Sheath WIP

[karnaaj]

Matt, did you mention the weight of the leather you use? And also the cut? I have looked at the Wickett and Craig site and there are a lot of choices. Paul

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Using drill press for punching the stitch holes, I suggest trying an ice pick like polished metal "awl" or a needle a little larger than you sew with, chucked up in the drill press. I always preferred to punch the holes with power off and no rotation, but be sure to lube the awl with common paraffin wax or bee's wax every few insertions. It will make it so much easier. Actually the way I did it mimicked the action of a heavy duty stitcher without thread.

That's a great idea. I've been using a punch and hammer and I would like more control which I am sure the drill press would provide. Thanks for sharing. DVD's added to the "to buy" list. :thumbup:

 

[Stormdrane]

Great WIP pics and info, thank you for sharing!

 

[forcedestrike]

Incredible stuff, how long would you estimate you spend on each sheath?

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Bailey Knives]

Thanks everyone,

Karnaaj, I use 8-9oz middle grade leather from them. It is the english bridle, I believe. I tried something new this time, and ordered one piece of it that had been drum dyed. I really like it, the I got the medium brown, and the dye is very evenly applied (done in the drum) and it still takes the tooling well. Your best bet is to call them and tell them what you are using it for. Let them know if you plan on doing tooling on it, the guys there are very knowledgeable and more than willing to help you out. I did that my first time, and now I just ask them to look up what I ordered last time, and repeat it (except this time when I got the dyed stuff)

Forcedstrike, I figure I have about 3 hours into this sheath, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. I was still working on another sheath at the same time, so it is hard to figure out how much of the time to divide out to each sheath. I average about that long, although sometimes it takes me about double that time. I am always trying something new, and usually it ends up saving me time in the long run, but the first couple times it takes me longer until I get the process down.

 

[kornflakez]

This is amazing! beautiful sheath and knife!

 

[rocketmann]

Matt, the sheath looks great and the knife is no slouch either. One thing that I do is instead of using a drill bit to drill the stitch holes is I cut the head off of a finishing nail and run it in the drill press. I lube it with wax and it burnishes a nice neat hole thru the leather with out all of the dust and fibers that a drill bit produces. You have to find a straight nail first.

 

[Camaleoa]

Thanks a lot. I started to make the sheaths my husband's knives and we didn't know about the work of Paul Long. Great job Matt.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Actually, I bought the dehydrator specifically to dry leather, but I would love to make some jerky... I love that stuff. I wish I could live on jerky and some Sam Adams.

I make my own jerky on my grill/smoker all the time.

If you have a side box/smoker on your grill, I have a fool proof spicy teriyaki sauce (Yoshida's sauce mixed with Sirachi hot sauce with a bit if salt sprinkled on on the grill/smoker).






Back on topic, thanks for posting these pics. Funny, I always assumed you were an older gentleman who had taken up knife making in his golden years............

I have no idea why? I do that a lot with people on here. I just have this mental picture of what they look like, which is nearly always wrong!

I am a huge fan of your knives and sheaths!

 

[Wild Rose]

I think the tooling on the front and back is classy and sets your sheaths apart from the common one sided pieces. I see the sheath as a complete package and whether it is off the belt or not, I want every aspect of it to be finished. For that same reason, I opted not to get the Tippmann. I don't like the look of the unfinished holes it puts on the backside. I used to just drive the needle through in the drill press, too but found that I got better results with it spinning at high rpm's.

I also have to mention that I think rivets are the way to go with the belt loop. I have seen too many stitch-only connections ripped apart to convince me otherwise. The same goes with a couple strategically place rivets on the welt. Again, this is purely from my own experience and testing but that is all I can truly trust, right?

Rick

Rick the "problem" with rivets is that over time they will weaken the leather and cause failure - that's based on over 45 years of doing repair work on all kinds of leather goods - one of my early mentors was an Amish harness maker and said rivets were the sign of the amateur and in many ways that still holds true for the connoisseur of good leather and for the pro that can translate into dollars. Copper and brass in particular cause verdigris build up due to the acidic nature of the veg/bark leather (veg tan is about 4.5 on the PH scale as it comes from the tannery - neutral is 7.0). This was a major problem back in the day with cartridge loops. Sewn properly the stitches or tear. Now I'm sure someone will look at some of my work and say "but Chuck you do use rivets at times!" - yep but only on period pieces that are repros of originals that also used them.
As for decorating on the back it's one of those items I VERY repectfully (and cautiously!) disagree with Paul on and again is based on my study and work with "period" pieces from various eras. But then again it's those differences in styles/opinion/etc. that make the world go round...just like some folks prefer Scotch others prefer Bourbon...some prefer red heads and others blondes...........

 

[Bailey Knives]

Does the same thing happen if the rivets are nickel silver?

 

[Rick Marchand]

You know, this is the first time I have considered the longterm effect of rivets with regard to acidity/ph and leather deterioration. I'm sure different tanning methods play a huge part, too!

Now, I am going to have to do some thinking. I have been using Tandy's stitch-awl thread which is like an artificial waxed linen. The artificial sinew seemed to break too easily. During my abuse tests, the thread would give way well before the rivets would. There are a couple other issues I've experienced before using rivets... but I won't get into it in Matt's thread.

Perhaps, I will send you or Paul an email (or start a thread in the Sheath forum) about my rivet addiction... lol. Whatever gets me to a better product. I really appreciate the reply, sir:thumbup:

 

[Bailey Knives]

Rick, Keep us all posted. Use this thread, or start a new one, I don't mind if you want to do it here. I am here to learn, just like most others and am curious about what other issues you came upon with the rivets.

 

[Wild Rose]

Does the same thing happen if the rivets are nickel silver?

To a degree yes - what happens with them is the leather around the metal tends to hold in dampness and thus doesn't dry out as fast and so the leather rots out around the rivet over time. I'm not saying that rivets are totally bad, just there are better ways in my experience and in the experience of others whose work I highly respect. Plus most of the nickle ones are plated iron and when it wears through you will get rusting issues,

Rick - artificial sinew was never designed for heavy sewing - it was a sort of mock up of the real thing designed for re-enactors for use mostly on clothing. I only use linen or hemp thread for handsewing since I'm a dyed in the wool traditionalist and also due to the fact I only anymore make period gear.
IMO Paul or maybe the folks at Campbell-Bosworth would be the best for recommending one of the synthetics - I used some of the nylon pre-waxed handsewing threads back when I did military/tactical gear in the 1970's and '80's, but never really liked it since it was way over waxed and too thick for my taste. I'd bet some of the sewing machine synthetic threads might just be the way to go and then wax them for hand sewing???, but again I have no experience with them outside of some machine work I did on repairs back many moons ago in my "apprentice" years.
One thing that IMO makes a big difference in strength is a good glue job - done properly it adds scads of strength and then the sewing really is more for "compression" to hold the it together - when glued right you will tear the leather before you tear out the glue.

 

[Will52100]

I've been using copper harness rivets for several years with no issues. I'm wondering though since I dip the sheath in hot wax if that is helping the longevity of it, since your saying that the reason rivets fail is because of moister if I'm understanding you correctly. I only use the rivets on the belt loop.

Opinions?

BTW, again a great tutorial and awesome knife and sheath.

 

[Mudbug007]

This thread is getting better and better! I have to say, that this thread also hits home. I have a Case Commanche that I bought back in the late 80's from a hardware store. It has a big fold over flap on the pouch style sheath that totally encloses the knife and is secured with a snap. It's been a great knife and it's been "retired" for several years. I went to take it out earlier this year and when I pulled on the flap, the snap stayed snapped but the leather tore loose from around the snap. I was horrified!

After reading this post, I now know why that happened. It's a shame because it was a beautiful sheath!

 

[Burton Harruff]

I quit using rivets on the belt loop a few years back when a knife I was carrying on a desert camping and hiking trip. After a long day of hiking a rock scrambling I went to take the knife off and the bottom rivet on the belt loop had "popped". After this I went to sewing on all my belt loops and you would be hard pressed to ever break them. I also spoke with the guys at the local Tandy about this and they said that a "popped" rivet is common.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Okay, please note that these pics are for the purpose of showing my extreme use of rivets. This is my own personal user sheath. Normally, I try to limit the use of copper rivets to what I deem as necessary (from what I learned in my testing.) In other words, don't look at this sheath for all it's aesthetic flaws(the dirt, grit wax and scratches are optional)... It will never be in a customer's hands. A few of the rivets in this particular sheath style are especially redundant.(The spine-side rivet at the sheath mouth and the bottom rivet at the upward curve of the tip.) Note that nothing is ever riveted only... they are there to reinforce the potential stress points.

I leave about a 1/16" of the post above the washer and hand peen it over... there is zero chance of a popped rivet...

The snaps are also riveted in...

Here it is, in all its riveted glory! Do you now see why I don't post my stuff in the sheath forum? They would be all over me... lol.

I can describe the testing I do, as well. All these tests are done while the sheath(knife in) is strapped to a 6"dia cedar fence post....

1. Upward lift - Grab the tip of the sheath and lift it out and up 180degs, to simulate it getting caught up while sliding down a hill or getting off a horse, etc...
2. Sideways swing - Grab the tip and swing/rotate it clockwise/counter clockwise a full 180degs. Again, to simulate getting caught up under great force.
3. Handle pulls - Hold the knife handle and pull away from the body. This is also done forward and backward, then repeated with the knife part-way out of the sheath This is one of the biggies... I think it is realistic to believe this scenario can occour under certain circumstances. Rivets rule the roost when the welt is exposed to a sharp edge under force. I completely understand if you think this is unrealistic... I just happen to think it is.
4. Downward push - From the top of the handle apply force directly down through the sheath. This is especially hard on friction fit sheaths.

All of the above tests are done at modest levels of force and eventually, to destruction.

ETA: Longterm deterioration is something I had never included into the equation.... I really do thank you for bringing this to my attention. This is the kind of experience that someone like me can't find in testing and has little chance to come across on the internet. Bladeforums Rocks!

Rick

 

[tattooedfreak]

I think rivets look good if done properly and used to good effect but I have seen some pretty ugly ones as well. I dont use them mostly because I can't make them look good hehe. I use waxed sailmakers thread that I get from work. One spool has lasted me about a dozen sheaths so far and there is still about 3/4 left. It's not too thick and is fairly strong.

 

[Wild Rose]

I've been using copper harness rivets for several years with no issues. I'm wondering though since I dip the sheath in hot wax if that is helping the longevity of it, since your saying that the reason rivets fail is because of moister if I'm understanding you correctly. I only use the rivets on the belt loop.

Opinions?

BTW, again a great tutorial and awesome knife and sheath.

Will - using the hot dip wax method is a whole nother animal in a sense since it heats the leather to over 160°F and at that temp the leather itself changes at the molecular level - at that point you have created cuir bouilli aka boiled leather - so you are dealing with major changes to the leather itself. Cuir bouilli traditionallly was done with water and heat rather than hot wax although some records do talk about hot wax but only as a finish and not the main process.
Personally I don't care for the hot wax treatment as in my experience the wax tends to become a magnet for dirt and grime.

Rich - that's not bad looking sheath at all and again dependent on the end use and desired "style" the rivets can add their own appeal. One thing you might experiment with is sealing around the rivets with something like CA glue? Also if you want a smoother look to your rivets rather than the hammered look which some customers may prefer get a set of Bob Douglas's Copper Rivet setter tools - not cheap and each set only fits one size rivet, but they are the absolutely best there is. His tools are now being sold exclusively by Sheridan Leather Outfitters - contact info is here; http://leatherworker.net/pmd/sheridan-leather-outfitters-prm.html