Slippie vs modern - steel

[JB in SC]

I'm in the camp who wants better steel in traditional style knives. I don't do a high volume of cutting often, but when I do, I like for the edge to stay as sharp as it can as long as it can, because it's just easier to cut with a sharp knife. Even GEC's 440C has gotten dull enough on me in a sitting, that it required a lot more effort to cut and was doing almost as much tearing as cutting. The Lionsteel Barlow is cool. The Enigma Classics are also cool when those pop up.

If I did that kind of cutting every day, though, I might have a different tool. Slicing cardboard is a little precarious with a slip joint anyhow. Thick ply cardboard will bind the blade, and the handle will fold if you're not careful.

I worked in the textile industry for thirty five years, a guy cutting open a cardboard box with a slip joint would be considered a safety issue. We broke down thousands of boxes every week, nothing but a utility knife was allowed to be used.

 

[The Mastiff]

I enjoy modernized traditionals with high performing alloys but will still buy 1095 when that is what is available. IMO a GEC Ben Hogan lockback in ebony would be much better CPM Cruwear at rc62 but I don't expect GEC to do anything except what is in GEC's best interests. There are times I do put the vintage ones down when I need the staying power of those Vanadium and tungsten carbides though so I'm in the "I'll take both" camp.

 

[mnblade]

A lot of discussion here suggests that hard use of a knife is a theoretical thing

Many thousands of people pick up a knife in the morning when they arrive at work and put it down when they leave.
I used to be one.

That is your supply of empirical data to support assessments of steel qualities.

Not being snarky or confrontational at all. But I'm wondering who picks up a traditional pocketknife (or any folder for that matter) and uses it all day long? I mean, if I were working in a meat-packing plant or cutting carpets or boxes of floor coverings all day long, I dang sure wouldn't be using a pocketknife.

I can only speak for me, but the reason I don't lust after the latest greatest whiz bang steel is simply that, for a pocketknife, the steels used by Case, GEC, Victorinox, Buck, etc., are plenty good enough.

-- Mark

 

[Camillus]

My point was about the type of steel used, not the type of knife.

The point is that super steels are better than normal steels BUT super steels have not overtaken normal steels in industry i.e. where the most cutting gets done.

Its kind of an obvious point. But it kills some of the arguments that are made about the advantages of super steels in practical applications.

 

[sceva]

Heat Treatment is more important than the actual steel used. 1095 or 420 with proper heat treatment will give a better blade than ATS34, VG10 etc with a sub-standard Heat Treatment. With equally good heat treatment the "Supersteels" will probably hold their edge longer but, in my opinion, from a users standpoint at the cost of being harder to touch up the edge and higher in cost. Is it worth it, at times yes, but for most everyday uses, probably not. That said, where stainlesses are concerned, I would prefer a blade with ATS-34, 154CM etc over 420 all things being equal. For Carbon, I have no issues with good old 1095 or with D2 on the higher end.

 

[The Mastiff]

"Heat Treatment is more important than the actual steel used. 1095 or 420 with proper heat treatment will give a better blade than ATS34, VG10 etc with a sub-standard Heat Treatment."

I've seen this written dozens if not hundreds of times over the decades and it's very true. To be honest though I can't say I've ever seen a honest to goodness blown heat treat from any of the manufacturers I buy knives from and this goes back to the 60's. I don't count Pakistani knives as I've seen knives made of un-heat treatable pot metal come from there. Some companies may do what I'd call better heat treats than others with the same steel but none I've experienced have blown it completely.

I can say I see why some companies choose different materials over others and I try not to second guess that but I don't go along with anything remotely like "super steels take more/are harder to sharpen or need equipment most don't have". If someone can sharpen they can get what they need to sharpen even the most vanadium rich high hardness super steels for less money than it takes to now buy a real soft arkansas stone. I've seen silicone carbide stones for less than a dollar. Diamond sharpeners for under $10.

Carbon steels at rc 52 are no better or worse than Maxamet at rc 68. They are just different materials with different needs and different strengths and weaknesses. Screwdrivers are not better than wrenches. They just are made for different things.

Joe

 

[traumkommode]

Here's some M390.

 

[jackknife]

Not being snarky or confrontational at all. But I'm wondering who picks up a traditional pocketknife (or any folder for that matter) and uses it all day long? I mean, if I were working in a meat-packing plant or cutting carpets or boxes of floor coverings all day long, I dang sure wouldn't be using a pocketknife.

I can only speak for me, but the reason I don't lust after the latest greatest whiz bang steel is simply that, for a pocketknife, the steels used by Case, GEC, Victorinox, Buck, etc., are plenty good enough.

-- Mark

This!!!!!!!

If I'm, into a job where my pocket knife is not up to it, then a Utility knife is being used or another tool.

 

[bikerector]

My point was about the type of steel used, not the type of knife.

The point is that super steels are better than normal steels BUT super steels have not overtaken normal steels in industry i.e. where the most cutting gets done.

Its kind of an obvious point. But it kills some of the arguments that are made about the advantages of super steels in practical applications.

Theft is the biggest reason I can think of why the places I've worked (food manufacturing) wouldn't use nicer knives. Most didn't require very sharp knives most of the time unless they were cutting up a lot of meat (opening boxes was still 75%+ of the cutting I think, frozen veggies and such). Anything better than awful had a tendency to be "misplaced" either from the people who used them or the people required to clean them (we had a shelf/sheath system to clean the cooks knives nightly).

I also think it had a lot to do with the tendency for ease of maintenance as softer/cheaper stainless steels tend to handle chemicals better (440A and 420 HC are supposed to be pretty stain resistant).

I know some in the high-speed slaughter/butchering facilities would have half a dozen knives on them so they would swap knives every hour or so to get a sharp one. That's one way to get around using a nicer knife but always having a sharp one on you. This could have been just one facility, I have not seen others. Most food producers also make you use provided cutlery for safety/insurance purposes.

 

[stezann]

Everybody should also keep in mind that material scientists in the R&D lab need to create the best steels, while material engineers in the production environments need to use the cheapest materials for the task at hand, and optimize the HT to recieve less complaint.
We really don't need to relay on the steel's name alone... let's take 1095 just for example. Factory made knives barely reach 58 hrc while that steel shines at or above 62 hrc. Companies won't allow such high hardness coming out, since a lot of people would complain about brittleness and difficult of sharpening. So they are not "botching" the HT, they make on purpose an all around foolproof tool.
With modern automation & control it would be naive to think a factory might don't know how to HT any steel... they know better it is not a good idea selling out to general public utterly specialized steels. Specialization compromises the range of uses, making more customers sad.

 

[spyderg]

Used to work in a food warehouse for 19 yrs. I found boxcutters, even the HD thick blade type were not up to the job. Tips would snap off and go flying. On the day shift I would use a modern folder as I could open and close one handed and operate equipment without putting it down. On the night shift where I didn't have to be constantly closing it for safety around other people, a slipjoint worked just fine. Never worried about breaking it on the reinforced strapping like the box cutters. Always used a GEC, nothing cheap or flimsy. Not sure I'd trust one of those little cheapo ones I've seen, I won't start a debate on that, just pointing out my experience GEC knives inspires confidence.
I like to carry both a modern locking folder and slipjoint when I can, slippy gets almost all the duties of the day however.

 

[jimmyd1982]

When I had jobs where I was frequently using a knife, or when I'd have to take trips that lasted for a month or more, I would usually carry a modern knife with a higher end steel.
I preferred a blade that would stay sharp longer, and a knife that was quicker to open and close.

Now that I mainly use my knife around the house or when I'm out on a hike, I have no problem with steels that don't hold an edge as long, and I've always found traditionals to be more aesthetically pleasing.

I like a sharp knife and while I enjoy sharpening I don't really want to do it everyday. If I get a new job that puts some miles on my knife I'll likely go back to carrying a modern folder with a super steel at work and carrying a traditional at home.

 

[Bigbobg]

I have spent some time over on the General forum, and over there all the talk is about their folders being made of the latest and greatest frames and super steels (VG10, CPMxxx, etc). I come over to this forum and everybody loves their folders in 1095, CV, 4xx...

All the knives I have are in the more traditional stainless or 1095 category, so I have no experience with the super steels. Just curious why there isn't a similar movement among the slip joint crowd. Is that just a lot of bravado on the other board, do those type of knives benefit somehow from more modern steels, or is it just that "traditional" knives continue to use the traditional steels?

Traditional materials for traditional knives.

 

[spyderg]

I'm loving my Enigma with titanium liners, (so light) and us2000 steel, ( like Cruwear). Mosaic pivot, brass pins, maple burl covers. For me it's the perfect balance of traditional style and construction with "better" materials.

 

[Danke42]

My point was about the type of steel used, not the type of knife.

The point is that super steels are better than normal steels BUT super steels have not overtaken normal steels in industry i.e. where the most cutting gets done.

Its kind of an obvious point. But it kills some of the arguments that are made about the advantages of super steels in practical applications.

So called super steels are migrating to knives from cutting tools used in industry. Their higher performance means the tools last longer, cut cleaner, go through tougher materials and are in most aspects better than what came before.

I am just guessing but what I think you're meaning is secondary jobs where cutting stuff by hand is required. Breaking down boxes at the receiver's desk, cutting stuff open on arrival to inspect the contents, day to day warehouse tasks. For that a super inexpensive super vanilla utillity knife is what's called for because it will get lost, broken, worn out, loaned out, backed over by a truck or forklift etc. so dirt cheap and disposable is the first priority when purchasing.

A traditional styled pocket knife may not "need" a super steel but it's in no way diminished by one. And I have a sneaking suspicion that at time said pattern was created the blade steel used was super compared to other utility knives of the same time period.

 

[traumkommode]

A traditional styled pocket knife may not "need" a super steel but it's in no way diminished by one. And I have a sneaking suspicion that at time said pattern was created the blade steel used was super compared to other utility knives of the same time period.

This.

Frankly, reprofiling GEC's factory edges down to 30-35 degrees inclusive with good cutting stones takes a "long" time. Maybe not quite as long as a modern super steel, but close enough. Sharpening and reprofiling are two different tasks, and sharpening even super steels (so long as they aren't super dull, but even then it isn't bad at the same angle as previously sharpened) doesn't take that much longer than older steels, with good sharpening media. The reprofile is the time gobbler, in my experience. And that's with just about any factory knife, any steel.

 

[Camillus]

D Danke42 - no, I am not talking about secondary jobs, if you read my post I am clearly talking about people who use a knife all day long.

The point is that there is no debate that super steels are better at edge retention. They are. But they aren't better enough to justify their higher cost and other disadvantages in industry, where knives are actually used. Industry provides the real life factors that weigh against super steels.

How those real life factors affect you is then purely individual choice. I can carry a $150 knife in my pocket or a $100 knife. One will hold an edge longer. I work it out from there.

 

[Danke42]

There must have been a debate like this around the apple barrel when the first stainless steel folders started showing up.

 

[Danke42]

D Danke42 - no, I am not talking about secondary jobs, if you read my post I am clearly talking about people who use a knife all day long.

The point (again) is that there is no debate that super steels are better at edge retention. They are. But they aren't better enough to justify their higher cost and other disadvantages in industry, where knives are actually used. Industry provides the real life factors that weigh against super steels, and can't be ignored.

I'm in industry. The knife I use is a plastic handled utility knife. Nothing traditional or super about it.

I'll be honest with my opinion. Anyone using a traditional slipjoint as their all day cutting tool in industry is doing that as an affection; not as an efficient use of their time and energy.

In your opinion is something like M390 a super steel?

 

[Camillus]

I dunno. I am just trying to clear up a debate about steel quality or steel merits that never ends. The reason it never ends is the argument strays off course.

You could also make the same debate about the quality of plastics in the knife handle and their relative durability. Ultimately one will be better and if it costs more, choices will be offered. As we know, as soon as choices get offered online forums spring into action...