Sebenza Overrated?

[singularity35]

So a $300 plus knife with a blade steel that has AUS-8A edge retention is priced right?

 

[Ankerson]

So a $300 plus knife with a blade steel that has AUS-8A edge retention is priced right?

For some maybe, but I wouldn't buy one..... Ever.

For $100 or so maybe.

 

[marthinus]

Not sure what it is.

My thing is that S30V at 58 RC is like having AUS-8 edge retention wise, if he is running it that soft he would have been better off using 154CM or sticking with BG-42.

If his S30V was even at 60 RC I would be happy., noway would they get S30V to 62 RC in production blades.

We will see what he does with S35VN and how it performs.

But Ankerson.

You are not testing to dull.

I am not testing to dull.

I test to 20 LBS of down force on rope, once they hit that the test is over and believe me that is enough, 20 LBS of down force is really a lot of pressure doing it by hand. If you don't believe me take a folder and put the blade on a scale and push down until, it hits 18-20 LBS, then do it over and over again repeatably a hundred times. Then think about the fact that I am doing controlled slices at those weights and you will start to understand the work involved.

The CARTA would be the ultimate for testing to dull and the final ranking of the steels 1,2,3,4 ect.

Some steels like S30V, S90V and a few others will continue to cut for a very long time due to the composition of the steels.

However to do these tests till dull is hard and tiresome....but those are the tests I want unfortunately. Still greatly appreciate your contribution

As for the thread look at my signature

 

[Ankerson]

But Ankerson.

You are not testing to dull.



However to do these tests till dull is hard and tiresome....but those are the tests I want unfortunately. Still greatly appreciate your contribution

Not just talking about testing, I am talking about using them also.

Soft S30V will get butter knife dull very fast, just as fast as AUS-8A will, it's just too soft.

 

[RubiconSS]

It is fairly obvious that ALL hobbies share this attribute, the internal debate over which is better choclate or vanilla.
Camaro vs Mustang
Tubes vs solid state
Roller locks vs Gas operated
Rolex vs Omega
Sebenza vs almost everything else
Blondes vs Brunettes

To some degree it all is just a matter of personal preference.

 

[marthinus]

Not just talking about testing, I am talking about using them also.

Soft S30V will get butter knife dull very fast, just as fast as AUS-8A will, it's just too soft.

Then where does composition start playing a role?

 

[Ankerson]

Then where does composition start playing a role?

Around 59+ or so from what I have seen.

I have seen S30V blades at around 55 RC and are just horrible edge retention wise, 58 isn't that much better.

Once you get under 59.5 RC things really fall off very fast.

S30V is an interesting steel, it's very picky about HT and the tempering process and not the easiest steel to HT correctly on a production status.

The reason that they came up with CPM-154 was because S30V was so hard to HT properly for the Custom makers.

Once you get S30V around 60 RC and the HT and tempering process isn't right it will be very chippy.

CRUCIBLE CPM® S30V®
Issue #4
Carbon 1.45%
Chromium 14.00%
Vanadium 4.00%
Molybdenum 2.00%


If you look at the compostion of the steel above you see it has 4% Vanadium and 2% Molybdenum, those are the two hardest carbide formers, it's the tempering process that refines those materials into carbides. If it's not done correctly you lose both hardness and the carbides don't form correctly.

Also with only 1.45% Carbon it's tricky to get a high hardness like 60 RC and above, that's another problem.

If the carbides don't form correctly it will become chippy and or edge retention will be very low.


Now take a look at S35VN below.

Carbon 1.40%
Chromium 14.00%
Vanadium 3.00%
Molybdenum 2.00%
Niobium 0.50%

They lowered the Vananduim from 4% to 3% and kept Molybdenum at 2% and added .50% Niobium.

What this should do is make S35VN easier to HT and temper forming the carbides and it should be easier to work with and grind into knife blades and I think easier to get to 60-60.5 RC in production blades without the chipping issues.

Only time will tell as we start to see blades in this steel.

 

[Cynic2701]

It is fairly obvious that ALL hobbies share this attribute, the internal debate over which is better choclate or vanilla.
Camaro vs Mustang
Tubes vs solid state
Roller locks vs Gas operated
Rolex vs Omega
Sebenza vs almost everything else
Blondes vs Brunettes

To some degree it all is just a matter of personal preference.

Not to take this in a wildly different direction, but...

If we are talking about differences in the phenomenal appearance and perception of objects, then it is possible to determine a hierarchy of differentiation by degree: this is intersubjective verifiability--the very foundation of "science".

There is the potentiality for an infinitude of possibilities for anything that is perceived noumenally. Though a set group of Daseins may agree on a singularity of a noumenal appearance, that political agreement in no way excludes the potentiality for all other possible perceptions of that noumenal object.

 

[n2wilderness]

Not to take this in a wildly different direction, but...

If we are talking about differences in the phenomenal appearance and perception of objects, then it is possible to determine a hierarchy of differentiation by degree: this is intersubjective verifiability--the very foundation of "science".

There is the potentiality for an infinitude of possibilities for anything that is perceived noumenally. Though a set group of Daseins may agree on a singularity of a noumenal appearance, that political agreement in no way excludes the potentiality for all other possible perceptions of that noumenal object.

I think you stepped into the wrong classroom.

 

[RubiconSS]

Not to take this in a wildly different direction, but...

If we are talking about differences in the phenomenal appearance and perception of objects, then it is possible to determine a hierarchy of differentiation by degree: this is intersubjective verifiability--the very foundation of "science".

There is the potentiality for an infinitude of possibilities for anything that is perceived noumenally. Though a set group of Daseins may agree on a singularity of a noumenal appearance, that political agreement in no way excludes the potentiality for all other possible perceptions of that noumenal object.

In the realm of the empirical, I submit that this occupies the realm of the subjective rendering the arguments philosophical in their rooted nature when unfortunetly they are elevated in debate to aspects of fact when in fact they are opinion.

 

[singularity35]

Not to take this in a wildly different direction, but...

If we are talking about differences in the phenomenal appearance and perception of objects, then it is possible to determine a hierarchy of differentiation by degree: this is intersubjective verifiability--the very foundation of "science".

There is the potentiality for an infinitude of possibilities for anything that is perceived noumenally. Though a set group of Daseins may agree on a singularity of a noumenal appearance, that political agreement in no way excludes the potentiality for all other possible perceptions of that noumenal object.

Wow! Awesome revelation!

Does this mean that peanut butter is better with grape jelly or blackberry jam?

 

[Cynic2701]

In the realm of the empirical, I submit that this occupies the realm of the subjective rendering the arguments philosophical in their rooted nature when unfortunetly they are elevated in debate to aspects of fact when in fact they are opinion.

I'm not convinced that you can make that argument, but I want to stop waving intellectual phalli about--I mostly intended this as a joke.

If you want to see why I'm not convinced you can make that argument, I'd direct you to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and Heidegger's Being and Time.

 

[Cynic2701]

Wow! Awesome revelation!

Does this mean that peanut butter is better with grape jelly or blackberry jam?

It means that you can make that determination yourself, and anyone that argues against your noumenal perception is logically retarded.

Now, if you want to argue whether or not peanut butter has a higher specific gravity than grape jelly, that's not really something that you can argue--that is a phenomenal perception.

 

[RubiconSS]

I'm not convinced that you can make that argument, but I want to stop waving intellectual phalli about--I mostly intended this as a joke.

If you want to see why I'm not convinced you can make that argument, I'd direct you to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and Heidegger's Being and Time.

Familiar with both works, I too intended the exchange to be humorous. Enjoyable never the less.

 

[Tony8179]

Not to take this in a wildly different direction, but...

If we are talking about differences in the phenomenal appearance and perception of objects, then it is possible to determine a hierarchy of differentiation by degree: this is intersubjective verifiability--the very foundation of "science".

There is the potentiality for an infinitude of possibilities for anything that is perceived noumenally. Though a set group of Daseins may agree on a singularity of a noumenal appearance, that political agreement in no way excludes the potentiality for all other possible perceptions of that noumenal object.

I'm not convinced that you can make that argument, but I want to stop waving intellectual phalli about--I mostly intended this as a joke.

If you want to see why I'm not convinced you can make that argument, I'd direct you to Kant's Critique of Pure Reason and Heidegger's Being and Time.

It means that you can make that determination yourself, and anyone that argues against your noumenal perception is logically retarded.

Now, if you want to argue whether or not peanut butter has a higher specific gravity than grape jelly, that's not really something that you can argue--that is a phenomenal perception.

From someone who never gave philosophy any mind, can you tell me what you are talking about? You don't have to use big words with me though. I'm not all learned and such.

 

[Cynic2701]

From someone who never gave philosophy any mind, can you tell me what you are talking about? You don't have to use big words with me though. I'm not all learned and such.

Very basically, I'm talking about this: how is it possible, in the first place, for something to have a perceivable attribute that is perceived to be universally true. As an example, everything that has mass has gravity, or water boils at a specific temperature. Does the Sebenza's S30V have the same edge retention as AUS-8A?

On the other hand, how is it possible for something to have a perceivable attribute that is not universally true--is the Sebenza overrated?

 

[kawr]

So a $300 plus knife with a blade steel that has AUS-8A edge retention is priced right?

Depends on what you prefer. A corvette has twice the horsepower of something like a mercedes. I dont think that makes the mercedes overpriced. Its cheaper to crank out horsepower than it is to build something to super tight tolerances.

 

[Tony8179]

Very basically, I'm talking about this: how is it possible, in the first place, for something to have a perceivable attribute that is perceived to be universally true. As an example, everything that has mass has gravity, or water boils at a specific temperature. Does the Sebenza's S30V have the same edge retention as AUS-8A?

On the other hand, how is it possible for something to have a perceivable attribute that is not universally true--is the Sebenza overrated?

Ohhhhh. Yeah, I still don't understand what you're saying, but whatever. I'll just read the other posts. Thanks for trying to dumb it down for me though. :thumbup:

 

[DallasSTB]

.... but I want to stop waving intellectual phalli about--...

I was generally lost in the discussion, but that was pretty funny.

 

[RubiconSS]

Ohhhhh. Yeah, I still don't understand what you're saying, but whatever. I'll just read the other posts. Thanks for trying to dumb it down for me though. :thumbup:

I do not propose to speak for what Cynic meant nor do I necessarily ascribe philosophical processes to the discussions of knives but I didn't take it there either. As far as what Kant meant and how that relates I would just say this. IF the world as it lives in our mind at least was devideable into two arenas of the known (or knowable) Kant would have you believe that the Noumenon would constitute the knowable without benefit of having seen it, experienced it or identified the object or event with your senses. These would certainly comprise the loftier realities( i.e. God) as for the other broader category of phenomenon or things we find knowable or we consider familiar through use of our senses.
(i.e. knives) Again, I think Cynic by his own admission was being humorous as was I but the response was to my supposition of what is the nature of "over rated" and what is meant by the question.
I advanced the theory that when someone asks is something over rated are they really asking (or better yet, should they be asking) is it over priced?
I then attempted to answer both questions in the context of as compared to what.
ALL of which has accomplished nothing more than to prove that several of us (me included) has some extra time on our hands this fine Friday afternoon and whats wrong with that? NaDa.