Sebenza VS Lochsa.... What are your impressions?

A

alan aragon

Joined
Dec 10, 2003
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i've been intrigued by the legionous following of the sebenza, & i've gained a great deal of respect for chris reeve's meticulous production of the knife, based on what i've read.

recently i caught wind of the scott cook lochsa, and was pretty wowed by its aesthetics & sensitivity to handle ergonomics. it strikes me as a sebenza that's been tastefully customized by a skilled machinist.

does anyone here who owns or has used/handled both have any comparisons/impressions you wanna share? i'm curious about whether scott cook in fact used his CRK experience & took the sebenza to a higher level, as it's been said about the lochsa.. any practical advantages to the lochsa aside from its sexier looks? is the fit & finish better? does it feel more comfortable in the hand? is it bottom-line a better knife when all attributes are considered?

holler at me.
 
The Sebenza is a production knife, and the Lochsa is custom. That should be enough difference right there. There should be much more handwork and finishing in a custom than any production, no matter what company made it.
 
Originally posted by Steven Roos
The Sebenza is a production knife, and the Lochsa is custom. That should be enough difference right there. There should be much more handwork and finishing in a custom than any production, no matter what company made it.
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i've read many times that the sebenza's fit, finish, & functionality is in the same league or better than many customs. i wouldn't have posed my original question otherwise.

so, let's set aside for a second, the fact that one is a custom & one isn't, & examine the question from here.
 
I have carried both a large sebenza and a lochsa. I have found the fit and finish to be very similar. Scott seems to take just as much pride in his work as Chris does. Both knives use top knotch materials and I really like the integral lock. Both are very nice knives.

With that being said, I like the handle of the lochsa better. It is more comfortable in the hand when really bearing down on something. I haven't used either knife in wet, bloody or greasy conditions so I can't comment on that.
 
It would be great if you could realisticly set aside the fact one is production and one is custom. But you simply can't. They are two totally different worlds of knife collecting.

The resale on the customs hold their value much better then any production knife. As stated above, their is much more hand finishing and personal touches on a custom. With custom, you get more options as to materials, shapes, and finishes.

Is the sebenza good knife? Yes. It's also an overpriced production knife. If you look at choices (or lack thereof) in handle materials/shaps, blade materials/shapes, finishes, etc... the sebenza loses to customs hands down every time. I refuse to pay custom prices for a production knife where I don't have the choices in what materials/finishes I want, as well as the desired ergonomics I want. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Between a Lochsa and a sebenza, for me it's a no brainer. I'd choose the custom every time.

JR
 
ron jeremy - you make a good point about the sebbie's high price, & that's another reason why i'm comparing it to the lochsa, cuz it ain't a whole lot cheaper than the lochsa. in fact, with any degree of custom options (inlay, handle etching, etc), it's comes reeeal close to even in price to the standard lochsa.
 
I don't have a Lochsa, at least not yet, but it's at the top of my list of knives I can't afford right now. Many of us bought Sebenzas before there were Lochsas..:) Besides the differences in custom vs. production, the Lochsa is an Integral, while the Sebbie is not, and that's one of the primary attractions to me. It's not bolted together, it's carved out of a solid chink of Titanium! Now that's a signifigant difference to me.

jmx
 
The fact that one is "production" and the other is "custom" has no bearing other than collector appeal.
How do they compare in fit, finish, workmanship, and usablitiy?
When the small Lochsa becomes a reality, it will be added to my rotation based solely on Scott's background and opinions expressed by a certain few forumites here whose opinions I've come to trust.
I don't care if it's hand made or machine made. The quality of the final result is all that matters.

Paul
 
The Lochsa is a beauty but why should it get the title of "custom" when it is one of Scotts standard models?

I would give the edge to the Lochsa because I like the one piece handle and shape better, but construction methods I doubt there's a nickles worth of difference in. I mean you just don't whittle out one piece titanium handles with hand tools, I would assume CNC machines are playing a part in the Cook shop.

I know what they say about assuming so if you know diffrently please clue me in.:)
 
The Sebenza is most definitely at or above the quality level of most customs I have come across, and yes, many of them were very pricey. It is truly a rarity to receive a Sebenza in anything but perfect condition, whereas with customs, its always a crapshoot, even if youre dealing with a popular maker. Im not saying there arent better custom knives out there, sometimes you get lucky and get a good one, sometimes not, but with regard to quality, F&F, the Sebenza in my experience is at the top of the heap, in the production AND custom realm. You may not like its design, or wish for different choices in handle materials, but I can find zero fault with its function and quality, something i just cant say about most custom knives I have examined. Perhaps the main way the Sebenza beats many customs is that while a custom maker can make a knife as good or better than the Sebenza, they cant do it as consistantly as Chris Reeve does. Maybe its consistant quality where the Sebenza shines and some customs fall short. I admit, im a perfectionist, if im paying for top quality, i expect to get it, things like no blade play, a well executed lock, smooth action, strong, precise detent, centered blade, even grinds and edge bevels. I have found that i get these things more consistantly from CRK than customs, though i still in the end buy customs because while the Sebenza does dazzle me with its perfection and precision, it doesnt have the "art" or creativity i find in some customs.

Yes, i certainly do own customs i like more than the relatively plain Sebenza, but if im looking only at F&F and quality, not design, handles, materials etc, I'll put the Sebenza up against almost any custom out there.

Also, i too like the fact that the Lochsa is a one piece, but can you take it apart for cleaning like the Sebenza? If not, that would bother me i think. But, though i havent yet handled a Lochsa, i have heard nothing but praise for it, usually people call it an improved, custom sebenza. They do look and work very similarly.
 
The Lochsa can be taken apart. The one I have has a "star" pivot pin. Scott supplied a special wrench in order to take this apart. The wrench is a piece of art itself!!
 
I’ve heard people talk about the fit and finish of the sebenza for years. I don’t understand the finish comment. Why is a standard sebenza so hard to finish? For most custom makers the standard sebenza finish would be their bottom of the line finish.

The fit of the sebenza. I think if any knife company were to make the same knife thousands of times for years, the fit should be excellent. Look at the knife. How many “difficult to make” features are there on a sebenza? It is a flat handled, integral locking knife with rounded corners. On a “difficult to make” scale, how high does it rate?

The Lochsa is a custom knife that redefined integral. The handle is one piece. Tom Mayo said there are lots of places where a slip of the machine would result in a thrown away knife.

The sides of the Lochsa are contoured. There are pins driven in the handle that you cannot see because of Scott’s finish. I know from talking to Scott that he works in .0001 (ten thousandths) of an inch in some places on the knife. The pivot and pivot wrench are very nicely made. The difficulty of making the Lochsa is very high.

The standard S30V blade of the Lochsa has a higher Rockwell rating than the sebenza (58-59 vs 60-61).

My only complaint with the sebenza is the thumb stud. It is short and sharp. The thumb stud on the Lochsa is angled to match the surface of the thumb.

When comparing the knives be sure to add “difficulty to make” with fit and finish. Then compare the base model prices, $345 vs $460.

One last comparison. Scott is one of the nicest people in knifemaking.

IMO, the Lochsa is an incredible value.
 
Lack of difficulty to make? The biggest part of the Sebenza's beauty is it's simplicity. No bells and whistles, just a straight forward simple design executed to near perfection.

Paul
 
How many “difficult to make” features are there on a sebenza
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I'd say alot. How many knife companies have tried and failed to make a knife like the sebenza? BM tried once, CRKT tried a couple of times, one company could barely get a few out the door before they gave up.

Buck has one out so does Spyderco, they are both very nice knives, but IMO they still do not match up to the sebenza.

Lochsa looks great, but they are kind of heard to get ahold of.
 
"The fact that one is "production" and the other is "custom" has no bearing other than collector appeal."

PWork, that is a truely absurd comment. That simple fact has everything to do with the knife. Because it is custom, you get the options you want to make it more desirable to you. Whether that be collecting, handle grip/comfort, desired blade steel, other desired options for using and carrying the knife daily.

I have no problems with people loving the sebenza. It is a quality piece. However, for the price category it is in, I think people are doing themselves a disservice by choosing it over a fine custom from from one maker.

Also, someone mentioned the Lochsa isn't custom because it's a base model. I have no desire to get into what is custom and what isn't The lochsa is not a production model because one man is making/controling every aspect of the knife itself and custom finishing the package with his own hands.

I've picked up amazing custom folders for the same, less, or maybe a few dollars more then a sebenza. I have been impressed with the quality of the fit, finish, materials, and choices that make the knife mine. I have never regretted buying any of them. If I ever had to turn around and sell a knife due to unfortunate circumstances, I have never lost money unless I chose to in making a close friend a good deal. I routinely see sebenzas on the secondary market for $50-100 below the saling price. DO any of us truely want to sell any of our knives? I doubt it. But things come up and it is at times necessary. When the time comes, I prefer to have a knife that will retain the value.

Also, so many people when raving about the sebenza love to talk customer service. They talk about how CRK will refinish the knife for $15-20. Every custom maker I have dealt with does it for free, simply pay return shipping. I have never found anyone in the business with better customer service then the custom makers I deal with. They will bend over backwords to make sure your knife is perfect for you. With them doing that, I see no reason to choose production instead.

JR
 
Originally posted by Jeremy Reynolds They will bend over backwords to make sure your knife is perfect for you.
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I think the reason they bend over backwards is because they pretty much have to in order to stay in business. If knife making were my primary source of income, I would try my hardest and then some in order to keep from losing a customer to somebody else. Knife companies, on the other hand, can most likely afford to lose a few customers without affecting too much.


With them doing that, I see no reason to choose production instead.
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Keep in mind that not everybody is foturnate enough to be able to own a custom knife, so production is all they can afford.
 
At some point I plan to write a Lochsa review. It is an incredible knife. As incredible as the Sebenza is for production knives, the Lochsa is for customs, IMO. The overall design objectives of both knives seem the same. Both seem to have incredible precision tolerances. Both have top notch materials. To my eye, the Lochsa has awesome aesthetics, whereas the Sebenza, well, you know how people describe it sometimes :) The Lochsa's handle ergonomics are fantastic for me; the Sebenza's, not so. BTW, this doesn't reduce the Sebenza in my eye as the knife by which all production knives should be judged. A custom knife like the Lochsa should surpass the Sebenza, though many customs fall short where the Lochsa succeeds.

Where the Lochsa is most awesome is in the construction. As you know, it's milled out of a single piece of titanium. The challenges Scott had to meet to pull this off are not obvious unless you consider everything carefully. For example, typically the way you set the lock on a framelock is to take the one scale by itself, then bend the lock as far as you need it to. Drill a little hole and press in the ball for the ball/detent mechanism. The stop pin is easy, just drill a hole in both slabs, the pin helps hold 'em together.

Now think about the Lochsa. Since the sides are attached, the leaf can't be bent further than the small distance to the other scale. The hole for the ball detent and the ball itself press-fitted using just the small slot between the scales. And how's the stop pin get in there, anyway? I know the answers to these questions, and Scott will discuss it all at length if you ask him about it. The point is, he solved problems no other maker had to solve; hell, he didn't even know if it was possible to build a knife of this construction before he set out.

So now, you can gain a whole new level of appreciation for this knife. Yes, it's incredible precise, strong, made of top-notch materials, ground to perfection, ergonomic and beautiful. It's also an example of unique engineering problems and their most-elegant solutions.

Joe
 
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