Should custom knifemakers act against hype?

I think Rob gave up a perfect definition of "hype". If a maker makes a claim about a knife (i.e. Cutting a horseshoe in half) but won`t tolerate anyone else repeating the experiment, then you have hype. Why even make the claim if you`re not willing to have others try it?

Now....what Cliff was asking is this; Let`s say there is a dealer out there who is selling one of Rob`s A-2 knives, and this dealer is claiming that this knife will "cut a horseshoe in half". Cliff`s question is, does Rob have a responsibilty to act against that hype? Knowing that Rob would consider cutting a horseshoe in half as abusive and not covered by warranty, should a dealer (or a maker) make such a claim?

This is a fairly lucid question and deserves a slightly better response from some of the makers here. I guess if this thread proves anything, it`s that you don`t have to be a Rhodes Scholar to be a great knifemaker.
 
Cliff,

Tests should be designed to show the ability or inability for desired use and design of the knife.

Refering to the Brend. Walter's knives employ no hype can you pry with it, yes. Is this part of the design application for this knife, no. So if I broke Walter's knife broke is that the makers fault, no. It is mine because I used the knife for something it was not intended to be used for.

As I remember the peg board in 7th grade Shop class there was the outline of every tool on the board. That way when one wasn't put away , you knew what you were looking for.

However, if you glanced up there for the chisel and it was gone, some of the other students used a screw driver instead. Was this tool designed to be used as a screw driver, no.

Too many people out there are looking for more bang for their buck on a knife. By being able to tell someone one or just themselves that the knife can also, be a screw driver, a chisel, Ice-pick and pry bar. They feel that they have show extreme versatility in the knife and can now justify the cost.

Reality is, that most knives will fail in the above mentioned roles, why? Because, the knife was not designed to do these jobs. The aforementioned tools were.

At age 8 I grasped the conecpt that you if you use a knife properly and show the knife the respect it deserves, you will not get cut.

At age 12 I grasped the concept, the right tool for the right job. Knives were for cutting, scew dirvers were for screws, a chisel was used to remove material and a pry bar or crow bar was used for prying.

This all took place in the late 60's. Now here in the year 2000 why is it so difficult for some to grasp this concept?

Those who are confused as to what a custom knife is, are generally factory knife buyers, who want their knives to be more than they are.

Those who test a knife with unreal tests, are tyring to focus and rightfully so, the customers attention on what their knives can do. However, you then have to aske yourself, why don't they focus on what the knife can do while using it for it's intended purpose. Since someone has brought it up all ready, take Cold Steel for instance. I personally saw one of my soldiers show all of his friends how the tip could go through a quarter, and then go through a piece of sheet metal (car door). Later that day he cut a piece of commo wire (looks like stereo wire) against a tree and the blade broke in half.

In 1987 when this happened the soldier payed $75.00 for that knife. That was a big piece of that soldiers monthly pay as an E-2.

Cold Steel would not refund the money, but did send a replacement. He sold the knife and we got him a Randall Gilbreath Fighter, cost was $125.00. I saw him use that knife for almost 2 years, it never failed. So exactly how much is a bad knife worth.

Cliff, this all goes back to hype. I used my knives very hard. With the exception of an Al Mar SERE Folder (which I stll have and a spare), I saw every type of factory knife fail in the field. Obviously, there are going to be problems in quality control. A lot of times you get what you pay for. You buy a 5 dollar knife at a flea market because it looks like a Buck 110 folder. Then you use it hard and it breaks, what did you expect.

I used Brend's knives in the field and was very happy with the results. I also used, Bauchop, Carson, Crawford, Gilbreath, Siska, Timberline (custom), Lile, Hibben, Parrish and many others. I always had very good results with these knives.

Ultimately, I chose the Brend because the edge, D-2, was easy to maintain (even sharpened it on river rocks) and the handle and guard were very comfortable. Yes, I must admit that my 7th grade shop teacher whould have sent me to detention many times for what I did with Walter's knives. This was abuse, not use.

So I do understand that you desperate times require desperate measures. But the customer should also understand that hype is just that. If you use the knife for it's intended purpose it will last you a lifetime. If ther e comes a time when the knife has to be used in an extreme fashion. If it holds up, be greatful, if it doesn't, remember that is not what you bought the knife for.

For those of you who dislike liner locks because you think they will fail. Just ask the maker to remove a couple thouands extra off of the liner lock. After about two weeks of use, the lock will slide all the way to the other side. Making it a major pain in the ass to close the knife. But it will with stand every major "Spine Whack" test you can give it.

Also, for those of you who have done the Spine Whack test and you felt the blade move.
You realize of course that the thickness of the titanium used will under normal circumstances keep the blade in place. At the same time this thickness (or more accuratley, thiness) will flex when you whack it. So the blade is secure, you are just given the illusion that lock is coming lose.

So the answer is, ask the maker to double the
Thickness of the liner. Then feel free to "Whack" away with no worries.

The main thing is, and I think Cliff and everyone else in this thread would agree. Identify what your presnt and future needs will be. Find out what blade steel and shape are best or are the best comprimise for these
needs. Then seek out what you feel to be a competent knife maker and have him or her build the knife. Keep this in mind, price is what you pay one time, however, cost is something you may pay for the rest of your life. So don't cut corners and go with lesser materials. Spend a little extra to have it done right and that knife should last you a life time.

Every knife owner out there should assume the role of Hype Debunker. If it was the truth, they would just call it that.



------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
tongue.gif
 
"you don`t have to be a Rhodes Scholar to be a great knifemaker."

BUT, a Rhodes Scholar can be president. Now there's an image of honesty and integrity we can all aspire to.
smile.gif



------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
Hello,

Come on they are just knives for crynoutloud, there is no edged holy Grail !!

Hype is just that, hype! either the Knife stands on its own attributes and performance or it doesnt for its given design and what its designed to do. And i belive the same thing about Sheathing work also.

we have to remember, there just knives,,,they all need to be sharpened, some are designed for specific purposes, some are of a good design but made bad, ect...ect.

hype doesnt matter to me, once ya know, you can smell hype a mile away, and just avoid it by purchasing somthing else.

But because somone buys one of my knives or anyone elses and uses it in a wrong fashion to its detrement at a gross abuse level Doesnt mean that it wasnt a good knife,,just that it had a bad user. And at that point how can you argue hype?

Allen



------------------

Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA

" You can make great knives and sell a few, Or make Great AFFORDABLE knives and sell many"
WEB SITE : http://hometown.aol.com/bladecutlery/index.html
 
Confusing an (THAT BETTER) uneducated knife client with tests that knives are not intended to perform is the worst form of hype. This is bad for the knife industry as a whole. A set of standards should be set down for each style and type of knife. These standards should be set up by knife makers along with knife folks who understand knives to stop this insanity.

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06-29-2000).]
 
All of us poor, "uneducated knife client" (I`m pretty sure you meant "clientele")would like to thank you for looking out for us! You know how easily we`re all confused!

Can`t you give your prospective customers a little more credit? Jeeze!

While we`re on the subject of senseless testing, what about the torture tests your knives need to pass in order to get your ABS rating? Do you consider those tests as "real world"? Should all blades be able to pass the ABS standard? Most of the makers I know would consider those tests as abusive.
 
steve b- the abs testing is simply set up to test the makers ability, its not set up to form a standard for what a knife should do in the real world.



------------------
"Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"
Thomas Jefferson

www.lameyknives.com
 
Steve
The ABS test is a good example of what people think and what the test was designed for.
The test was designed to establish a makers heat treating practice for one and there edge
geometry knowledge.

Steve the intent of my post above is to set standards for testing . Not to debut who needs a shepard. There are folks out there that are newbies. Do you think it leaves a good impression on new folks when they see BS testing on knives. They buy a knife and expect it to chop steel? You as an educated knife person may understnd that a test like this is not standard. But does everyone?

You have knowledge of knives it seems. Can you list the functions that you feel all styles of knives should perform? What should these folks expect when they buy a knife.


Do you feel it would be a good addition to the knowledge base for the knife industry if knife standards by type and style were in writting ? I do.


------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06-29-2000).]
 
Steve :

Why even make the claim if you`re not willing to have others try it?
Click to expand...

Because it generates interest.

This is a fairly lucid question and deserves a slightly better response
Click to expand...

The problem is that it is not a trivial issue. It is however I think critical as I have found a very strong correlation between how makers respond to such questions and the quality of their product.

When there was a lot of talk on the forums about the fragility of CPM stainless steels (440V and 420V) I dropped Phil Wilson an email and we discussed it. He detailed several things including flex things he had done (generate a perm. set) which he encouraged me to do on the 420V blade I had from him.

When I asked about repeating some of the heavy stress work I had done earlier on his CPM-10V blade (cutting used carpet, staples, mild steel bars, light chopping) with the 420V one in order to see the relative edge durabilities, his responce was positive and he was interested in the results.

I am very pleased with the performance of his blades and can say similar things about many in the knife industry, P.J. Turner, Jerry Busse, Bill Martino, Ed Schott etc. . All of them have similar attitudes, and similar levels of blade performance. Based purely on discussion, and without never handling a blade, I would strongly bet on many others such as R. J. Martin just because of their attitude. You simply can't have it without the blade performance to back it up - unless you are insane of course.

Les :

Tests should be designed to show the ability or inability for desired use and design of the knife.
Click to expand...

And who decides what the standards for performance are? The maker? What about if you compare two similar knives from two different makers with radically different viewpoints?

So the blade is secure, you are just given the illusion that lock is coming lose
Click to expand...

There are knives that fail the spine whack by having the the lock disengage and the blade collapse. It is not just a lack of a secure feeling.

Allen :

But because somone buys one of my knives or anyone elses and uses it in a wrong fashion to its detrement at a gross abuse level Doesnt mean that it wasnt a good knife,,just that it had a bad user. And at that point how can you argue hype?
Click to expand...

Easily. You just point out that in order to get the desired level of performance in regards to cutting (or speed or whatever) you had to limit the durability and it is not possible to achive that level of ability and still have the durability for that specific test. Of course if there are blades that can do this - well you don't have much room to argue.

Steve :

Should all blades be able to pass the ABS standard?
Click to expand...

As with any standard there is not universal agreement on what it means. I have seen comments which do use that as a performance judgement "Unlike forged blades the Battle Mistress can't bend 90 degrees.", and others like Matt's. What is reasonable varies from user to user and from maker to maker.

Tom Mayo has commented many times that people have used his ATS-34 blades to chop concrete and rocks (accidently) without damage when comments about low toughness are made. There was a post recently about one of Hossom's blade chopping a steel post repeatily without even losing it shaving sharpness. Yet Darrel has commented several times now, in multiple threads about how abusive it is to cut steel, concrete and such with blades.

How would you compare a large blade of similar intent from Mayo, Ralph, and Hossom? Whose standard defines acceptable use? What about if you open up to really extreme performers standards like Strider, Busse, HI etc. who fully back their blades?

-Cliff
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp:
Yet Darrel has commented several times now, in multiple threads about how abusive it is to cut steel, concrete and such with blades.
Click to expand...

I've got to think that I'm partially to blame for this one - In order to keep me pacified and shut up about my pending delivery, Darrel gave me an early example of his new fighter and told me to pound it hard. He was nothing but stunned when I told him that my interpretation of pounding it hard had involved a cinder block.

You'll note that I didn't post a "review" touting the results of this encounter, and nor did Darrel (although he had every reason to). It was a silly test, and though Darrel and I both learned something about his new knife, failure of the knife in this circumstance wouldn't have shocked, shamed, or disappointed either of us.
 
Cliff
I am gld you answered my post finally.
This is my point exactly:
A basic set of testing standards should be established for each knife style and type. Cliff I trust about 8 opinions in the knife arena. Two metalurgists and testers I feel test a knife with the respect it deserves. Knifemaking is a passion. It is a labor of love for good makers. There is nothing that can be proven
buy destorying a work of art. I feel that knife folks should look for makers that have there designs tested buy testers that use knives for the intended purpose along with real feed back from there clients.

Les:
If a client wants to know the full destruction test results, a good maker should know what the knife and steel will take and have the data in writting to back it up if the claim is made. You are right to want to know the opposite extreme end tests. But I do not feel a knifemaker should be responsible for a knife that is misused for a purpose it was not intended. Your point about liner locks is a good one also. Do you think a newbie knife nut should see the testing of knives if it is bogus? Should they get the idea in there head that a knife should cut steel and concrete?


Cliff:
As for you pitting one maker against the other in your post above or recommending one over the other... many of the knifemakers who know there profession (and we talk) discount your intimidation and recomendations as HYPE to get free knives. I am one of them.

How can you determine what a person knows Cliff. Is thirty years of metal working enough for you Cliff?
I have reverse engineered and redesigned precision parts and componets all my life for fortune 100 companies to save them money because the design was BS. Mostly because the part or machine in question was designed by a person with NO REAL LIFE exposure to metals and heat treating.
Wonder how a guy with no degree that cant spell worth a crap can make decissions that a degreed engineer screwed up. I know how that happend.
wink.gif

Never judge a book by its cover. A diploma does not make you an expert. Knowledge does though.

Does Busse or others claim that there knives will chop concrete and steel. ?
I would like to see this in writting from them.
If I said one of my knives will chop concrete I have proof from my tests and folks that I send the knives to who said: yes DARREL IT WILL ....IN WRITTING. I dont BS about performance.
In the post above You are trying to make folks think I said these things CLIFF along with Tom and Jerry.
Please POST MY COMMENTS WHERE I SAID THESE THINGS. Your intimadation dont work on me Cliff sorry...Divide and conquer doesnt work either. I feel you take comments out of context for your own evil purpose. CYA at others expense.

Cliff said:
What about if you compare two similar knives from two different makers with radically different viewpoints?
Click to expand...
THAT is my point Cliff:
If a knifemaker says a knife is a fighter then it should meet or exceed basic standard tests for fighters. Your question can be answered by you alone. Every knife and maker have there own nuance.
Features up and above the standard can be a bonus. You and knife buyers have to make the decission as to what extra features they like about a makers knives that are above the test standard. Thats called having it your way.
It takes some thought as to your purpose for the knife.

To stop hype these standards should be put in writting as a check list for all of those makers that give a damn about people chopping steel with there knives. My point here is this: Because your automobile will go one hundred and twenty miles per hour do you drive it that fast? Hell no you dont. Its there if you need it though. Its an known security. Do you trust the maker who makes your knives? Will they do 120 miles per hour if you need it? Thats where reputation come into play.


It is great to get feedback from others who test knives and steels for my personal information data base. As Brian said above
I didnt post a damned thing about the tests or ask him to about what my knives will do. Why would I want to project that sort of image for a fighter? I care about the users life a in nasty situation, not my ego. It just sends the wrong message IMHO.


Who sets the standards? I feel it should be done by selected professionals within the knife industry. Also certain variables will have to be part of the deal.
I feel that makers and real life users should be selected for this task. I do not feel that folks who make techincal points about an element in a steel that is supposed to make it better will make the grade for this purpose. I have proved this point over and over and many others I know have also. Sometimes there is no explanation why steels and knives perform the way they do. This type of information cannot be gathered unless intent and standards are established by professionals.
The proof is in real life testing NOT desk chair testing and therory.

------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com



[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06-29-2000).]
 
Cliff, your quoting people out of context has become quite remarkable. Both Tom and I had these experiences and they were both noted at the time as unintended. It was NEVER expressed they we would or should expect a knife to tolerate such treatment. So stop the gamesmanship. You're very close to flagrant misrepresentation here!

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Darrel :

Does Busse or others claim that there knives will chop concrete and steel. ?
Click to expand...

The Strider guys have done demos at shows driving the blade into concrete, and chopping at steel tables and chairs. They also fully back such action, I know because I asked them before I started a review on one of their blades. It is not a high level of performance anyway, I have damaged blades much more extensively just on hardwood chopping (I use much mroe force doing that). For example at the low end of the ability range, I have chopped through mild steel bars (pounding with a log) with an Ontario machete. It is nothing serious, mild steel is really soft. I have also chopped up concrete (busted weight) with the same blade. The edge gets impacted which you can't see at arms length. The pressure is too low because the contact area is great, plus that type of concrete shatters easily. There was an interesting discussion about this in the general forum awhile ago. The same machete by the way lost large pieces out of its edge chopping on hardwoods (done before the steel an concrete chopping). The guys in the HI forum do this kind of work all the time. Similar is not uncommon with Busse knives, there was a report a short while ago about a heavy impact on a rock while chopping.

You are trying to make folks think I said these things CLIFF along with Tom and Jerry.
Click to expand...

The point was that makers that offer identical classes of blades can have radically different standards of performance. You stating one, Tom and Jerry another. You are being inconsistent in your claims though, you have metioned many times about chopping cinder blocks and similar as common tests that you use to show the abilities of a steel (3v) or a heat treat method (differential temper -> tougher edge) but now are describing it as unreasonable. For example, from :

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum54/HTML/001468.html

Tip twisting is fun .. throwing not a problem.

Chopped a few bricks.. minimal damage. hard wood and digging no problem .
Click to expand...

Do you trust the maker who makes your knives?
Click to expand...

Not until after I have used one of their knives to do whatever they state with the first blade. Most makers that I have worked with actually encourage first hand experience, including to failure, you take responsibility for this though if it is within the described performance of course. Not all makers are like this of course, some state performance levels and get quite upset if you try to verify them. That's not a really big problem though as you just don't work with them.

Jerry :

It was NEVER expressed they we would or should expect a knife to tolerate such treatment.
Click to expand...


Both of you used them as arguments for the abilities of your blades and are very specific about the fact that your blades can tolerate such stresses. In detail here is the comment you made on the steel chopping :

I don't recommend banging my blades against steel posts, but edge to edge impacts are a real consequence of blade combat, and the edge was designed to tolerate that event. Indeed, it is one of the best reasons to use CPM-3V in a tactical blade. It is incredibly tough. That the edge didn't roll tells me what I wanted to know.
Click to expand...

Tom has made similar styled comments about ATS-34 not being fragile because of the numerous hard impacts his blades have recieved. He also does similar things in regards to prying "You can't break a 1/4" steel ATS-34 knife by hand." Similar to your "I don't recommend .." comment he has qualified the prying comment with "I don't make prybars", of course all the qualifications allow as Steve noted is that you can promote to one level and back a much lower one. When Cold Steel does this most people on the forums don't have much respect for it (promotion with explicit warrenty voids) but many custom makers have no problem with it. I don't quite understand this, it seems to be the exact same thing to me.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I can't speak for Cold Steel, but if you are considering anecdotal and experiential comments as hype then you likely have a problem. The comments are honest. The innuendos and inferrences are of your own creation.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
Cliff
This will be my last post here . The reason is that Cliff you take my posts out of context and try to use them against me. Intimadation again. This is part of your MO. Still need your medication changed IMHO.

Here is the post.
This comment was about 3V

I have to agree with RJ on this one. am building fighters out of it. I love it. The specs say that the
impact resistance apoaches S7 .. Jackhammer tips are S7..
I have had great results with this steel.
Tip twisting is fun .. throwing not a problem.

Chopped a few bricks.. minimal damage.
hard wood and digging no problem .

Now days a Fighter has to be a chopper,
digger, wire cutter, with this crowd.
There purpose is one use! One time most often. It does that well also..:]
I made the protos from 52100 . The 3v hold an edge about the same as the diff tempered 52100 IMHO.

Cliff
I did the same tests with 52100 that I did with the 3v. The post was about steel not knives. I mentioned the style of knife because the folks who know knives know that fighters are to CUT FLESH. These are normal tests for my records and all of my straight knives. I feel it shows that I test knives to what I call extreme levels for my clients and use what I consider the best steels available. These are opinons of mine.
I prove them with tests.
I also said it is a one use knife. That was the part you missed Cliff . Fighters are build for defense. It is your normal practice to only see what and who you want to see Cliff. I did not say these are real life uses for the knife.
I said they (fighters) are a one use knife at the bottom of the page. That comment was put there for you CLIFF beacuse you do not know what "one use" means. Thats because you do not understand the different functions of knife types.


My point in that post was to expain the way I tested the steel cpm3v and 52100 . I dont think anyone got the impression that the fighter would be expected to perform this way in real life. Although I know mine will. I have the test results. So where was the hype about my knives that you are speaking about. I have to know what the steel I use will do. I enjoy testing knives Cliff. I guess its just your thought process that only see's what it wants to see.
These tests I performed are tests I perform on every one of my straight knives Cliff before they leave my shop. I rc check them to Cliff. I also do my own heat treating Cliff.
There was one more comment there Cliff.
You must have forgot it in your post above about my post.

CLIFF Here it is : There purpose is one use! One time most often. It does that well also..:]
That means for defense Cliff. That is my opinion of a fighter.

What I think happend here Cliff is that you missed the point of the post because you dont know what the purpose of a fighter is.

Folks that use these knives for defense knew.
Its slang Cliff.
Cliff Dont cut parts of my posts out for your little intimidation get together. The topic of the post was cpm 3v or something like that.
We were posting about the things we had found out about the steel . I made a few off the cuff comments but just one for you. I always put one quote in posts for you Cliff.
I also have my tests in writting Cliff. So say what you will.

The tests and demos performed by companies are most often with thicker stiffer knives that are designed for the purpose of entry, prying chopping ect.
There called tac tools, entery tools, and some call them choppers, survival ect. There is a big difference between a precision instrument and a tool designed for ultimate strength. I call them straight axe prybars.
Nothing wrong with them Cliff . Just not the same as a fighter.
Once again apples and oranges in my book.
This is why we need standards Cliff. Should a fighter be 3/8 of an inch thick?

Personal attacks between us is not going to make this standards project happen.. Then again maybe it will..

Cliff if you ever think I would GIVE you a knife your nuts. Your not worth my time.
I respect your ability to anal- ize but I do not respect your ability when it comes to the purpose and testing requirements for differnt styles of knives.
I have testers that perform tests for me and you are NOT one of them.
For what reason would I give you anything when you only see with blinders on. You cant even get the intent of a post that I do because of your EVIL personal agenda. I proved it in this post. Your trippin pal.... I dont dig up the things you say in posts . I dont have to . Your good at hanging yourself.

As for how my knives perform ...send money.
Ill provide you with my thoughts on the knife and its type and style. Ill build it to do all the extreme things (within reason) that you want for a price. Ill even fit it to your hands and provide you with test results.

Your comment about proof of what a knife can do is BS. You just want to be a knife sheriff. Come on face it.
Do you think folks can not see through" If I cant destroy it I pay for it". BS CLIFF
I feel you think knifemakers are dirt suckin morons with that comment. Look in the mirror.

Is it realistic to send a knife to a person with your agenda not in my world.

BYE
------------------
Web Site At www.darrelralph.com


[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06-30-2000).]
 
I have friends who have exposed their creation on a site. If someone want to buy a creation on the site they have the adress of the customer. The site is just here to put in relation them.
I agree with this point of view.
After all, the realization is one of our thing !
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top