SHTF rifle prerequisites

.410 .45LC was what I was thinking of. ok, so bad idea, Happens to me frequently. and I suppose one should not ask their gear to do too much all at once.
 
Not a bad idea at all. It's just that the execution leaves a little to be desired. The marketing types never tell us the bad points. :)
 
I think it'd be a good idea to choose chamberings that could be easily found or traded for.

Not much call for a .356 Belchfire Magnum in most parts of the country....

But .22 LR, 9mm, .40, .38 spl, .357 .45 acp, .223, 30-30, .270, .308, 30-06.........those you can find easily just about anywhere.

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I was reading up on the 45/70 today, now I want one. Lobbing lumps of lead out to up to 1000 yards would be pretty fun. I doubt I would ever hit anything, but it would add a whole new dynamic to shooting.
But in a SHTF situation I want something flat shooting but still has some punch.
Anyone know if there's much difference between .308 and 30-06? Does the powder burn faster in the shorter action .308?
 
.308 was created to allow a shorter action than the 30-06, yet with similar performance.

Long ago, the .308 was described to me as "a 30-06 that only goes 200 fps slower."

Powder is powder, regardless of the caliber. And it only stands to reason that a smaller case holds less than a larger case. The shorter action, tho, makes a difference, especially on semi or full auto rifles.

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David E said:
I think it'd be a good idea to choose chamberings that could be easily found or traded for.

Not much call for a .356 Belchfire Magnum in most parts of the country....

But .22 LR, 9mm, .40, .38 spl, .357 .45 acp, .223, 30-30, .270, .308, 30-06.........those you can find easily just about anywhere.

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I agree. I would only consider calibers that are found at kmart walmart etc,.
 
AR15 for sure. 14.5-16" barrel preferably. Accurate reliable lightweight system, lightweight ammo thats more then adequate for shooting man or beast with proper shot placement, good range, easy to find ammo, easy to find parts, easy to find mags, etc.


Ideally I think a .308 rifle would be nice, but when you factor in weapon weight and ammo weight I'm not sure if the trade off is worthwhile for most situations.
 
.410/.41/.22lr combi plus .41 single action revolver?
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I have to ask, are you riding the cowboy theme to the end (pun intended) or do you have a valid reason to go specifically single action? Pistols are prettymuch self-defence limited and with single action it's like taking a spear to an archery tournament. If you just liked the .41 mag, why not a Glock in 10mm (still not a great choice IMHO)? Why not a S&W in .357, a much more practical and common revolver that can also fire the common .38? I was with you on the dual caliber cowboy rifle a LITTLE, but the handgun choice just seems like a "romantic" choice me, a really rare exotic one.

I suppose the BEST SHTF rifle is the one that you can shoot the "best". I mean, Your uber full-auto, 75 round drum, Nightforce scoped, ultralite (I know, go with me here) Tyrannosaur .577 IS the bomb-diggity, but if the best you can do is 50MOA @100 yrds.then it's kinda useless eh?

Mine is the scout. It's scoped, I live in a 90% less then 300 yard range part of the country, and .223 is easy to obtain (and good on a wide variety of targets) ,the gun is easy to carry AND I can actually shoot the rifle and HIT THINGS.
 
shtf is latin for " if you stay, you die". leaving with a ruger m77 allweather in 338 win bag would be my choice.
 
I was asked to relay some of the pertinent information I learned at the Lever Action School I mentioned, so here goes....

We worked on body and head shots. Head shots at 25 yds were easy.

We went to 200 yds, and shot at steel pepper poppers. Keep in mind that we all were using PISTOL CALIBER leverguns. It was very difficult to hit them at this distance, but it could be done, once proper hold-over was established.

One dynamic that made itself painfully apparent was the "Buddy shoot." We paired up and shot multiple steel targets from the 50 yd line while using a car as cover. When one of us ran out, we called out to our partner. The partner would keep shooting his levergu until he ran out. If you weren't done reloading, he'd draw his sidearm and keep engaging steel until you popped back up, yelling "ready!" Then he'd get behind cover and reload his own levergun.... Fastest time won.

The main problems with the pistol caliber leverguns were the lack of range and the laboriously slow reloading. Compare both issues with an AR. The .223 hits within a 6" circle basically from 0 to 250 yds, requiring no hold-over whatsoever. A hit on a 200 yd popper is easy, even with the first shot. No need to discover "hold-over" with the AR.

Reload speed? First of all, you can shoot 3-6 times longer than any levergun BEFORE needing to reload. Then, when you do, you can reload another thirty rounds in 2-3 seconds.

But for general utility and purpose, the lever action will easily hold it's own out to 50-80 yds and for most of us, 5-10 shots would be more than enough to solve the situation......usually.

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Toxie said:
I have to ask, are you riding the cowboy theme to the end (pun intended) or do you have a valid reason to go specifically single action? Pistols are prettymuch self-defence limited and with single action it's like taking a spear to an archery tournament. If you just liked the .41 mag, why not a Glock in 10mm (still not a great choice IMHO)? Why not a S&W in .357, a much more practical and common revolver that can also fire the common .38? I was with you on the dual caliber cowboy rifle a LITTLE, but the handgun choice just seems like a "romantic" choice me, a really rare exotic one.
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Let me tall ya about my old man. He has been shootin for a while, retired Marine, retired ICE agent. He has been involved in bullseye pistol competition for nearly 40 years. He shoots in the top 200 at Camp Perry every year which aint to shabby if your familiar with the types of folks who shoot there (I've never broken into the top 200 yet so I can't talk any crap yet...). He owns many 1911's, beretta's, glocks ect..

My father's REAL love is slip shooting. He carries a beat up old ruger in .44 mag. It is the only gun he will carry for defense, if your familiar with slip guns it's basically a single action with no trigger.

His best times are alert to round on target at 15m in under half a second. His averages are .75 a second. His 2 and 3 round splits are in the 2 second range. I've had multiple experiences bird hunting and all he does is slip shoot them out of the sky. And he can still shoot a 50 gal drum at 200m slow fire.

My friend training is where it is at.

Its easy for us to dismiss certain tools as 'inferior'. If you saw that piece of junk in a holster it would be easy for you to think yourself maybe in a superior position. Against some guys though it could be a fatal mistake. Just food for thought.
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Sounds like fine shooting !

I'm curious about two things: How is the timing of his 1/2 second accomplished?

And I hope you meant his splits were POINT 2, (.2) seconds, not "two" seconds.

(for those that don't know, a "split" is the time between shots.)

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The timing is accomplished using a alert buzzer. I own one from dillon press....I can't think of the brand. It buzzes and 'listens' for your shot. Obviously as a slip shooter most shots are fired from position 1, 2, and 3 for speed. Position 4 shooting is obviously more accurate especially for a beginner who uses sights. (Don't look at me I am a firm believer in sights :) )

The splits are indeed 3 shots fired in a total of 2 seconds at 3 different targets 5m apart. Usually they are spaced at increasingly longer ranges and there is no set standard on how it is accomplished. Obviously only hits count.

It's fun to see but not super practical for the average joe. The amount of ammo my father has fired is ungodly in nearly 55 years of hobby slip shooting. The down side is my dad needs his gun. He could never pick up a glock and do the same thing.
 
Ok, you have a "shot timer." Maybe a CED or PACT, depending when he got it.

You are using the word "split" differently than everyone else I know. To us, a "split is the time between shots, not a total time for a string of shots.

For example, I shot a match once that only required 2 shots on a fairly close target. I was doing pretty well that day. First shot was at .58 with a "split" of .12 Total time was .70 (won that two shot stage, I might add!) Even used a practical holster.

I bet it's fun to see your Dad shoot. But you're right, he really should get better acquainted with other guns.

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I have an Old Marlin model 39A 22 leaver action rifle that my uncle left me and its short and seems to be a solid rifle. I would take it and a Sks and My Beretta 9mm or Colt 357.
 
Fieldtestornothing said:
My friend training is where it is at.

Its easy for us to dismiss certain tools as 'inferior'. If you saw that piece of junk in a holster it would be easy for you to think yourself maybe in a superior position. Against some guys though it could be a fatal mistake. Just food for thought.
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Your Father may be a world-class shot, which is fine with him. You'll see my "take what you shoot the best" post above.
That has little to do with the fact that if your father gets shot in the arm, breaks his hand or otherwise loses use of his other arm he's effectively useless. Or if he runs into several opponents who can put MULTIPLE times the force downrange that he can, because he can't reload as quickly. There are a lot more I could list, but don't have the time to :).

There are many people out there who are astounding with their weapon of choice. I'm sure that there is a crack shot out there right now with a cap-and-ball revolver still. That has little to do with, and is indesputable to the fact that nearly every modern handgun above .38 is superior to a cap-and-ball revolver in every meaningful way, especially in a SHTF situation. Same applies to your father's "slip" gun. Had he spent the same time training with a DIFFERENT gun, would the results be the same? Probably.

I have also done some IDPA and find that the other guy's definition of a split is more what I have had experience with the usage of the word myself. Maybe SASS is different?
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My father is no world class shot. Shooting in the top 200 at camp perry doesn't even make him a national competitor.

I don't pretend to be an expert.

My point is that tools matter, but training is much more important. I've been around gear queers my whole life, through deployments and competitions, and ect. None of them really ever impressed me with their skill.

Obviously I preach to my father about his gun choice. He tells me he can point shoot in the dark with accuracy. He's quick from the draw. the .44mag cartridge can penetrate light body armor, penetrates windows, car doors ect and still retains enough mass to kill. He likes that he has versitility to fire at long range. Can you tell him he's stupid? He's been around.

Frankly, it's what he likes. Not my choice.

Yes I use the term 'split' the same that you do. I was using it more commonly when saying 'splits'. As in the accumulation of time for all rounds fired. Maybe not a technical term :)

David E: Excellent times. My usual standard is 1 sec from the draw at 15 meters on a small IPSC target. Using my duty gear or from concealed carry it's not always that easy :)
 
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