Slippie vs modern - steel

A

akaMatt

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I have spent some time over on the General forum, and over there all the talk is about their folders being made of the latest and greatest frames and super steels (VG10, CPMxxx, etc). I come over to this forum and everybody loves their folders in 1095, CV, 4xx...

All the knives I have are in the more traditional stainless or 1095 category, so I have no experience with the super steels. Just curious why there isn't a similar movement among the slip joint crowd. Is that just a lot of bravado on the other board, do those type of knives benefit somehow from more modern steels, or is it just that "traditional" knives continue to use the traditional steels?
 
Well, you pretty much only get to choose from whatever the manufacturers use. And in traditional-style slipjoints, that's typically 1095 carbon and similar, 420HC, 440A/C, and some in D2.

What I use a pocket knife for is handled pretty well by 420HC/1095 so it really doesn't matter that much to me.
 
jc57 said:
Well, you pretty much only get to choose from whatever the manufacturers use. And in traditional-style slipjoints, that's typically 1095 carbon and similar, 420HC, 440A/C, and some in D2.

What I use a pocket knife for is handled pretty well by 420HC/1095 so it really doesn't matter that much to me.
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Agreed, I have no issue with 420/440/1095, they cut everything I need to cut just fine. It was more of a question why those seem to be considered low grade or inferior steels with the modern crowd (not so much 1095, maybe).
 
I don't really know. I suppose if I had a regular need in my work or recreational use to really use a pocket knife a lot for cutting things, then I would have a better idea of what I really needed. Edge retention, toughness, hardness, ability to hold an acute edge, ease/speed of sharpening vs. time between sharpenings vs. time spent sharpening vs. cost of sharpening equipment.

So I am guessing some of those folks use their knives enough to know what they need, and why they need it.

There are probably also some people who like to own a car with a top speed of 160, even though they may never exceed 80 MPH in normal use. Or they feel that if a knife costs $200, it better not come with "cheap" steel even if their uses will never exceed the capabilities of the cheap steel. Same with the car analogy.
 
jc57 said:
I don't really know. I suppose if I had a regular need in my work or recreational use to really use a pocket knife a lot for cutting things, then I would have a better idea of what I really needed. Edge retention, toughness, hardness, ability to hold an acute edge, ease/speed of sharpening vs. time between sharpenings vs. time spent sharpening vs. cost of sharpening equipment.

So I am guessing some of those folks use their knives enough to know what they need, and why they need it.

There are probably also some people who like to own a car with a top speed of 160, even though they may never exceed 80 MPH in normal use. Or they feel that if a knife costs $200, it better not come with "cheap" steel even if their uses will never exceed the capabilities of the cheap steel. Same with the car analogy.
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Good points all around! Quite sure I'm guilty of some of the same [holds expensive phone in hand only used for texting and surfing ;)]
 
It's cheaper to work (a lot easier on the machinery) with simple carbons and lower grade stainless steels than higher end steels. A lot of guys have nostalgic views concerning traditional steels, but a small upgrade in steel (even carbon) wouldn't hurt. In the long run I guess it's all about cost and what the market dictates. There's a thriving custom slip joint market, there's a reason these makers can't keep up with demand.
 
oldtymer said:
I would think it's a pretty safe bet that all the Marines that carried the K-Bar in lowly 1095 steel did not feel the knife inferior in any way
during WW2.
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Your right, and if my life depended on a 1095 blade, I would also want it in a fixed blade like they had.

If it is in a folder with a thin blade, like the majority of the companies make, we can adjust the alloys a bit...

I guess this is why I like the Euro-Barlow so much. A modern alloy with quality modern materials while being Definitely a Barlow.
Aside from my making mine a Bare head by changing the slabs.
 
akaMatt said:
I have spent some time over on the General forum, and over there all the talk is about their folders being made of the latest and greatest frames and super steels (VG10, CPMxxx, etc). I come over to this forum and everybody loves their folders in 1095, CV, 4xx...

All the knives I have are in the more traditional stainless or 1095 category, so I have no experience with the super steels. Just curious why there isn't a similar movement among the slip joint crowd. Is that just a lot of bravado on the other board, do those type of knives benefit somehow from more modern steels, or is it just that "traditional" knives continue to use the traditional steels?
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Actually there are more then a few posters in the traditional forum that like higher end blade steels, and would like to see more slip joints made with them. There is also a large number of folks that like 1095 and the other carbon steels. No right or wrong. It's all what you like or what you feel you need.
There are some slip joint manufacturers using the CPM steels and VG-10 etc. You're likely to pay more and have to look harder for them, but they're out there.
 
Thanks guys!

I hope my initial question wasn't taken as my taking any side in the matter. I understand that some materials are better than others for certain tasks, and wasn't questioning the need for such steels, or for anyone to prefer them. It is just a different vibe over there, and I was curious if the demands of the different kinds of knives (larger, AO, etc) necessitated different materials. Sounds like there are those options available across the board in a lot of cases, maybe just more prevalent in the modern market.
 
95% of my knives are traditionals with "lower end" steels like 420/440 stainless or 1095. They work fine for the chores required of them. When I go afield with a larger fixed blade, I carry higher end, higher alloyed and higher hardness steels. They allow me to do a larger amount of work over a longer period of time without resharpening the edges. They hold an edge even against abrasive materials (wet dirty hide and bone) many times longer than traditional steels at 56-59 HRc.
 
For me, 'Traditional' is all about simplicity and worry-free maintenance, no matter where one happens to be or what tools might be at hand for maintaining them. That's what I like about Traditional knives, most of which will fall into that 'slippie' category. More modern steels can be impressive in some respects. But, I've noticed I tend not to carry the modern-steeled knives as often as a Traditional in simpler steel (1095, CV, 420HC, etc), simply because there's that much less to be worried or distracted about, if I find myself needing to repair a damaged or dull edge. With a 'supersteel' knife, that may be a problem in some situations, if I don't have a diamond hone, or at least a SiC stone available. With a knife in 1095, CV or 420HC, I KNOW I'll be able to find something to handle it, even with something as basic as a stone on the ground. I've done exactly this, just to prove the point to myself, and it really instills confidence in those 'inferior' simple steels. That's worth a lot.

I haven't written off the more modern steels though. Just so happens, lately I've been giving my Queen Cattle King Stockman some time in the pocket, in D2. But I do all of the touching up of that one at home, with tools capable of doing the best job with it, and none of which are likely to be found laying on the ground, unless some other unfortunate knife nut lost it there. ;)


David
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
For me, 'Traditional' is all about simplicity and worry-free maintenance, no matter where one happens to be or what tools might be at hand for maintaining them. That's what I like about Traditional knives, most of which will fall into that 'slippie' category. More modern steels can be impressive in some respects. But, I've noticed I tend not to carry the modern-steeled knives as often as a Traditional in simpler steel (1095, CV, 420HC, etc), simply because there's that much less to be worried or distracted about, if I find myself needing to repair a damaged or dull edge. With a 'supersteel' knife, that may be a problem in some situations, if I don't have a diamond hone, or at least a SiC stone available. With a knife in 1095, CV or 420HC, I KNOW I'll be able to find something to handle it, even with something as basic as a stone on the ground. I've done exactly this, just to prove the point to myself, and it really instills confidence in those 'inferior' simple steels. That's worth a lot.

I haven't written off the more modern steels though. Just so happens, lately I've been giving my Queen Cattle King Stockman some time in the pocket, in D2. But I do all of the touching up of that one at home, with tools capable of doing the best job with it, and none of which are likely to be found laying on the ground, unless some other unfortunate knife nut lost it there. ;)


David
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I can understand this way of looking at it.

Personally, I always have two DMT Diafolds in the car, and if I am going on a hike, I will put my coarse/fine DMT Diafold in my kit or pocket. It is light enough to not notice, but invaluable once needed.
 
I think that the reason for the simpler steels in slipjoints is an economic one. A slipjoint is a more complicated knife to make than most modern folders, and the cost is tied up in that process. Several of the more popular manufacturers around these forums are working with machines that are quite old, and making the switch to modern steels would involve upgrading that machinery.

If you're selling knives as fast as you can make them on old equipment with simple steels there's not too much incentive to invest in expensive new equipment just so that you can say that you use a fancier steel. In turn, the people that collect and use those knives are going to naturally develop an affinity to those simpler steels. I suspect that if GEC came out tomorrow and said that they're going to switch to exclusively using Mexamet steel many people in this subforum would suddenly fall in love with Mexamet steel. ;)
 
Cory Hess said:
I think that the reason for the simpler steels in slipjoints is an economic one. A slipjoint is a more complicated knife to make than most modern folders, and the cost is tied up in that process. Several of the more popular manufacturers around these forums are working with machines that are quite old, and making the switch to modern steels would involve upgrading that machinery.

If you're selling knives as fast as you can make them on old equipment with simple steels there's not too much incentive to invest in expensive new equipment just so that you can say that you use a fancier steel. In turn, the people that collect and use those knives are going to naturally develop an affinity to those simpler steels. I suspect that if GEC came out tomorrow and said that they're going to switch to exclusively using Mexamet steel many people in this subforum would suddenly fall in love with Mexamet steel. ;)
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I'm already in love with Maxamet. You stick it in a Saddlehorn, Sod/Bullbuster or a Sowbelly and run it to 67ish hrc, We are in business!
 
akaMatt said:
Just curious why there isn't a similar movement among the slip joint crowd.
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'Better' is the enemy of 'good enough'

1095 and 420HC are good enough for what most of us do with a traditional pocket knife. So there is no major push for using alloys with higher performance. When I foresee having a major cutting chore amongst the day's activities, I pull out one of my modern folders.
 
I'll start by saying I love my 1095 traditionals. Once a patina develops, I don't worry about rust at all. But I also like modern steels, love my Enigma knives Classic in US2000 ,(essentially Cruwear from what I could find on it, correct me if I'm wrong) and I'm waiting on a custom in M4. I've got a couple in stainless but again no issue with "old school" steel or modern. Just got a Trestle Pine in S30v. If you look around you'll find makers, custom and production using just about any steel you'll find on modern style folders, albeit not as often. I think for many, traditional steels and traditional knives as well as handle materials just belong together so if that's what the market wants, that's what is going to be made. I like that Lionsteel and Collector knives are experimenting with modern steel and covers and I'm curious to see what effect it has in the traditional knife world...
 
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