Sir Snark-A-Lot

[Chameleonbear]

Tony Chachere's, horseradish powder, garlic, onion, salt (sea or pink), pepper (white, red, pink, or green), and sriaccha.

I have one blend called Pirate's Bite that is oh so yummy.

 

[Chameleonbear]

Tony Chachere's, horseradish powder, garlic, onion, salt (sea or pink), pepper (white, red, pink, or green), and sriaccha.

I have one blend called Pirate's Bite that is oh so yummy.

 

[daizee]

These are excellent observations. Perfection is the enemy of "good enough".

The problem with 'good enough' is that you will spend the money on the fancy steel and get a blade that will be crappier than the 1084 that cost $2.
You'll say "my knife is O1!" but it will perform like a railroad spike. At some point there are diminishing returns, but at the very least the modern steels need a controlled soak at their critical temperature for between 10 and 30 minutes without burning all the carbon out, reheating to grow the grain to visible size, etc..

Swords and knives were made throughout history with no electricity and fancy kilns... and no 440C, S35VN, O1, A2, or S3V.
You wanna use old-school techniques, then use old-school materials. They match. It's not just a style thing, it's a metallurgy thing.

(1066: I use an electric turkey roaster as a heated quench tank. it's lurvley)

 

[TBL]

GSOM, pictures were homer Simpson. Yes, the one I take shooting kids will be kids

Haha Jerry its so true

 

[TMHunt]

You can't DIY 440C, any stainless, or any decent tool steel (including O1) without a proper electric kiln ($600-$2000). Ought to have some quench plates too (easy enough to come by). And if you buy a kiln, there's no reason to start with 440C. Other stainless will give you far more for only a marginal increase in material cost. (I've never loved a 440C blade except 'Bruce'.)

You can DIY O1 in a 2-brick forge and canola, but you'll be wasting your money if you can't soak it at temp like a tool steel needs (kiln).

1084 for the home heat-treater unless you're going to invest in a proper kiln. You can treat it perfectly for pennies in equipment, AND it makes a fabulous knife. Even 1095 benefits from more control, and is riskier to treat than 1084 (more likely to crack).

Dammit, now you're making me think about bringing the forge to the gathering to get the bug outta y'all. Though pre-heated oil would be a tricky mess. I don't think that's gonna work out...

I think daizee said use animal fat... Lol.

For real though people were making and heat treating knives for hundreds of years... You can do it yourself... Lots of people still do..

Will it be as good as a professionally done place.. No.. But could you do it good enough to use a knife, yes.

We have the science and smarts to do things way better than they were done in the past, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to do it now. For your own knives you wanna use yourself go for it... Never anything wrong with learning.

People say you can't use this or do that all the time when rely they should be saying it's not the best way anymore but will still work.

All my opinions of course, but a million swords and knives throughout history were made with no electricity or fancy kilns.

I read this from both of you guys and I see the points that you both are trying to make. WW. I understand what your saying about knives and swords being made for hundreds of years before electricity. This is true but aside from what you see in the movies most of those where crap, with shitty heat treat. The Japanese had some good stuff only because they learned you could take different materials and mix them, but the chemical make up of steels is a ongoing learning experience and keeps getting better as we learn more.
It is possible I suppose to heat treat SOME steels a home with few materials but there is no way in hell you are going to get its full potential out of it. The statement holds true that granite said. There's good and then there's good enough. Good enough is something I have tried hard to eliminate from my vocabulary.
If you want to play with heat treat. Use 1084 or 1095. People claim 01 as well but not so much. Its not complicated to HT but it does require more specific control than the other two. Stainless steels in general are very complicated to ht and aren't the best material for a knife anyway. Large companies use it because its cheap and it has good corrosion resistance for the masses that aren't going to take care of there knives anyway.
At the end of the day remember this. Your gonna spend a lot of time and effort on hand making a knife. ALL of that time and effort is wasted if your ht treat is not right. Plus, if you ever get around to selling knives. The ht is whats going to stand out the most to the customer. Its the difference between a quality tool and a piece of useless crap that the maker wasted his time on.

Can you ever imagine a customer considering buying one of your knives and asking you about your ht process and you telling them. "Well, its good enough"........ think about it. There is NOTHING wrong with experimenting on your own stuff. But having "good enough" logic right out of the gate in your knife making adventure WILL make you develop bad habits.

I'll get off of my pedestal now. carry on.

 

[tradewater]

Cairo dry rib rub. Goes on or in almost everything. It's getting boring though, I need to mix up my own.


I love 1084. It makes a fine knife and I can HT it with pretty fair results. I have a full size kitchen stove in the shop. I preheat the quench pan on the top burners and the oven holds the temp steadier for tempering than a toaster oven. And...I can make bacon and eggs on top while I'm tempering.

 

[TMHunt]

You can't DIY 440C, any stainless, or any decent tool steel (including O1) without a proper electric kiln ($600-$2000). Ought to have some quench plates too (easy enough to come by). And if you buy a kiln, there's no reason to start with 440C. Other stainless will give you far more for only a marginal increase in material cost. (I've never loved a 440C blade except 'Bruce'.)

You can DIY O1 in a 2-brick forge and canola, but you'll be wasting your money if you can't soak it at temp like a tool steel needs (kiln).

1084 for the home heat-treater unless you're going to invest in a proper kiln. You can treat it perfectly for pennies in equipment, AND it makes a fabulous knife. Even 1095 benefits from more control, and is riskier to treat than 1084 (more likely to crack).

Dammit, now you're making me think about bringing the forge to the gathering to get the bug outta y'all. Though pre-heated oil would be a tricky mess. I don't think that's gonna work out...

Cairo dry rib rub. Goes on or in almost everything. It's getting boring though, I need to mix up my own.


I love 1084. It makes a fine knife and I can HT it with pretty fair results. I have a full size kitchen stove in the shop. I preheat the quench pan on the top burners and the oven holds the temp steadier for tempering than a toaster oven. And...I can make bacon and eggs on top while I'm tempering.

Lol, I bet that smells LOVELY.

Seriously though for you guys starting out making knives. I love your guy's enthusiasm, and I will support and help you guys anyway I can. I'm not speaking for them but id be willing to bet daizee and JT will too. Learning with little or no tools is the correct way to learn. Mainly because you make so many mistakes that way you learn how not to do it. But learn nontheless. As your skills grow, you buy a piece of equipment as you can afford it. Over time you become better and better equipment comes into your shop.

I dont care what anybody says. Knife making is not something you do great overnight, and you sure as hell are not going to make world class knives with habor freight tools and budget. Learning is one thing. Developing the skills and doing it correctly can take years. Thats part of what keeps me so interested in the craft. I'm still learning.

 

[Jerry D.]

Witchcraft! Witchcraft all of it, I say!

Now, sandwitchcraft.... No, Bacon sandwitchcraft! Now were talking.

 

[worldwood]

Todd, Grab a cold one and take off your boots.... this wont be short LMAO

Everything you said makes sense bud, I have no intention of heat treating my own stuff, never planned on it. I was just pointing out it can be done, its not the best way but i think its possible to HT in a 2 brick forge and have a knife that cuts.... will it be as good as what you do in your kiln or what PHT does... Of course not, but the knife could still cut stuff LOL.... People buy 10 dollar knives and use them for years.. They work good enough for some people... But for someone like me they would never be even adequate or acceptable. But even though the knives made in the past were no where near as good as the ones today, millions of shelters were constructed with those knives, and thousands of people were killed using those knives and swords made without electricity or fancy kilns. Did they break easier? of course they did, but they also served their purpose otherwise blacksmiths of the past would of stopped with the first one.

I never been the type where just just good enough was OK for my own personal stuff... I have been in search of the absolute best... even though i cant afford it, i strive for perfection in the knives i buy for the most part, and i started to want to make knives simply because i have so much more i want to test but cant afford to pay someone to make all my ideas. So a 2 brick forge wouldnt work for me... But that doesnt mean it might not work for someone else who is not planning on trying to chop the world in half in a single swing LMAO... I wouldnt buy a knife that was HT in a 2 brick forge, so i WONT make a knife and HT it in a 2 brick forge, but some people just want a knife that cuts decently enough. Thats not what im personally looking for at all.

Im quickly realizing i could of bought several great knives for the price of making 1 good knife. I was told it costs money to make money... But im not looking to make money in this, not now anyway, maybe one day, that day is not close though. Right now im looking to learn to make knives for myself, to be able to learn more about my passion for knives. To be able to test new designs and try and improve them and make stuff that cuts even better. I have been fortunate to be able to test some of what people call the best knives in the world. But there is always the possibility of improvement. I want to learn to be able to make those improvements. I dont think ill ever make the best knives out there... But Dan didnt think when he started that people would spend 5-6000 on a piece he made either, he started with hand files and a passion for blades. We all have to start at the bottom and let our passion and imagination drive us to get better and never stop pushing the boundaries for excellence. Its not reinventing the wheel... Its turning the wheel into a jet plane.

Im not a perfectionist really.... at least i never called myself that.... But i havent stopped working on the first little knife i made yet. Im still trying to make it better. I have had several comments from several makers saying it was good as a first knife... But all i see are the problems with it and just cant stop trying to fix the problems. Every time i pick it up i look at it and the problems with it bothers the hell out of me.... Ill never be happy with it. And ill really never be happy if i give up... I have to do it myself. I have learned more making that one crappy little knife than i have from watching a hundred youtube videos of people grinding knives.

Im starting with simple knives with simple designs using what i have because i know there is no way in hell i could make some of my ideas right out the gate, im going to screw up while learning... Thats part of it... So im starting with small designs with little difficulty until i can get them right the best i can before moving up to harder designs. I have said it could take me years until i make a knife im actually happy with, but if i dont start somewhere ill NEVER get to that point.

Its all a learning process and im happy to be learning.

 

[granitestateofmind]

So that's exactly what this guy was saying: your first knife is going to suck; don't spend money on exotic steel when there are inexpensive steels that are known quantities that are relatively easy to HT. Also don't waste your time with "mystery" steels (like leaf springs or files) because results aren't repeatable so you really aren't learning what works and/or doesn't.
What I meant by perfection being the enemy of good enough is that for beginners , you can miss out on a lot of learning by trying too hard not to make any mistakes. If you succeed in making a knife shaped piece of steel that cuts stuff on your first try and you have learned in the process, that's "good enough". Trust me, I'm more than a little AR when it comes to stuff like this, and I know how seeking perfection, especially if I don't have a solid skillset for the task, can slow me down or even bring me to a halt. I realize that all you excellent craftsman are bringing a wealth of information and years of experience to the table and I certainly appreciate it....but sometimes the best learning comes from one's own experience of totally effing things up. From the stories you've all told, I believe this is a universal experience. And if nothing else, we're learning.

 

[DunkEm]

Dunkem - I've been listening to Robert Earl Keen all night. Kinda like getting caught up with an old friend. Thanks!

I only came across his music two years ago, but his music does make him seem kind of like an old friend.

 

[ac700wildcat]

Morning folks! It looks like I actually have the weekend off from the farm I've been working at, which is definitely a good thing. Last week i rolled my ankle climbing down off a trailer and it has been getting really sore by the end of the day. Seems I may have done more than just sprain it.

Now to figure out what to do with a few days off. What's everyone's plans?

 

[worldwood]

.but sometimes the best learning comes from one's own experience of totally effing things up. From the stories you've all told, I believe this is a universal experience. And if nothing else, we're learning.

Yea... Like make sure the edge is pointing the right way before you take it across the belt LMAO!!!

I was on a roll, and right in the middle of grinding the bevels on i somehow wasnt paying enough attention and had edge side down and ran it across the belt.. I lost a nice amount of thickness on that one mistake as i had to bring the rest of the blade thinner to match up to the spine and even it out LOL.... I was cussing myself the entire time

Then i starting repeating this as i worked....

Up with the edge, down with the spine,
make a mistake, you'll have to regrind.

Morning folks! It looks like I actually have the weekend off from the farm I've been working at, which is definitely a good thing. Last week i rolled my ankle climbing down off a trailer and it has been getting really sore by the end of the day. Seems I may have done more than just sprain it.

Now to figure out what to do with a few days off. What's everyone's plans?

Just set up the table for the kids to do some arts and crafts. Im hoping that keeps them happy for more than 7 minutes and 33 seconds before they want to do something else LMAO

No real plans this weekend though. Just hanging out at home.

 

[DunkEm]

Sorry to hear about the ankle. Hope it's nothing very serious.

I'm probably going to head to the store, grab some fajita fixin's, fire up the grill, and turn on football. I've got a lazy Saturday and plan to make the most of my laziness.

 

[DunkEm]

Then i starting repeating this as i worked....

Up with the edge, down with the spine,
make a mistake, you'll have to regrind.



Just set up the table for the kids to do some arts and crafts. Im hoping that keeps them happy for more than 7 minutes and 33 seconds before they want to do something else LMAO

No real plans this weekend though. Just hanging out at home.

Love the rhyme!

If you haven't made the mini-crossbows with the kids, depending on age, you really should try it. They are awesome.

 

[daizee]

What I'm trying to say is that a 2-brick forge and a canola quench is EXACTLY what you need... for 1084. And you will likely have excellent results. Using fancy equipment for 1084 doesn't buy you more performance, and 1084 is great. Frankly, almost any decent forging steel can be heat-treated with simple equipment.

And it is exactly wrong for fancier steels, which are generally not forging steels, for metallurgical reasons. So if you're considering DIY heat-treat, which I whole-heartedly endorse for the right materials, use a steel that is appropriate for it. If you want to use fancier materials, do yourself a solid and find a buddy or a steel shop with a kiln.

As a beginner it's hard to justify making enough blades for a batch worthy of sending out to Peter's, though some people start this way. Personally I prefer to make an entire knife and learn (and from) the entire process. Then start another. Well I did... now I have like 15 things in the works at once, but the principle still applies...


NOW: we're crawling up the collapse scar of a submarine volcano. it's a bit slow going with only one camera platform, but we'll be back with the big boy in a couple days.

 

[worldwood]

Love the rhyme!

If you haven't made the mini-crossbows with the kids, depending on age, you really should try it. They are awesome.

Thats right.... Thanks for the reminder, I forgot about that little thing... Ill have to grab some stuff from the store but that will indeed make a fun cheap project to do with them.

Son is 5, daughter is 8... They will both love it.

And thanks bud, rhyming help me remember stuff.

 

[The Warrior]

Morning folks! It looks like I actually have the weekend off from the farm I've been working at, which is definitely a good thing. Last week i rolled my ankle climbing down off a trailer and it has been getting really sore by the end of the day. Seems I may have done more than just sprain it.

Now to figure out what to do with a few days off. What's everyone's plans?

Sprains suck. Been awhile since I had one, but they're no fun.

Wife and I are heading to the cabin for an over nighter. Sucks that she has to work on Saturdays, otherwise, it would have been a weekender.

 

[TMHunt]

WW and granite. Both of you well said. I get it. Sometimes us guys that have been doing this a while get a little over excited and probably spew from the mouth a little more than they/I should. Fact is. There's a lot of fine craftsman out there in the world of knife making. Unfortunately, there some real train wrecks out there to that push junk and there silver tongues for the sake of there own wallet. Those train wrecks make us guys that are trying to do this honestly and produce the best produce we can look bad.

I think part of it for us is since you guys express interest in the craft. We just want to give you a little guidance so we don't have to deal with a future train wreck. ........kinda like not wanting your daughter to date a jerk. Lol. Carry on fellers!

 

[TMHunt]

Hey daizee, you still using the goop quench method? SNARK!