SHTF rifle prerequisites

sodak said:
They must have gotten a WHOLE lot better than when I was in the military. After 4 years with an M16, you couldn't give me one. I have a very low opinion of them, always breaking down. But maybe they've improved the design, but they used to be *very* unreliable.
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I have to agree with Nemoaz on this one. I've been using the M4 since the mid 1990's...from Korea to South America to several places in the mid-east; it's survived several jumps, high humidity, freezing cold temperatures up near the Korean DMZ and plenty of dust and sand. My last tour to Iraq was pretty quiet and all my M4 saw was a lot of carrying, sand and range shooting. Regardless, that sandy, hot environment is hell on everything and the M4 peformed flawlessly for me.

Only two big improvements I would like to see (which would really make it a top pick for SHTF for most):

1. Piston upper (would really help in reliablility and easier maintenance)
2. A 6.8mm or 6.5mm upgraded caliber (a much better hunting round than .223).

Whatever your choice...it must be reliable and accurate.

ROCK6
 
SpookyPistolero said:
Have you ever had a chance to play with the HK piston upper, Rock?
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I've been able to handle it but no range time. It makes the front end a little heavier but I think it's a great trade off. I have a few FAL's and love that design...I love the M4 platform, but if you've ever shot some third-world dirty surplus ammo, it really makes a mess after a few hundred rounds with the direct impingement gas system; it's simple but can really foul the bolt housing area with dirty stuff. There are a few other systems other than the H&K (Adams Arms, KKF, POF, LWRC, ARES/Bushmaster, etc). I'm hoping prices will continue to drop as I'd like to try one out on my personal AR/M4gery.

For civilian use the current direct gas system is more than adequate. It's when you're pumping several hundred rounds out on full auto under extremely adverse conditions that would see the major advantage of the gas piston system.

ROCK6
 
ROCK6 said:
There are a few other systems other than the H&K (Adams Arms, KKF, POF, LWRC, ARES/Bushmaster, etc).
For civilian use the current direct gas system is more than adequate. It's when you're pumping several hundred rounds out on full auto under extremely adverse conditions that would see the major advantage of the gas piston system.
ROCK6
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So are you saying these designs have the gas piston system? Now you have me interested, I'm going to go and read up on them.
 
ROCK6 said:
I have to agree with Nemoaz on this one. I've been using the M4 since the mid 1990's...from Korea to South America to several places in the mid-east; it's survived several jumps, high humidity, freezing cold temperatures up near the Korean DMZ and plenty of dust and sand. My last tour to Iraq was pretty quiet and all my M4 saw was a lot of carrying, sand and range shooting. Regardless, that sandy, hot environment is hell on everything and the M4 peformed flawlessly for me.

Only two big improvements I would like to see (which would really make it a top pick for SHTF for most):

1. Piston upper (would really help in reliablility and easier maintenance)
2. A 6.8mm or 6.5mm upgraded caliber (a much better hunting round than .223).

Whatever your choice...it must be reliable and accurate.

ROCK6
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I have an evil black rifle (M-forgery) in 6.8SPC and prefer it, but I think I'd have to chose a 5.56 for a SHTF rifle, only because I could also pack the .22LR conversion kit. That effectively makes it two rifles by carrying about a half-pound of additional weight.

This thread is worse than the "choose one knife" threads that always pop up. :p

Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
desmobob said:
I have an evil black rifle (M-forgery) in 6.8SPC and prefer it, but I think I'd have to chose a 5.56 for a SHTF rifle, only because I could also pack the .22LR conversion kit. That effectively makes it two rifles by carrying about a half-pound of additional weight.

This thread is worse than the "choose one knife" threads that always pop up. :p

Stay sharp,
desmobob
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You're not kidding:D My Ciener .22 coversion is a great reason to keep the standard AR system...you're right, it's a great addition and mine is pretty accurate out to 20-30 yards..enough to drop a squirrel or rabbit.

ROCK6
 
ROCK6 said:
My Ciener .22 coversion is a great reason to keep the standard AR system...you're right, it's a great addition and mine is pretty accurate out to 20-30 yards..enough to drop a squirrel or rabbit.

ROCK6
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I was able to find an original Colt kit. I was impressed with its reliability and accuracy in my Colt 1:7 HBAR barrel.


To go back about a hundred years or so, I'd also consider carrying my Winchester Model 94 in 30/30. Handloaded ammo could provide light loads for small game use. Modern ammo makes it viable for big game at moderate distances. The rifle's weight and ammo capacity are nice.

Stay sharp,
desmobob
 
Very interesting thread so far. Obviously lots of thought and experience have come into play here.

For myself, where I live and the low possibility of natural disaster and political SHTF situations I'd feel really comfortable with the Winchester 94 and Ithaca 12 gauge pump my Grandfather left. Both are reliable, flexible and capable tools and I've put in enough time with each to feel reasonably comfortable with them. I'd love to have some time with some of the other firearms in this thread, but I'm feeling pretty well set with what I've got at my disposal.
 
Yeah, it's danged hard to beat a 12ga for a multi use defense and survival tool. I'd like to have a shorter barrel on mine, but it'll do what it needs to do when the time comes.
 
longbow50 said:
Yeah, it's danged hard to beat a 12ga for a multi use defense and survival tool. I'd like to have a shorter barrel on mine, but it'll do what it needs to do when the time comes.
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If you're already in your "spot" then fine. Or if you have a large vehicle and can bring plenty of ammo with you, fine.

BUT......if you are going to carry the ammo on foot for any distance, suddenly the ubiquitous 12 gauge loses it's luster.

When a mere 25 rounds weighs 2.5 lbs, it's not hard to see that carrying even 100 rds will get heavy fast.

For defense? Sure, it's great for the home where you probably won't need to reload at all, much less reload quickly. But in a SHTF scenario, suddenly, being able to reload quickly becomes more important. And where will you carry those bulky extra rounds, anyway?

Choosing a pump? Hope you have two hands available all the time.

12 gauge with 00 buck or slugs? I hope the wife or kid doesn't have to use it....

I like shotguns, but as a single SHTF long gun, I'll pick something else.

.
 
For me, I'd go for my Marlin 1894C in .357 Magnum to pair with my Ruger Blackhawk Convertible. The Marlin only weighs 6 pounds and I can weild it single handed if need be. Has a full length magazine and can hold 9 .357 mags or 10 .38 specials. The Carbine is simple and reliable. Handles ammo from 125 grain .38's up to the biggest factory .357 Mags (180 to 200 grain). And ammo is very common.

With more choises I'd take my Henry H001T .22 Rifle with me. With it's 20" octagon barrel it weighs in at 6.5 pounds but I sure can carry tons of ammo for it. Have a matching Ruger Single Six Convertible also. I'd have a friend carry those.

My SHTF gun would need to be reliable and take ammo that is readaly avaliable. My Lever guns and Single action revolvers are both!

Heber
 
Spider Ringo said:
I have both ARs and Mini-14,

The Ruger will wind up costing just as much as the ARs to be half as accurate. That said, if you are bugging in, you'll want high cap for defense of your supplies. If you're bugging out, you'll want a light weight bolt gun for hunting and long range defense. I'd also take a hi-cap auto pistol for CQC.[/QUOTE

Ar are pretty expensive to begin with, is the price difference close to 700 dollars? What in the world can you do for to a ruger that cost 700?
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I have a Marlin 1894c Carbine, 18.5" barrel, holds 9 shots and it is the same caliber as my smith m28 .357 mag. I can hit out to about 125 yards and with 180gr loads it will down anything in the lower 48. Hell with my handloaded 180's I wouldn't feel naked anywhere else either :-).
 
I took a lever action class with the local enforcement recently.

Two things were learned:

One, the lever action rifle is capable of much more than most people think.

Two, if you can grab an AR instead, grab it!

.
 
If you are talking about a bug out situation or a long duration of living off the land then my idea of a SHTF gun would be a very compact light .22lr. You can carry much more ammo and ammo would be as plentifully as possible. I would have no plans on getting into a fire fight and you could eat like a king with the game it would provide. A couple extra mags and plenty of ammo would be a must and a suppressor would be a plus.

For a protect your home from looters situation then a 12ga pump or semi auto would be king. It would also be a good companion for the .22lr in the above scenario but I wouldn't want to have to carry a ton of ammo.

A sidearm would be a preferable addition to either scenario. 9mm, 45 acp or 38 would all be good.

My last choice for either scenario would be a bolt action 308 but if possible it would be nice to have in addition to the .22 shotgun and sidearm. 30-06 270 223 would all be ok as well.
 
the single caliber pistol/ rifle combo worked for a great many settlers/ cattle punchers, and a great many of them lead less than peaceful lives, i like that idea, gives one options, and options are good. .410/.41/.22lr combi plus .41 single action revolver?
 
Ar are pretty expensive to begin with, is the price difference close to 700 dollars? What in the world can you do for to a ruger that cost 700?
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Mini's are 650 at Wally here. I just bought a new AR for 700 and some change. AR's have reliable and cheap high cap magazines. Minis, neither.
 
gadgetgeek said:
the single caliber pistol/ rifle combo worked for a great many settlers/ cattle punchers, and a great many of them lead less than peaceful lives, i like that idea, gives one options, and options are good. .410/.41/.22lr combi plus .41 single action revolver?
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I've never heard of a 410/41 combo. All I've ever seen are 45 (long) Colt/410. Something to do with the width of the chamber. And I've never been real impressed with the accuracy of the 45 LC being fired out of a 410, rifled or not. A rifled 410 wouldn't be worth much hunting. It would throw a donut pattern with very few pellets because 410 doesn't have many pellets. I have a 410, but wish it had an extra full choke. As it is with modified choke throwing very little lead, it's a pretty short range proposition.
 
nemoaz said:
I've never heard of a 410/41 combo. .
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That jumped out at me, too. Not to mention that finding .41 magnum ammo can be difficult to do on purpose....much less by chance.

Make sure your chosen gear actually WORKS before taking it afield!

Finding out that what you thought or read would work...........really doesn't work after the SHTF is a helluva bad time to be educated.

.
 
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