SHTF rifle prerequisites

[RMLamey]

My go to gun has always been an M14, but im thinking of seriously switching to a Marlin 45 70 guide gun.

Have one im modifying into a "packer" type rifle.

 

[yoz's friend]

do they still make the guide gun in .450 marlin?i was told that it was much more powerfull than the 45-70

 

[Unsub]

I imagine in places like where i live in northern sask or Alaska our biggest pain in the butt would be the hordes of city folks whos only plan for SHTF is to grab their guns and head for the country. I could imagine huge carnival cruise ships packed with refugees being dumped off in Anchorage.

I am not sure about Alaska but about 10 days after a collapse of services we are going to have an indian uprising.

Having one or 2 rifles is not going to be that important compared to having a decent well disciplined militia. Our snowmobile/Quad club has a couple ex military guys a couple hunters etc. We know the area and all have off road transport and can probably arm the few guys who don't at least have a deer rifle.

 

[Spider Ringo]

I have both ARs and Mini-14,

The Ruger will wind up costing just as much as the ARs to be half as accurate. That said, if you are bugging in, you'll want high cap for defense of your supplies. If you're bugging out, you'll want a light weight bolt gun for hunting and long range defense. I'd also take a hi-cap auto pistol for CQC.

 

[NoFair]

I think to many people get wrapped around the handle about their rifle choices. They compare the capabilities of a group of soldiers to that of one person with an assualt rifle. Especially during the 'engage multiple target' fantasies they have. If you are alone don't count on that AR to save your ass. You are not a fire team or squad and don't have the capabilities of one. Three good ol woods boys with single barrel shotguns at any resonable range with any reasonable skill would smoke you. Period. Unless your lucky. If you think any different then you need to attend some simmunition training and mix it up with other guys because you live in a fantasy world.

My training in the Military emphasized when operating in a small unit:
Fieldcraft
Marksmanship
Tactics

Those things still apply when alone but the dynamics change.

When operating as an individual:
E&E
Avoid contact
break contact

You do not want to attract attention. You do not want to mix it up with 4 or 5 guys. If you have to; cheat, lie, decieve and manuever to put fast accurate rounds on target. Pray that your marksmanship is good because your fieldcraft and tactics sucks.

I have almost 40 months cumulative in combat, 2/3 with the 2/325 82nd which doesn't quantify me as a expert by any means but honestly I think half of you live in a fantasy world regarding your capabilities against multiple opponents.

Don't get me started if you have your wife and 3 kiddies along.

Sorry if I sound like a ass I'm just having a bad day.

Being a former infantry man I agree with most of your points. A lot of survivalists have a romantic notion of fighting of hordes of bandits and taking care of their loved ones at the same time

E&E is not too difficult for a single well trained armed person. The problem arises after the escape or if one is living/travelling with wife, kids etc.

I'd probably try to get to our cabin in the mountains since it is in an area where most people know eachother and are pretty heavily armed
It is also so far away from main roads so odds are good that nobody would bother trying to loot the area..

The rifle would mainly be for hunting, but might come in handy against two legged ones as well..

 

[hannibal lecter spyderco]

Being a former infantry man I agree with most of your points. A lot of survivalists have a romantic notion of fighting of hordes of bandits and taking care of their loved ones at the same time

E&E is not too difficult for a single well trained armed person. The problem arises after the escape or if one is living/travelling with wife, kids etc.

I'd probably try to get to our cabin in the mountains since it is in an area where most people know eachother and are pretty heavily armed
It is also so far away from main roads so odds are good that nobody would bother trying to loot the area..

The rifle would mainly be for hunting, but might come in handy against two legged ones as well..

Only romantic if you haven't seen crowds of bandits, I've seen law and order go out of the window where mob mentality comes into play. I don't care who you are if you carry a little .22 against a mob mentality your asking for trouble. Mob mentality is just that they are in for a penny in for a pound. I've witness when the police have lost control, and its not a pretty site.

 

[Stainz]

Yes, I, too have witnessed mob control. There is nothing - except the experience of it - that can prepare you for it. Of course, I am speaking of the Friday AM after Thanksgiving opening of the doors at Wally World, or other such stores. Total loss of decorum. The humanity!

Seriously, the worst scenario my range friend's envision is an interruption of food delivery. They know I have canned & boxed stores - but it's my five inside-only cats they all mention, even though none of them would normally be found in a Chineese restaurunt - go figure. At any rate, here, again, is my SHTF home defense system, a 625 (.45 ACP) with 140 loaded moonclips, 105 of them - shown here - in a metal ammo can with the 625. I'm pretty fair with it out to 100yd, too. Easily carried - with lots of spare ammo - I'd just as soon have this as a rifle for any urban SHTF scenario I've considered.

RML - What do you need a .45-70 for - are crazed deer and squirrels that much larger on that side of Birmingham than they are on this side? Seriously, I guess a Guide Gun is about the only Marlin I still crave... I just don't know why... or what excuse to offer the CFO for my buying one. Maybe your rationale will help!

I will stay home on that Friday...

Stainz

 

[RMLamey]

Howdy, I like the 45-70 as you can hand load it down to sub sonic, sounds about like a car door slamming, and will still penetrate through a 4x4. Recoil on this load is about like a very mild .410, likely a bit LESS than that.

OR you can load it up to punch through and through both shoulders on a Cape Buffalo.

So, for me the .45-70 choice is versatility. I chose the Guide Gun, as it is compact, very well built, and any "weak" areas are known and easily remedied (the 2 piece extractor, easily replaced with a WW 1 piece).
There are some great parts made for the Guide Gun, Jim Brockman makes some sights that are extremely well made, tank tough, and affordable. WW guns makes the 1 peice extractor mentioned above, and an aluminum follower to replace the plastic one.

So, all in all its a good gun out of the box that can be turned into a brutally tough little gun for little $ and some time.

The 450 Marlin is a great round from what i gather, although ive not shot one. I see no advantage in it over the versatility of the 45-70 though.

Stainz, one pre requisit for a "go to" gun is that you NEVER know when or where your gonna need to "go to it", so best be prepared with enough gun

 

[nemoaz]

you drop an ar15 in mud or water i think you would be in a world of hurt.

Uh, no you won't. Now if you drop it in the drink, then drive around in the desert for a three weeks with all that sand blowing and don't clean it once, you may have problems. You're also probably serving in a National Guard transportation company under NCOs that should be court-martialed. See the Jessica Lynch ambush. PS clean or not ARs and M60s don't work without ammo.

Notice it is never the guys without combat time making these claims. It's always some goblin hunter who reads too much Guns and Ammo or internet crap.

Fieldtest, +1. Feet and knees together!

 

[sodak]

Howdy, I like the 45-70 as you can hand load it down to sub sonic, sounds about like a car door slamming, and will still penetrate through a 4x4. Recoil on this load is about like a very mild .410, likely a bit LESS than that.

OR you can load it up to punch through and through both shoulders on a Cape Buffalo.

So, for me the .45-70 choice is versatility. I chose the Guide Gun, as it is compact, very well built, and any "weak" areas are known and easily remedied (the 2 piece extractor, easily replaced with a WW 1 piece).
There are some great parts made for the Guide Gun, Jim Brockman makes some sights that are extremely well made, tank tough, and affordable. WW guns makes the 1 peice extractor mentioned above, and an aluminum follower to replace the plastic one.

So, all in all its a good gun out of the box that can be turned into a brutally tough little gun for little $ and some time.

The 450 Marlin is a great round from what i gather, although ive not shot one. I see no advantage in it over the versatility of the 45-70 though.

Stainz, one pre requisit for a "go to" gun is that you NEVER know when or where your gonna need to "go to it", so best be prepared with enough gun

Do you have a source for the subsonics? I'd like to try that!

Uh, no you won't. Now if you drop it in the drink, then drive around in the desert for a three weeks with all that sand blowing and don't clean it once, you may have problems. You're also probably serving in a National Guard transportation company under NCOs that should be court-martialed. See the Jessica Lynch ambush. PS clean or not ARs and M60s don't work without ammo.

Notice it is never the guys without combat time making these claims. It's always some goblin hunter who reads too much Guns and Ammo or internet crap.

Fieldtest, +1. Feet and knees together!

They must have gotten a WHOLE lot better than when I was in the military. After 4 years with an M16, you couldn't give me one. I have a very low opinion of them, always breaking down. But maybe they've improved the design, but they used to be *very* unreliable.

 

[fudo]

I agree with fieldtestornothing and gadgetgeek. To add though, unless you are the incredible hulk, you will probably have to beg, borrow, or steal ammo eventually. There is more .22, .223,.308,45acp and 12Ga. ammo around in the US than anything else, and Uncle Sugar has all of those types. So I would choose a .45 pistol, probably a 1911 for military compatibility, then you could go for a ..308/12Ga. combo rifle, and a Remington Mohawk 77 in .22. You should be able to buy/trade/whatever with practically anyone, except those deviants/terrorists with AK's.
My SHTF scenario is to go to a more secluded hide and not interact until I see something/someone official calling Ally,Ally out's in free!

 

[nemoaz]

They must have gotten a WHOLE lot better than when I was in the military. After 4 years with an M16, you couldn't give me one. I have a very low opinion of them, always breaking down. But maybe they've improved the design, but they used to be *very* unreliable.

Let me guess, a training rifle, mostly shot with blanks and the MILES system? (MTOE rifles are training rifles, btw.) I felt the same way when I was new to the military. Real service rifles were much better. Once a rifle gets out of spec, but isn't worthless, that is how it becomes a training rifle.

We've also learned a lot about the design since then, much of which was inspired by the First Gulf War. Drill sergeants were actually part of the problem, with all those qtip inspections and encouragement to keep the thing absolutely clean. In fact, it needs to be well-lubed, which won't pass inspection. The gun actually runs pretty well even after a 1000-2000 rounds, so long as you remember to occasionally lube the bolt, lugs, and rings. It can be done as simply as putting a few drops on the bolts and down the holes in the bolt carrier. A dry AR, even if spotlessly clean, may be unreliable.

New synthetic lubes are also a drastic improvement, but those would improve the functioning of any weapon.

As for water, watch closely next time you see a SEAL video on Discovery Channel or whatever. What are they carrying? M4s, except for one or two guys maybe on probably 90% of the missions. An M4 has no problem being dropped into water or mud. Or left in water for that matter. Same thing for Scuba trained SF ODA detachments. They carry M4s.

An Iraq, the AR vs. AK argument is pretty clear. Supposedly this would be an environment in which the AK excels. A squeemish miltary commander initiated an investigation because he feared his troops were executing Iraqis. So many were being found with a single shot to the head. It turned out that the Marines were hitting the only target that was presented. An AR with a modern military optic is capable of headshots/upper torso shots out to 300. An AK with that clunky trigger, 5-7 inch MOA accuracy, and those crude sights? Not even at a 100 yards is a headshot likely possible.

There is a reason that the AK47 is obsolete with the Russians. Their troops were demanding a flat-shooting rifle with optics that could compete with the M16 after they saw their disadvantage in the Afghan War. (What they got an Ak74, flat-shooting but still inaccurate.) Israelis can choose whatever they want. They had Fals, AKs (Galils), and could get M14s by the millions for free. To what did they upgrade? A modern M16 or M4.

That's not to say that I wouldn't welcome a piston arangement on the AR, but the rifle works pretty well as issued these days.

Fieldtest is STILL right. It doesn't really matter much.

Just my .02

 

[hannibal lecter spyderco]

Do you have a source for the subsonics? I'd like to try that!



They must have gotten a WHOLE lot better than when I was in the military. After 4 years with an M16, you couldn't give me one. I have a very low opinion of them, always breaking down. But maybe they've improved the design, but they used to be *very* unreliable.

They really haven't gotten that much better our troops still complain about having to clean them etc.. I still stand with dropping them in the mud and picking them don't expect them to go bang every single time. Nice gun too shoot, lots of moving parts, good accuracy down side is not as reliable as ak47.

 

[sodak]

Let me guess, a training rifle, mostly shot with blanks and the MILES system? (MTOE rifles are training rifles, btw.) I felt the same way when I was new to the military. Real service rifles were much better. Once a rifle gets out of spec, but isn't worthless, that is how it becomes a training rifle.

No, I saw the MILES system, but never got a chance to use it. I'm talking of running literally dozens of live fire ranges, large ones, every summer. We'd have to call a cease fire ever 10 or 20 minutes and send someone back to the armorer.

Again, I'm talking M16's. I haven't kept up with military weapons since then, I'll go and google M4 to see what it is. I'm glad that they are doing better, whether through learning or re-design. Our soldiers deserve the best, and it always annoyed me to have such a sub-standard weapon that they'd have to go to battle with. But I was in during one of the peacetime eras, so there was a LOT of wrong emphasis on training... War tends to keep the military focused on it's mission, peacetime allows all the BS to creep in....

 

[longbow50]

It has to reach out 100 yards accurately, low maintenance capabilities, high capacity, variety of ammo for differing situations, lite weight and ability to carry 500 rounds in the pack.

Marlin 981T, bolt action .22 short, long & long rifle. The tubular magazine holds 25 Short, 19 Long or 17 Long Rifle cartridges. The rifle weighs 6#.

 

[David E]

It's interesting how, for some people, the SHTF scenario begins with them in the woods hunting for small game....

Unless you're already there, how, exactly, will you safely make that trek ?

.

 

[Stainz]

I carried 1911s on watch - shot an M1 (USN Thompson) once. The 1911 round, the .45 ACP, can answer many diverse calls, especially, in my mind, from a revolver. There has been such a firearm from S&W since 1917 - and it couldn't care less about power level or bullet design. That fills a great need I perceive - ie, many roles of the SHTF 'rifle'. Realistically, 'sniping' at 100yd likely won't be necessary. Portability - concealment - ammo power - available reserves - these are important SHTF traits to me. Sure, a good .22LR bolt action can put squirrel, rabbit, grouse, etc, on the dinner plate. A couple of bricks won't way too much - or take up much space. In a true loss of order, and not just Black Friday, that bolt .22 will be of little practical use. Make my SHTF firearm a moonclip fed revolver - in .45 ACP. It will suffice for all perceived needs in protecting my refuge or home.

Stainz

PS I never shot an M14 or M16 while I was in the USN. I've shot - and owned - '03s and M1s - even SKSs - all gone now. Shot many an AR & AK, too. I'd rather buy more revolvers than either of those carbines.

 

[mudriver]

These are some of the silliest threads, but I can't help myself. Most weapons are chosen based on mission and SHTF has several very different scenarios (E&E, home defense, standard evac, hunting, etc.)

I'm guessing the 'best' option is likely a combo rifle/revolver in 357 mag. Why? Carry a pile of ammo, enough range and power, some rifles you can break down and conceal in a pack, and I heard some low velocity 38's out of these rifles are very quiet.

having said that - I have a lot of 9mm weapons and those are the most likely weapons we'd use.

One issue with AR's are they are very loud (with muzzle brakes)! When you shoot one, everyone will know where you are.

 

[Unsub]

The bad rep of the AR-15 based weapons is from the Veitnam era where they were told they did not have to be cleaned at all and no gear was provided. Also the modern versions are updated to keep dirt out of the chamber better. When you design a semi auto you can either have accuracy with high tolerances or the ability to function with dirt etc in the mechanism. Simply choose the weapon that suits your skill and needs. I am rather partial to the current Canadian set up of a C7 with an Elcan. It has the good M16 style non collapsing stock and is quite accurate. For soldiers who need something shorter they have the much shorter C8 rather than trying to get by with 1 rifle.

I like the US designated marksmen rifle as well. I bet they are a lot more useful in Afghanistan than Iraq.

For the few Russian units that need a more accurate rifle than the AK-74 they have the AN-94. I would love to check one out in person.

While i am not a huge fan of the Mini14 for some reason i really want a Mini 30. I guess the idea of an 800$ SKS just appeals to me for some sick reason.

If you are on a budget you could do a lot worse than a Mosin ,especially a m44. They are short and handy ,have the cheapest centrefire ammo there is. Are great hunting rifles especially for 65$.

The marlin 45-70 has a great rep with poachers so it must be quiet and handy. It would be a near perfect bear defence weapon. Would also ruin the day of some scumbag with bodyarmour.


I love the .45 revolver photo with all the clips.

However unless you are in the army and can`t use hollowpoints you might as well get a 9mm and save some cash on ammo.

 

[longbow50]

It's interesting how, for some people, the SHTF scenario begins with them in the woods hunting for small game....

Unless you're already there, how, exactly, will you safely make that trek ?

.

In my area, walking a mile gets me to huntable woods and open grassy hills with wooded drainage areas. Lots of opportunity to score squirrels to small deer. All shots can be made at under 100 yards and a .22 is relatively quiet, compared to the larger calibers.

Urban sniping is mostly going to be within that 100 yard range and a well placed HV .22lr round to the noggin, will put on a serious hurt and the .22 has been used successfully in such situations during wartime.

Lite weight caliber for firefights, but the object would be to stay away from serious fighting if such takes place.