as possible. You seem like you are legitimately curious as to what makes Sebenzas stand apart.

I own two Sebenzas and a Mnandi, along with a pile of other desirable folders like Hinderers, Case/Bose colabs and high end Spydercos and BMs. I count the Sebenzas among my favourites and certainly my most carried.

There has been a lot of mention of tolerances. In my experience, the Sebenza has some of the tightest tolerances out there. If you ever hold a Case/Bose collaboration, you can tell that it is very finely crafted but I own 5 and each one has some small, perhaps trifling flaw I can point out. This is not true of my Sebenzas, I can't find any flaws or defects in either of them. To be fair though, they are far simpler knives than the Bose collabs, but it seems worth mentioning.

Also, the Sebenza feels reassuringly solid but not completely overbuilt, the way my XM-18 does. I love my XM, but in my opinion, (sacrilege!) it is a poor choice for most every day cutting tasks. The grind is optimized toward brute strength, not cutting, and the whole package is very thick and heavy to be carrying in a regular pant pocket. If I still worked in law enforcement, I might have a different opinion, but as a regular joe, it's a bit too much. The Sebenza is very robust, but not over done in its construction. There's a particular click it makes when the lockbar engages that reinforces this feeling for me in particular. If you waste..er, spend as much time as I do looking at the exchange, you will no doubt see Sebenzas that are 10-15 years old that pop up here and there and they all look to be in fine shape. I'm confident my CRKs will be part of my bequest to my heirs and I'm not even out of my 20's yet.

Additionally, the design is dead simple, which I really admire. You can tear down the whole thing with a single Allen key (which is thoughtfully included in the package) and put it back together in a few simple steps. Back to the Hinderer, it, along with Strider, Lionsteel and probably others, requires a specialized, proprietary and frequently very expensive tool to unscrew the pivot or otherwise disassemble the knife. That's fine, and I understand why it is the case. However, it is one more thing to lose and adds an extra dimension of complexity to something that can be far simpler, as demonstrated by the Sebenza. I also like the fact that it uses standoffs and not a backspacer so you can quickly and easily give it a rinse and clear any debris caught inside of it.

Finally, if you carry one, you start to notice some clever details about the Sebenza that make you feel like it is a quality tool. Such as the way the spine of the blade is perfectly radiused or the careful and precise way the jimping is executed. It's all in the details.

Ultimately, the question of whether the Sebenza is worth the price is a very personal one. Many people here seem to be arguing very passionately one way or the other. I can appreciate arguments from both sides. For a long time, I resisted the whole idea of getting one until one day when I graduated from my program and decided I needed an opulent and somewhat timeless present for myself. I'm very glad I did and one CRK quickly begot another and another and another still. It's a slippery slope, so tread carefully if you decide to pick one up! :p Good luck with whatever you choose.
 
Just an FYI, the Lionsteel SR-1 does not require a special tool to adjust the pivot or any other screw. It has a hex head in the center and can also use the special spanner wrench that comes with it. It does require the tool to remove the pocket clip but the knife can be adjusted with common tools.

I think many people have a favorite knife and they are going to use all the things they like about it to argue why it's the best. I personally would not trade my LE Benchmade Rift with M4 steel for any Sebenza out there. And I was able to buy 3 of them for the price of a large Micarta Sebenza. I also can not find any defects or flaws with my knife. Sure, the Sebenza probably holds tighter tolerances, but I can't see that with my eyes and as far as I can tell they are both near perfect. The Benchmade has what I consider a better lock and better blade steel. I also like G10 better than metal handles like the titanium Sebenza. The Benchmade has 3D sculpting to the handles and has a unique blade shape which makes it stand out from most other knives as far as looks are concerned. And just about anyone can make the same type of arguments for their favorite knife assuming it is a quality piece. That doesn't make any of them better than the others, just better for that person.
 
Also, the Sebenza feels reassuringly solid but not completely overbuilt, the way my XM-18 does. I love my XM, but in my opinion, (sacrilege!) it is a poor choice for most every day cutting tasks. The grind is optimized toward brute strength, not cutting, and the whole package is very thick and heavy to be carrying in a regular pant pocket. If I still worked in law enforcement, I might have a different opinion, but as a regular joe, it's a bit too much.
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Shame on you somniloquist. Send that non-cutting, overbuilt tank to me and I'll buy you another Sebenza! :D :p
 
I feel you get what you pay for when it comes to Chris's knives.
Hell, I just dropped $2300 on three of his knives, and it felt great.
Love me that D. Thomas damascus!!!

Brad
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
Just an FYI, the Lionsteel SR-1 does not require a special tool to adjust the pivot or any other screw. It has a hex head in the center and can also use the special spanner wrench that comes with it. It does require the tool to remove the pocket clip but the knife can be adjusted with common tools.
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Now that you mention it, I see what you mean. I stand corrected. However, I think many people would agree with me that requiring a special tool to service one's folder is an irritation. If I drop 500 bucks on an XM-18, I don't really feel like dropping another 65 for Rick's pivot tool. To each their own. The XM-18 is a very, very fine piece though and I'd probably be more willing to suffer some inconvenience to keep it serviced. YMMV.
 
KennyB said:
Heh, yeah, the thread has grown fast, there's three pages between this

Anyway, I don't know about Kershaw, but I know Benchmade and Spyderco both use .0005"

http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/index.asp

I can't find the specifics of Spyderco's machining tolerances nor an official source, but this post ( also from Sal Glesser ) indicates that they grind their edges to .0005, but that doesn't necessarily mean they machine all their parts to those tolerances... I'd like to see some verifiable proof one way or the other http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8698384&postcount=229

I wouldn't be surprised if Kershaw and Spyderco machined their parts to .0005" along with Benchmade and CRK because .0005" is kind of the defacto machining tolerance when it comes to CNC stuff these days. I believe the only people playing with anything tighter are NASA or other aerospace researchers. Either way, you have right there from the source itself that BM is using the same tolerances as CRK.

I'm not a manufacturer, but I worked as a machinist for a few years, and I understand this quote very well. "That's one sixth the thickness of a hair. Do you have the knowledsge and equipment to discover that tolerance?"

Simply put, without several thousands of dollars invested in various pieces of measuring equipment, and the knowledge to use them properly, no one can possible appreciate let alone perceive the differences in tolerances---and from what I've just been able to dig up, there are no differences if Sebenzas also have .0005".

It's been a few years since I did that kind of work so I don't really remember all the tools, but between a surface plate ( usually granite in this circumstance so it doesn't corrode ), a vertical scale and an inch indicator, none of us are going to see a lick of difference in craftsmanship. Now, if someone were to spend the $10-15k to acquire this tools and started measuring their knives I'd start listening to the talk about "tolerances" but at the point we stand most people talking about them cannot even measure them, and aren't aware that the grand majority of manufacturer's using CNC machining have the same tight tolerances.

So aside from tolerances, as we've just put the proverbial nail in the coffin thanks to Sal's information on CRK's machining tolerances, let's talk about other areas of quality where the Sebenza outshines other manufacturer's.

I'd like to hear more about what's involved in the heat treatment of these knives. Perhaps that's where this fabled leap in quality lies?

Anyway, I just want to cut right through the hype. I'm not paying for a brand name? Okay, then... So what am I paying for?
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Hi Kenny I cant answer all of your questions on CNC machines etc but here was a post on another forum by a member that knows more about CNC then me

"Just read the other post which was a quote by Sal regarding the tolerance. It is a .0005" tolerance on a surface grinder. A surface grinder is one of the most accurate machining tools, much more so then a CNC. Many of them have a resolution that can only realistically be achieved in a climate controlled facility, so no problem hitting within .0005 with that. There is a big difference between a surface grinder and a CNC machining center. Anyway Chris Reeve does have tight tolerances on his knives and they are well built for sure, I personally wouldn't pay $385-$400 for one however. I don't think I'd ever pay that much or a pocket knife. The cost to performance gain really isn't there. My Para-Military is flawless as much as I can tell, opens like it has bearings on the pivot and cuts really well, I can't see how spending $300 extra is going to make that much of a difference that I would like to spend the extra money."

Another aspect that one realise when watching the CRK DVD is the amount of hand work that goes into finalising the knife. CRK grinds the bevel by hand on a special made machine, the rounding on the spine, washers are fitted and sanded to fit precisely around the pivot bushing. The lock face is treated by one person.

There was a thread a long time ago that asked the question on how many people are empoyed by manufacturing companies. Kershaw and Benchamde employ the most as far as I can remember, close to 300 people. CRK 22 people.

For me the Sebenza is worth $400 if you can get it directly from CRK or secondary market....because we pay 653.766 USD including tax and vat. At $400 it is really not that more expensive then other hand made products where there are still errors that accor. The knives in this category are for me luxury items that I enjoy to use.

If you do not like it then you dont, no problem with that IMO. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
You stated your take on the appeal of the Sebenza far better than I could, somniloquist, that's for sure.:thumbup:
In many ways, I would compare the qualities that make a Sebenza such a great knife(IMO) to that of a decathlete. By that, I mean the Sebenza does a really good job of being very well-rounded, while not absolutely being the best at any one thing by most accounts. Of all the knives I've owned to this point, including knives from Strider, Rick Hinderer, Kevin Wilkins and Brad Southard, the Sebenza has done a better job(for me) at being a true "Every Day Carry" knife. It's the only knife I've owned that I've felt comfortable carrying in my formal uniform to my turnouts and everything in between.
I'm really enjoying and learning from this thread. Thanks guys:thumbup:
 
JML said:
I finally had a chance to play with several Sebenzas at a dealership in Eastern PA. I own a good number of Benchmades, all three of the Benchmade-made Bradleys, I have had several Spydercos, and my newest favorite is my Hogue EX-01, which I think redefines the production knife category, especially at any price level below the Sebenza's.

About ten seconds after playing with the first Sebenza, I wanted one. Badly. Really badly. The smaller version. But yes, the price is high. However the knife exudes quality, precision, and the maker's pride, in ways that few other items do.

For me, however, the problem is the tip-up carry, which I don't like after getting sliced by other tip-up knives in the past. So I probably won't get a Sebenza.

Note that I said "probably."
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haha. I wanted a Bradley forever. Finally got it because I was being smart by getting the better value over the Sebenza. Carried it everyday. One day I broke down and bought a Sebenza . Bradley has not been in my pocket since. Love the Alias, but ...
 
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