Sick of hearing this!

Actually some of the formost knife experts preffer to work with small blades. Karambit fighters for one. You seem to have a very narrow view of knife fighting. The facts the DOJ release on knife fights do not show anything in relation to trained knife fighters (who often carry a gun as well). Knife fighting is a logistics problem, nothing else. You throw your camera and have fun running when they just raise there arm to block it. I will be much happier to know i can gut someone when they make sloppy stab forward. Could I get cut? Yes, so can you when deffending yourself with a camera. If the perp has a knife it is a knife fight and nothing will change that except you having a gun. (Read: not always legal) The simple fact is that most knife fights are between 2 untrained people often with one or both parties intoxicated on one or many substances. Often both end up with many lacerations and both are much worse for the ware. This does not change the fact a knife is a much better weapon than "anything" unless that "anything" is a fire axe, baseball bat or something suitable to actually use to kill someone. That is after all what self deffense truly comes down to. A person is trying to end your life and you may be able to stop them by doing the same. A knife properly deployed and stabed into an attacker will stop them (yes you may get blood on you, this is usually preferable to death). A camera is going to do what? Your oversimplification of "what knife experts recomend" shows you have not read much on the subject of knife fighting. I dont think thats a bad thing since there is alot of hype and a few good self deffense drills practied properly will prepare you well enough to deploy any weapon you might learn to use for SD. None the less many fighting styles are based around reasonable size blades as only an idiot thinks there going to be carrying a 14 inch bowie around town (unless like me you live in alaska where open carry is legal =) ). MOre poeple are killed with knives than cameras every year by such a high number you suggestion a knife doesnt work as a weapon is laughable at best. Sorry but it simple nonsense. The closer you are in armed combat (DOJ statistics will show you that most altercations happen within feet, so even in the average gun fight you are at arms length, ranged weapons only keep you far away from an attacker that is far away to start with and no one starts a mugging from 20 feet away.) the more likely you are to deffend yourself with a quick deploying weapon of some substanial stopping force. A bat must be swung, a camera, well thats just stupid. A knife can be drawn and used effectively and thats a simple fact. The first time somneone who was bieng beaten stabbed the attacker they proved it. Is it the best self deffense weapon ever created? No, a gun was. That hardley makes knives usless in a fight.
 
Good points. I appreciate the response. I've been reading about self defense for over 30 years in the popular knife press, before I joined and retired from the Reserves. My professional training started with IOBC 4-83, and my final tour was in GTMO as an MP in the wire. I don't believe I have a narrow view of knife self defense - I just believe it's not the best choice, even if firearms aren't included.

The first post questioned why so many people think knives are "absolutely lethal," to paraphrase an edited retort. That perception exists from the enthusiast market and juvenile male behavior which make it so, regardless of the truth that it is a poor choice. And so far, despite the opposition to the view, it keeps being admitted and agreed to by all the mature adults responding. That doesn't make box knife attacks on aircraft less effective, but the perception of lethality can influence decisions incorrectly.

Some resisted. How many more would have if knives weren't so glorified?

Let those who have ears listen - you are the weapon, the knife is a tool. There are better tools, as I have pointed out. That doesn't make me like knives less, or make them less than lethal; I am just asking for us to see things in the light of day, not perceptual darkness.
 
Knives are considered deadly weapons because they open you up causing blood and fluids to be lost. Cameras dont. Thus one makes a better weapon. I agree that the person is the weapon and that some companies like DO have taken there marketing to an unhealthy level both for image and the sake of truth. The point remains if 9/11 terrorists had slowly beat someone to death with a camera the other passengers may have felt safer rissing up against them. With a knife, unlike most impromtu weapons the lightest touch can dammage you to the point of a bleed out if it is in the right place. I guess if your post was only saying that they arent ideal weapons then I would have to agree with you. I just cant swallow that they are less usefull for SD than "most things". They certainly wouldnt be my first choice, but if my first choice fails, jams or is undeployable, I will be reaching for a knife. Like many have pointed out already many knife designs are crapy cutters and have little to no use as a tool outside stabbing someone. Is that a weapon, in my book yes. If you want to call it a tool, then it is still a tool for use as a weapon. Everyone knows its best to use a tool designed for the job your doing. I am sorry thay I underestimated your training. I must say that in 30 years of knife technique studies you must have coem across both instructors and techniques that didnt require a large blade at all. So to say that all knife fighting experts agree on a large bowie seems a stretch at best and using it to say a camera is a better weapon simply did'nt make sense to me. Stil this is all just talk and I think most peoples perception about both knives and guns comes from fear and has little to do with the real gun or knife communities. Forgive me for sounding arrogant in my earlier post, gun and knife rights are near to my heart and I hate to think the names of knives would even be a decissive point in peoples thoughts on such. However sheeple are sheeple and they would try and ban things that they think are "dangerous" regardless of names. Hell, some poeple cant even let there kid have a teletubby toy because its gibberish sounded very vaugley like "I want a gun". People like that wont be moved by how we wish to "potray ourselves". Some knife companies make kitchen cutlery and some make weapons, most make both. Ahhh semantics, how fun.
 
From tirod3:
Knives rate a poor third as a weapon, after guns and anything else. It is because we don't want to close with the enemy that we choose something else - something with reach - which few knives offer.
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I diagree.
Knives make very effective weapons.
This has been proven to be true for thousands and thousands of years.
I think the odds of stopping an attacker are much greater when using a knife rather than something like a digital camera in purse.
And we cannot forget...if you are truely being attacked, and you truely need to defend yourself, then "closing with the enemy" is a foregone conclusion.
Criminals don't attack people from long distance.

The first post questioned why so many people think knives are "absolutely lethal," to paraphrase an edited retort. That perception exists from the enthusiast market and juvenile male behavior which make it so, regardless of the truth that it is a poor choice.
Click to expand...
Knives ARE lethal.
I have seen plenty of folks in the ER where I work who have been stabbed and cut with knives.
Some survive and some don't.

You were an MP, right?
If someone attacked you with a knife, do you think that you would be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself?
 
I see all of my knives as weapons and tools. If I'm at work it's a tool; if I'm in other situations it my very well be a weapon. If a girl at the bar asks why I have a knife, it's a tool. If my co-workers asks why I have a knife, it's a tool. If I run into 3 guys late night on campus and they want to harm me, well, then it's a potential weapon. It makes no difference if I have a afck or a sak. Some knives are, infact, made as weapons (quite a few). Some knives are made as tools (even more). Most people know that either knife can perform either task. Unfortunately, most people also assume the worst and therefore if you have a knife they see a weapon. Luckily, most reasonable people can be explained to that "your" knife is a tool, if that's what it is. (This can be difficult if you slash up stacks of paper in the office you work in.) Some people don't think you should have a knife no matter what you see it as, or use it for. Over my knife carrying days I like to think I've enlightened some people to the fact that not everyone who has a knife is a bad guy and looking for trouble. I also would like to think that I've expressed to people that if your truly in trouble, having a knife might not be such a bad idea. I try not to freak people out with a knife I'm carrying, but if anyone questions my choice to have a knife, I will gladly explain why I do. People are all different, lots are even less than smart, but most will still listen to logic and reason. That's my take on it.
 
my last post was to give a different perspective to this discussion of weapons(or tools).
part of the problem i see here is that this is being viewed in the narrow spectrum of self defense. this is not what i am talking about. in my chosen path, i seek out and close with the enemy, to remove them as a threat. i do this with weapons, to include edged weapons. i'm not claiming them to be my primary weapons nor even near the top 10 (as if i had that many choices). however there is very little "defensive" to do with why i have any weapon, knives or other.
except for when i am off the clock out enjoying my firearms, knives, bows.. etc..
 
Knives are not "absolutely lethal," nor are firearms. The many wounded patients who survive prove that.

If I had to close with the enemy with deadly force, I would use the best tool at hand in the encounter. But once again we're cherry picking low probablilty examples to prove the broad spectrum solution. That is a narrow perspective, which contributes to the over-inflated view held by sheeple that knives are so lethal they can't be used in public.

The knife, overall, is a poor choice for self defense as a broad spectrum tool. It does not add much to the escalating "levels of force" options, since it is a last resort tool in the sequencing. It does not have high probability of stopping an attack, just prolonging it and introducing serious countermeasures from an already hyped protagonist who lives on the adrenaline, if not already high. Again, look in your emergency room where the survivors are waiting for treatment. I doubt they are stumbling over the stacks of piled dead bodies dumped from the trucks cleaning up after a gang fight. As in war, the wounded far outnumber the dead, which is the evidence that lethality is far less guaranteed that some make out.

Why promote knives as weapons and contribute to the same mindset that exists in Great Britain? I don't like the results there. I don't want them here.
 
tirod3 said:
The knife, overall, is a poor choice for self defense as a broad spectrum tool. It does not add much to the escalating "levels of force" options, since it is a last resort tool in the sequencing. It does not have high probability of stopping an attack, just prolonging it and introducing serious countermeasures from an already hyped protagonist who lives on the adrenaline, if not already high.

Why promote knives as weapons and contribute to the same mindset that exists in Great Britain? I don't like the results there. I don't want them here.
Click to expand...

I trimmed your post to those points I thought I would like to address....

I wouldn't necessarily agree that a knife is a poor choice for self defense. No one likes to get cut. Being cut is painful and leaves tremendously disfiguring damage, potentially, so only the most determined or impaired individuals will come on through a sharp weapon defense. All other facts being favorable to the defender, the offender will have to come to the knife-holder to be injured.

I would rather have someone attempt to take a knife away from me than a handgun. It is easier to take a handgun away, and I can't outrun a bullet if I lose control of my handgun. I might be able to outrun a knife blade.

I carry handguns for self-defense, but also knives. There may be a time when a defender cannot deploy a handgun without grave risk to others; in that situation, a knife would be a better choice. It is difficult to cut or stab someone accidently or at a distance, but a stray bullet is a dangerous thing.

I like the options having edged weapons and firearms can give me.

Andy
 
Knives are not "absolutely lethal," nor are firearms. The many wounded patients who survive prove that.
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I suppose we can agree that knives, while not lethal in every single instance of use against another human, are still lethal weapons.
One would never see knives listed under the category "Less than lethal weapons", right?

And since you forgot to answer this one, I'll ask again:

You were an MP, right?
If someone attacked you with a knife, do you think that you would be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself?
 
allenC said:
And since you forgot to answer this one, I'll ask again:

You were an MP, right?
If someone attacked you with a knife, do you think that you would be justified in using deadly force to defend yourself?
Click to expand...

I don't mean to butt into a discussion, but I'll answer that question for myself:

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Andy
 
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