Should custom knifemakers act against hype?

Les :

You think locks should be expected to maintain the blade stability even when the knife is being used in a way it was not designed for?
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Lets say a maker grinds a 10" blade, 3/16" stock, O1 at 64 RC, profiles the edge really thin (.01" behind the bevel, with a 10 degree included angle on the bevel and advertizes it as a tactical / fighter. Further suppose that they give Mario this blade and ask him to compare it to one of Hossoms fighters in a public forum because they want their blade to be looked at as an alternative to it.

Is it reasonable for Mario to focus the comparison just on the intended scope of work described by the maker (*really* light cutting in soft materials obviously) in which case it blade would probably outperform Hossoms or should he comment on how Hossoms blade is much more durable and the functional advantages it offers - even if the O1 maker doesn't think those things are sensible and in fact are seriously abusive?

I think that lockbacks should be able to take spine impacts and white-knuckled without unlocking. If I am reviewing a folder these will be elements I will comment on regardless of what the makers feelings are on these two issues. If the blades fail to do these thing then I would have a negative option on that blade - as a knife for me. However this is not a slam on the abilities of the maker - just a difference of opinion in regards to function.

As a particular example, I can't use the Spyderco Military safely as it unlocks in my grip. This does not mean that the Spyderco designers are incompetent. They simply chose to maximize the ease of unlocking, including with gloves on, over this particular element of security. So personally I have a negative opinion of the Military in regards to my personal use - this does not mean I regard it in general as a bad knife. It is well designed - just not for me.

Jerry :

are you suggesting that I should have ...
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I am not suggesting any particular action. I started this thread as I wanted to know how people (users and makers) felt about a makers responsibility (or lack of) to speak out against positive false promotion of their blades. But since you asked, in regards to the scratching, if I was the maker I would not comment if he left it out as it does not indicate any ability or lack of on my part. If however they said that got it 100% mint NIB, yes I would drop him an email reminding him that it had to be refinished.

I have squelched at least two very favorable reviews of my knives by asking they not be posted. Why do you suppose that was?
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I don't know. If someone had something meaningful to say about something I had done I would want others to be able to learn from them.

Why don't you answer Darrel's questions?
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For the same reason I don't open mail that says "YOU MAY HAVE ALREADY WON !!!!"

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

When I was in 7th grade I took wood shop in shcool. The instructor had a saying "the right tool for the right job". You don't use a screwdrive as a chisel! Can you, yes. Should you, no.

Spine whacking is a useless test. Why, because no where in life while using a knife properly will you do this to your knife. The "white knuckle" test is legitimate, as you will at times squeeze so hard that the lock disengages.

Of course when I was in 3rd grade and a Cub Scout, I was shown how to use a folding knife properly. Please note this knife had no lock and the knife never closed on my hand. I bring this fact up, because this knife would have failed the "spine whack" test every time.

When I was in the Army, my constant companions in the field were my Walter Brend Model 2 and in the pocket of the sheath the Swiss Army Champion. Again, there was no lock on the Swiss Army knife, which would have failed the spine whack test every time. Guess all that high speed cub scout training paid off, as I never cut myself or had the blade close on my hand with that knife either.

Perhaps it's not the knife that should pass a test, it sounds more like the owner of the knife should pass a test.

So while I will agree the white knuckle test is a vaild one, the spine whack test is HYPE!



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
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Because my questions are direct and to the point they will not be anwered. No wishy washy crap in the question
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[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06-27-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Darrel Ralph:

When knives are used for the purpose they were INTENDED the crap stops. Should a fighter chop concrete LOLOLOLOLOL.. Should any knife chop concrete? SURE I do it every day!!!!!!!!
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Hey! You said I should use that fighter hard, and I did!

The fun thing about Darrel's knive is that you can chop up a cinderblock with them, and then use the chunks to re-sharpen the edge (But you probably won't need to)! They also will chop paper, and ever-so-delicately slice through a free hanging leg of lamb with a single pass.

I used Darrel's new fighter to change a flat. It pried off the hubcap, undid the lug nuts, repaired the damaged tire with some kind of new DR sealant, compressed air to fill the tire, then actually rotated and balanced the wheel before putting the tire back on. Now, I know Darrel will say that this isn't the fighter's intended use, but....

BTW - The Hossom just couldn't get a similar tire sealed and inflated. POS.
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AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
 
The problem with hype is that it is so hard to pin down. One man's hype is the next person's new favorite. Take folder locks for example. A couple of new lock designs being used by manufacturers are called hype in this thread even though they are a step forward in reliability and strength over liner locks, and as far as I know, Benchmade has never said anything untrue about them. In fact Benchmade has been quite understated on their web-site and in their ads, saying they make no claims about the strength of the Axis lock, other than that it is a strong and reliable lock, which it is.

My opinion of "hype" is that it is what some folks call something that other people like like a lot, but they don't. Unfortunately, what is implied is that all those other people are stupid, have no factual basis for their enthusiasm, and have only been duped into buying a bill of goods. That is a false and unsupportable assertion.

I think the Axis lock, Rolling Lock, button lock, frame lock, etc. are so much more reliable they make the liner lock all but obsolete. Oh, did I just hype something? No, that is merely one person's opinion. It is certainly true in my case, as I have not purchased another liner lock since the introduction of the Axis lock, and have in fact sold most of the liner locks I had, while I continue to buy Axis lock, Rolling Lock (Pat Crawford), and frame lock folders.

And how much harm is "hype" really doing to Bladeforum readers? When Lynn Thompson sells (for money! Can you believe that?!) a video claiming that his AUS8 knives are the best in the world, that's is certainly hype as far as I am concerned, but it is hard to see how anyone has been harmed by buying a Cold Steel knife, even for full retail. They are OK cutting tools for what they cost, for the most part.

Mad Dog Knives has been mentioned as being hyped, but I get exactly what I hope to get out of them. They are exactly what I want in a field knife, and I keep buying more of them knowing exactly what everybody else knows about them. One man's hype, another man's favorite.

But the main question seems to be whether makers are responsible for what dealers and customers say about their knives. Sure, if somebody is saying something that is patently false, or grossly misleading. But who can point to a black and white case of that? What is called hype around here is usually just a matter of differing opinions.

 
I agree with Jerry
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, and Kit
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!!!

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Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!http://www.nebsnow.com/L6steel
Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms!!!
 
Sorry, misunderstood the question.


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RICK - Left Handers Unite

[This message has been edited by RGRAY (edited 06-27-2000).]
 
RGRAY

You wrote "Should custom knifemakers act against hype? Ask Microtech."

Question for you, why would we ask Microtech about stamping out hype in the custom knife market.

Other than working in collaborations with a custom knife maker, Walter Brend (who is no longer associated with them) and now Greg Lightfoot. Microtech has nothing to do with custom knives.

I realize I am perhaps overstating the obvious, so I had to ask RGRAY why he brought MT into this.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
George said:
Made up tests are not indicative of performance in the real world.
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Les said:
Perhaps it's not the knife that should pass a test, it sounds more like the owner of the knife should pass a test.
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Les and George are right!
Les The cub scout knife quote gets the crown!!!!!!!!
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Cliff you keep quoting folks but they didnt say anything? Lots of other posts with nothing in them? The thread looks kind of weird with you quoting folks that didnt say anything? Im confused!

Why don't you answer Darrel's questions?


For the same reason I don't open mail that says "YOU MAY HAVE ALREADY WON !!!!"

-Cliff
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I guess this thread is like one of those: YOU HAVE WON EMAIL POSTS that you said you delete before opening? Hum? Perhaps you should have answered this one eh?

When you start answering folks who didnt say anything its time to change your medication again.

Tim said:
custom makers should act against idiot testers who do rediculous things to their knives
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The Path of the good knifemaker is beset on all sides, by the inequities of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil testers who dont know how to use a knife. Blessed is good knifemaker, who in the name of charity and justice, shepard the clients, through the valley of bad testers. For the good knifemaker is truly the clients keeper, and the finder of lost client. And the good knifemaker will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those, who attempt to poison the client. And you will know our name is good, when we lay our vengeance upon the bad tester!

Game over!
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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com



[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06-27-2000).]
 
Les :

Spine whacking is a useless test.
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Not everyone agrees with that Les. I have a knife currently (Gunting) and spine whacking was one of the tests used during the initial evaluation by Spyderco. If I am comparing this folder to others, to me it has an advantage because of this, to you it doesn't. The makers and designer both think this test is useful and functional as do I. Am I hyping it by saying it is stable in regards to spine whacks? Why? Simply because you don't think it is a reasonable test?

Or how about if I turn it around, take the Brend #2, you have commented that prying is ok with this knife. How about if someone asked you to compare another maker's blade with the Brend, but that other maker thinks prying is abusive with such knives. Would you point out the difference in ability? Are you hyping the Brend because that maker doesn't think prying is a functional requirement?

While on the surface it seems reasonable to expect a maker to outline the uses of his blades, and obviously so for any warrenty issues, if you step up and compete with other makers how reasonable is it to expect everyone else to follow your defination of "abuse" and for all commentary to be restricted to such.

For example, on Randalls forums awhile back a survival / heavy use maker, commented, in a negative light, that a customer damaged one of his blades by using it to split wood. Randall commented that in his opinion this is something a survival knife should be able to do. If someone asked him to evaluate that guys knives is he being out of line to use the blade in this fashion - or at least comment that it is unsuitable in the eyes of the maker for such?


Interesting discussion Les, thanks for bring it up.

Steve :

But the main question seems to be whether makers are responsible for what dealers and customers say about their knives. Sure, if somebody is saying something that is patently false, or grossly misleading. But who can point to a black and white case of that?
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How to judge false promotion is not trivial, in order to do it with certainty you would need to do the exact same thing, with the exact same blade and have the exact same skill level. The first two things are slightly possible, the last obviously isn't. However if you can step in to speak out against an underpromotion you must have the ability to speak out against hype. Both require you to judge off of a common baseline. If you can't do one you can't do the other. And of course, differences in user skill and materials are not unbounded in the effect they have, and as George pointed out, certainty is not always needed (it is not like you have it in the rest of the decisions you make). He also raises an even more important question - should a maker tend to err on the side of caution?

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 06-27-2000).]
 
What a hilarious thread! If it wasnt so funny I would take it serious!
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I just returned from a 10 days wilderness survival with Ron and Karen Hood, and we did a bunch of real knife testing. (Still tired and hungry!)

Hype? Well, I cut a horseshoe in half with a knife I made of A-2. (Whoops, is that hype?) Maybe not, it is on film.... I would never recommend it it and I would consider it abuse of the utmost and would not replace a knife that someone did the same thing with and destroyed it. Also did a lot of digging and chopping hammering and prying with my personal knife and all went well.

Anyway, thanks all for an amusing thread! Tim and Darell, you guys kill me!
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www.simonichknives.com
 
This thread sure took a weird turn. Are all the posts being devoured by a smiley virus?

If some generous person has a clue they can spare me, feel free to send private email.

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[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 06-27-2000).]
 
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