Slippie vs modern - steel

This is a guess but I think a lot has to do with the workability of the steel since many traditionals have multiple blades that means a lot of labor making the blade. The ones I've seen in modern steels cost a good bit more than the easier to work with steels.

I think most has to do with the limited market for traditionals and the need to get market share of that limited market. I also think most people getting traditionals are as concerned about fit and finish, maybe even considering it more important than materials choice. I know I've had a few knives with good steel but the F&F was not great and it ruined the knife for me, especially in regards to spring tension, where some cheap materialed knives with good F&F get the pocket time because they're a pleasure to use.

Lastly, I don't think you'll find as much need for a hard use metal on a traditional as they tend to not be used as hard. Obviously that's not always the case but my perception of those that carry slippies is usually more for EDC purposes and not processing a dear, a lot of cardboard, or things like that. I've found that most of the traditionals I've tried create hot spots so extended or hard uses didn't work so well unless the cutting media was softer, like food (really like mulit-blade slippies for food).

Most of my perceptions do not include single blade traditionals as I think they could really benefit and be more routinely used for hard use. I do consider traditional flavored lockbacks into the category, even though I go traditional only for mulit-blade and modern for single blade because I want one-hand operation if going single blade.
 
I'll chime in here by saying that the traditional knife market is entirely different than the modern knife market.

Most fans of traditional knives have a sense of the history of the traditional knife. As such, we value that historical aspect along with an appreciation of a nice design, a high level of hand craftsmanship, a vast array of natural handle materials, the smoothness and snap of a well tuned knife among many other things. Steel is just small percentage of the overall experience.

I feel that a large part of the modern knife market has more to do with being the biggest, baddest, bestest you can be. Hard to say you're the best if you are not using the latest steel. Image and hype are much more important in the modern knife market than traditional.

While I buy knives from both segments, I'm the first to admit my selection criteria differ somewhat depending on what I'm buying. I am much more performance oriented on my moderns, more aesthetics on my traditionals.
 
akaMatt said:
I have spent some time over on the General forum, and over there all the talk is about their folders being made of the latest and greatest frames and super steels (VG10, CPMxxx, etc). I come over to this forum and everybody loves their folders in 1095, CV, 4xx...

All the knives I have are in the more traditional stainless or 1095 category, so I have no experience with the super steels. Just curious why there isn't a similar movement among the slip joint crowd. Is that just a lot of bravado on the other board, do those type of knives benefit somehow from more modern steels, or is it just that "traditional" knives continue to use the traditional steels?
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I think most of the whole latest and greatest thing is just marketing.
I have learned that while many here on the porch do care about super steels, they have no problem buying knives in simpler old school steels because there knife usage can be fulfilled just fine with these.
They can appreciate the less frequent sharpening, but also love the very quick sharpening time of the old school steels.

Personally I really only care whether my blade is carbon or stainless, if my blade is easy to sharpen and can still cut pretty well at the end of the week I'm happy. I have no desires to spend more on a knife just because that one week of use before sharpening turns into 3.
 
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IMG_0053.JPG If GEC heat treat of 1095 is 58 and a ten year old CRK s30 is 58 would the two stay sharp with use for the same amount of time? In theory? I'm not speaking of edge bevel, grind, or thickness. Would a regular joe like myself with a keen eye for tight sweaters be able to tell a difference?

Obligatory knife pic
 
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Hardness number is only part of the story of edge retention. High carbide alloys will hold an edge longer than simple carbon steels even at a lower HRc number.
 
It depends on how you use your knives and what you are cutting. I know the way I use mine, I'd be able to tell the difference, probably within a few minutes on the job. The vanadium carbides in S30V will let it hold an edge better when cutting abrasive stuff (like I frequently do). For the average Joe who considers opening an extra envelope a big day for his knife, no.

I have a foot in either camp, myself. I appreciate the history and versatility of traditional knives, and I love the geometry of the blades. On the other hand, I use my knives a lot, often for things like drywall repair, and I love the long-lasting sharpness of modern high-carbide steels. If I win the lottery I'm going to see if I can con some poor unsuspecting maker into combining the two.
 
I have a Trestle Pines Grand Portage, basically a Barlow with a screwdriver/caplifter. The main blade is CPM 154. This has been my main carry for awhile. I think it's a great knife. The one downside is it took awhile for me to figure out how to sharpen but once I figured it out it isn't bad at all to sharpen freehand.
It does take more effort to sharpen the Cpm 154 than whatever Victorinox, Case or Buck's 420 hc and for that, I wouldn't take a premium steel knife on any outdoor adventures.
With my other knives, if I lose my edge I can get back a decent edge with any relatively smooth rock off the ground. That's important to me. If I have a premium steel knife and accidently bang the edge against a rock or whatever and wasted the edge, I'm SOL unless I pack a sharpener, which I never do and don't want to.
It all comes down to ease of sharpening as far as going into situations where I may be dependant on my knife.
 
For the kind of cutting that I do a traditional with 4XX steel works just fine, and I appreciate how easy it is to bring the edge back to spec. For traveling I carry a Vic pocket ceramic rod, a Vic or Opinel mini-steel, and a piece of leather with compound on it, and I feel as if I have everything I need to maintain my knives while away from home for an extended period (usually carrying a couple of SAKs, a stockman, and maybe a trapper). If I'm really worried about messing up an edge I can throw in a small, fine EZ-LAP diamond stone just in case.
I don't know if my sharpening skills would be able to deal with any of the modern "super" steels anyway. :p
 
I'm guilty of wanting modern stainless steel in a traditional format:oops: the added edge retention is nice, but mainly they don't make my apples taste funny;)

I've got a number of production traditionals in D2, 154cm and M390...but my EDC is this Ohta whittler in ZDP-189/ATS-34:D



~Chip
 
I'd appreciate a traditional knife in some modern steel but I wouldn't want to have them replace the classic steel altogether.
I'm thinking that sharpening less could be a pretty nice thing actually, especially on some of the small secondary blades and would make whittling sessions go even longer without stropping.
 
WValtakis said:
I'm guilty of wanting modern stainless steel in a traditional format:oops: the added edge retention is nice, but mainly they don't make my apples taste funny;)

I've got a number of production traditionals in D2, 154cm and M390...but my EDC is this Ohta whittler in ZDP-189/ATS-34:D



~Chip
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That's a sweet looking knife, Chip! I might have to take a look at those sometime in the future!

By the way, interesting discussion from all in this thread, thanks everyone for your comments, it's very insightful!
 
akaMatt said:
That's a sweet looking knife, Chip! I might have to take a look at those sometime in the future!

By the way, interesting discussion from all in this thread, thanks everyone for your comments, it's very insightful!
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Thanks, here's the thread about it: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...r-zdp-189-ats-34-and-desert-ironwood.1359566/

One thing I've found with all the Queen made knives I've gotten is they're ground pretty thick. The D2 has been a bear to thin down but well worth doing, thankfully this Tuna Valley in 154cm thinned out pretty easily on the Atoma 140. Took it from almost .040" behind the edge bevel to .005" :D
Screenshot_20170819-214914.png

~Chip
 
akaMatt said:
I have spent some time over on the General forum, and over there all the talk is about their folders being made of the latest and greatest frames and super steels (VG10, CPMxxx, etc). ... Just curious why there isn't a similar movement among the slip joint crowd.
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I'm not terribly impressed with thick blades, pocket-clips, multi-directionally textured scales, tanto points, serrations, flippers, axis locks, assisted openers, phospor bronze bushings or jimping ............ why would I be impressed with super wonder steels?

-- Mark
 
akaMatt said:
Just curious why there isn't a similar movement among the slip joint crowd.
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its the way we think. traditional pocket knife are for cutting an apple while using the same blade to clean fish and clean the gunk old the battery terminals of our old truck so it just might start this time. wouldn't think of using high $ knife even super steel this way. by the way still using the same knife that i bought in the early 70's cheep steal and all.
 
mnblade said:
I'm not terribly impressed with thick blades, pocket-clips, multi-directionally textured scales, tanto points, serrations, flippers, axis locks, assisted openers, phospor bronze bushings or jimping ............ why would I be impressed with super wonder steels?

-- Mark
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Well I think the first thing to do is separate the features into those that are cosmetic and those that are functional.

For me the steel type is always a function feature. Since I"m a form follows function person it's something in the pro side.
 
A lot of discussion here suggests that hard use of a knife is a theoretical thing :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

Many thousands of people pick up a knife in the morning when they arrive at work and put it down when they leave.
I used to be one.

That is your supply of empirical data to support assessments of steel qualities.

The upshot is that most knives are made in mass produced ordinary steel. This is (unfortunately for some) all that is expected of a knife that is used in the real world.

Conversely, most specialist steels are found on knives that live in display cases or in emergency kits. Nothing wrong with that, except that it generates a lot of needless arguments comparing two very different needs. Most people don't seem willing to recognise that 'its better steel than it needs to be but I am prepared to pay extra to have higher quality'.
 
I cut a lot of cardboard at work. After just a couple of days, I can tell the difference in edge retention between either 1095 or 420HC, and Queen's D2. The D2 is noticeably better, but it's nowhere near a "super steel" anymore. Powdered steels like CPM-S90V and S110V will hold an edge many, many times longer than D2. Yes, you need good stones, preferably diamond, to put an edge on one, but they are relatively easy to maintain an edge on. And you end up doing it so seldom, that it is really no chore at all.
 
I'm in the camp who wants better steel in traditional style knives. I don't do a high volume of cutting often, but when I do, I like for the edge to stay as sharp as it can as long as it can, because it's just easier to cut with a sharp knife. Even GEC's 440C has gotten dull enough on me in a sitting, that it required a lot more effort to cut and was doing almost as much tearing as cutting. The Lionsteel Barlow is cool. The Enigma Classics are also cool when those pop up.

If I did that kind of cutting every day, though, I might have a different tool. Slicing cardboard is a little precarious with a slip joint anyhow. Thick ply cardboard will bind the blade, and the handle will fold if you're not careful.
 
Camillus said:
Most people don't seem willing to recognise that 'its better steel than it needs to be but I am prepared to pay extra to have higher quality'.
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Bingo. Years ago I did all my cutting with a little Camillus-made Buck 303 stockman. I carried it daily for over 10 years.
Did it cut everything I needed it to cut? Yes.
Would I have opted for higher performing steel so it did not need to be sharpened as frequently? YES.

black mamba said:
I cut a lot of cardboard at work. After just a couple of days, I can tell the difference in edge retention between either 1095 or 420HC, and Queen's D2. The D2 is noticeably better, but it's nowhere near a "super steel" anymore. Powdered steels like CPM-S90V and S110V will hold an edge many, many times longer than D2. Yes, you need good stones, preferably diamond, to put an edge on one, but they are relatively easy to maintain an edge on. And you end up doing it so seldom, that it is really no chore at all.
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Queen only hardens their D2 to a 58. That's pretty low for D2. On many modern folders it is hardened to a 61. Makes a difference.

D2 at 61 still won't match S90V. But it will outperform S30V.
 
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