Snake identification?

Like many long time Arizona residents, to me killing a rattlesnake is like swatting a mosquito. There's no shortage of them and it's simply not worth the life of someone you love to have rattlesnakes near your home. In addition to being plentiful, they are also tasty, and well practiced skill at killing them is a valuable survival skill. A dead snake on the ground, if you decide not to eat it, just means a free meal for some other, more worthy desert creature that evening.

As for rodent control, rattlesnakes are extremely lazy hunters. They don't control the rodents. They like it when rodents run amok because then it's easy prey. If you have a rodent problem and the 12 or so serious, often rapidly fatal diseases that they carry in Arizona, soon you will have both a rodent AND a rattlesnake problem. You're far better off wiping out the rattlers in your immediate vicinity and just bringing in some cats.

The cats WILL wipe out the rodents. This is why they were domesticated in the first place thousands of years ago. Modern cats were domesticated from a small, wild, North African desert cat. Because of the diseases they carry (like the super deadly American form of Hanta) which are often spread by their droppings, wiping out rodents is not a choice, but a necessity.

Everything in the Sonora eats rodents, even the toads, and the 11 species of rattlesnakes don't make a dent in the supply. Arizona has some pretty big desert toads. The Sonoran Toad is typically 7"+ across.

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mrostov said:
Like many long time Arizona residents, to me killing a rattlesnake is like swatting a mosquito. There's no shortage of them and it's simply not worth the life of someone you love to have rattlesnakes near your home. In addition to being plentiful, they are also tasty, and well practiced skill at killing them is a valuable survival skill. A dead snake on the ground, if you decide not to eat it, just means a free meal for some other, more worthy desert creature that evening.

As for rodent control, rattlesnakes are extremely lazy hunters. They don't control the rodents. They like it when rodents run amok because then it's easy prey. If you have a rodent problem and the 12 or so serious, often rapidly fatal diseases that they carry in Arizona, soon you will have both a rodent AND a rattlesnake problem. You're far better off wiping out the rattlers in your immediate vicinity and just bringing in some cats.

The cats WILL wipe out the rodents. This is why they were domesticated in the first place thousands of years ago. Modern cats were domesticated from a small, wild, North African desert cat. Because of the diseases they carry and are often spread by their droppings, wiping out rodents is not a choice, but a necessity.

Everything in the Sonora eats rodents, even the toads, and the 11 species of rattlesnakes don't make a dent in the supply. Arizona has some pretty big desert toads. The Sonoran Toad is typically 7"+ across.

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If left alone, rattlesnakes are seldom a threat except when in the immediate vicinity of people and pets. Many people are bitten by venomous snakes each year while in the act of trying to catch or kill the snake.

There is nothing "New Age" about a rattlesnake's role in the food chain, its basic biology.

I have no idea where you got the idea that they are "lazy" hunters.

Domestic cats, on the other hand, are vermin that destroy thousands of song birds and game birds (like dove and quail) each year. Cats are lazy and turn from rodents to nesting and roosting birds which usually don't require a chase like mice and rats. There is no better mouse trap than a snake. And they're free.

GB
 
Gerberblades said:
If left alone, rattlesnakes are seldom a threat except when in the immediate vicinity of people and pets. Many people are bitten by venomous snakes each year while in the act of trying to catch or kill the snake.
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The snakes go where the rodents go, and that often means into your house. There are so many snakes in Arizona that you'll find them in all sorts of places. Hell, I killed one in my kitchen one morning. I would normally keep a .22LR snubbie revolver loaded with CCI shotshells just for in-house snake eradication.

Gerberblades said:
I have no idea where you got the idea that they are "lazy" hunters.
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It's called 'years of practical, first hand experience'. If you have a rodent problem, in addition to a disease problem, you will soon have a snake problem - and the snakes will NOT wipe the rodents out. They will just set up shop and hang out.

The fact is that cats will wipe out the rodents - period. Do you know that 1:9 mice carry hanta now? Do you know how fast that will kill you? Besides, once the cats wipe out the rats and mice, the rattlesnakes stay away - usually.

Yes, cats can become a problem because they breed so fast, and that is easily solved via other methods.


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I am a rare person, I was almost killed by a housecat. When I was about 6 or 7 years young, our cat scratched me on the neck and it caused my trachea to almost close completely. They rushed me to the Doctor in time, almost had to suffer through the horror of having a hole cut in my throat.

It was not an allergy, just a filthy claw that I had a bad reaction to.

Rattlesnakes?

They have a powerful lobby. :D

I have killed three rattlesnakes in my life and I have eaten all three of them. I don't take pride or glee in killing animals, venomous snakes makes me come close to it.

Arguing that nature's rodent eradication program would suffer as much as a speedbump in the grand scheme of things from the total elimination of poisonous snakes is simply goofy. It's like arguing that Brown Recluse and Black Widow eradication would somehow upset the ecology of insect eradication. We're talking on a one on one basis, not a spray that would endanger other spiders, etc.

Well, snuffing out the pit viper population around your property is just something that's your business and it shouldn't be the business of government. If someone wants to kill them, I mean, look at that kid Justin's medical bills for one bite - 700,000 and that's nothing to sneeze at.
 
ilbruche said:
Most rattlers are ambush predators. They don't actively hunt for prey.
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They do hunt. Actively. Ambushing is just one hunt strategy. They use their heat sensitive pits to seek warm blooded prey in mammal burrows and on dark nights, when they are most active.

It's called 'years of practical, first hand experience'. If you have a rodent problem, in addition to a disease problem, you will soon have a snake problem - and the snakes will NOT wipe the rodents out. They will just set up shop and hang out.

It sounds like a housekeeping problem.

Arguing that nature's rodent eradication program would suffer as much as a speedbump in the grand scheme of things from the total elimination of poisonous snakes is simply goofy. It's like arguing that Brown Recluse and Black Widow eradication would somehow upset the ecology of insect eradication. We're talking on a one on one basis, not a spray that would endanger other spiders, etc.

Thats not a well-developed comparison and I don't think anyone was arguing that. Eliminating two species of spiders versus all venomous snakes is quite different. The increase in rodent populations is due to an increase in available food and the inability of predators to keep a lid on them. The result can be the spread of diseases like hanta virus, etc.

GB
 
I wouldn't consider a snake that eats one or two rodents a week an "active" predator.
 
Gerberblades said:
They do hunt. Actively. Ambushing is just one hunt strategy. They use their heat sensitive pits to seek warm blooded prey in mammal burrows and on dark nights, when they are most active.
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You are absolutely correct. The sensory organs are the loreal pits. I had to double-check that, been a long time since I was in a biology class, I thought I was getting things mixed up with my Wife's makeup supply. :D

My quote:

Arguing that nature's rodent eradication program would suffer as much as a speedbump in the grand scheme of things from the total elimination of poisonous snakes is simply goofy. It's like arguing that Brown Recluse and Black Widow eradication would somehow upset the ecology of insect eradication. We're talking on a one on one basis, not a spray that would endanger other spiders, etc.

You response:

Thats not a well-developed comparison and I don't think anyone was arguing that. Eliminating two species of spiders versus all venomous snakes is quite different. The increase in rodent populations is due to an increase in available food and the inability of predators to keep a lid on them. The result can be the spread of diseases like hanta virus, etc.

GB
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No, eliminating two species of spiders that are destructive to man. Although it is true that there are many spiders in North America that people can have a bad reaction to, including death, that is incredibly rare. These two spiders are the baddies. Killing all of them you encounter is not going to upset the ecology of the country. If you could come up with a custom insecticide or arachnacide ( :D ) that only eliminated these two spiders, we would not be inundated with insects.

Likewise, if you could kill all of the rattlesnakes, copperheads and cottonmouths, it would not really dent the ecology in the slightest.

ilbruche said:
I wouldn't consider a snake that eats one or two rodents a week an "active" predator.
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Continuing on with the line of thought from above, I agree with "Mr. Rostov" except when it comes to rattlesnakes being "lazy predators." Then I am in your camp along with "Gerber Blades."

The very fact they have these loreal pits in their face, along with not only a poison-delivery system but one that utilizes a naturally evolved double hypodermic set of fangs is nothing short of amazing! A miracle of evolution and the reason for that is ... a natural, highly evolved predator. I don't know if "lazy" even comes into the equation or not, they're highly developed predators.

As far as keeping them away from your home, it is a landscaping, grass and weed cutting as well as housekeeping issue. Yet, mice still want to have a warmer place in the winter and they give birth...A LOT. So, basically if you have a dwelling, you can have a snake problem.

I don't really care one way or another, I'm just having a conversation. I just don't think the world would be worse off if they all were killed and King Snakes took their place, etc.
 
Gerberblades said:
If left alone, rattlesnakes are seldom a threat except when in the immediate vicinity of people and pets. Many people are bitten by venomous snakes each year while in the act of trying to catch or kill the snake.

GB
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My brother read this today and said:

"If left alone, landmines are seldom a threat except when in the immediate vicinity of people and pets...

... you might add the caution that landmines, unlike venomous snakes, do not generally wander into your home or yard under their own power..."
 
Don, I carry no brief for rattlers. I had to take care of them as a lab assistant, and they have bad breath and no charm. However, landmines will not try to move out of your way. A rattler will.

I did lots of backpacking in California -- an average of twice a month. I was in groups of three to over a hundred (The Scouts go marching two by two, harrah, harrah . . . .). I saw two rattlers. I heard maybe another half dozen. The third rattler I have seen in the wild, years later, was in New Mexico. I observed all the usual precautions. They just didn't seem to be an issue.

As always, YMMV.
 
Don Rearic said:
Continuing on with the line of thought from above, I agree with "Mr. Rostov" except when it comes to rattlesnakes being "lazy predators." Then I am in your camp along with "Gerber Blades."

The very fact they have these loreal pits in their face, along with not only a poison-delivery system but one that utilizes a naturally evolved double hypodermic set of fangs is nothing short of amazing! A miracle of evolution and the reason for that is ... a natural, highly evolved predator. I don't know if "lazy" even comes into the equation or not, they're highly developed predators.
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You misunderstand what I meant by 'lazy predator'. They don't kill rodents at a very high rate. You can be up to your butt in snakes, and they still won't kill rodents fast enough to do anything about the problem.

Generally, the best way to deal with a rodent problem is with a warm blooded predator, like cats.

Gerberblades said:
It sounds like a housekeeping problem.
GB
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Sounds like, by and large, you just haven't lived in the rural desert very much, if at all.

BTW, healthy adults with very clean houses have died simply from the dust of routinely sweeping out their garage. Approximately 1in 9 mice have Hanta across the USA now. In Arizona, the rodents carry a dozen serious diseases, offering everything from birth defects to plague.

One thing I've always noticed is that those who talk about rattlesnakes with the attitude of, "Oh, they're in your yard but they won't hurt you," attitude usually either don't live where they really get into your yards much or they don't have kids.
 
A friend solves his kid/rattler problem (semi-desert area/3 kids/stream) by picking up non-poisonous snakes on the highway each night as he drove home. (Don will know what I mean.) He dumped them in his yard. Eventually, when he'd shy a rock into the brush, no more rattling. Also, no desert rats, ground squirrels, or ground-nesting birds.
 
mrostov said:
You misunderstand what I meant by 'lazy predator'. They don't kill rodents at a very high rate. You can be up to your butt in snakes, and they still won't kill rodents fast enough to do anything about the problem.

Generally, the best way to deal with a rodent problem is with a warm blooded predator, like cats.

Sounds like, by and large, you just haven't lived in the rural desert very much, if at all.
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mrostov said:
I know the desert very well. Grew up in the Great Basin, spent over a decade in the Eastern Mojave and currently in the lower Sonoran. The highest density of rattlesnakes I have experienced is in So. Arizona: Western Diamondbacks followed by Blacktails. Got kids, pets. One of the keys is to understand their habits, respect their potential for causing harm and go about your life. The desert is full of things that bite and sting. Some need to go-some need to be avoided and some need to be tolerated. An experienced desert dweller is comfortable with that. I take it you're not from here.

GB
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Thomas Linton said:
A friend solves his kid/rattler problem (semi-desert area/3 kids/stream) by picking up non-poisonous snakes on the highway each night as he drove home. (Don will know what I mean.) He dumped them in his yard. Eventually, when he'd shy a rock into the brush, no more rattling. Also, no desert rats, ground squirrels, or ground-nesting birds.
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Indeed, I think this can go a long way towards getting rid of rodent problems. If there are no rodents, there won't generally be rattlesnakes. Of course, that is a generalization that can be totally blown out of the water by an area that is simply infested with a large number of rattlesnakes. :D

Ultimately, the child safety issue will have to be addressed by whatever means necessary and I think we can all agree to that. You could have a neighbor that's a stone pig when it comes to having stuff in and around his house and you could end up killing his unwanted, rattling guests.

Gerberblades said:
I know the desert very well. Grew up in the Great Basin, spent over a decade in the Eastern Mojave and currently in the lower Sonoran. The highest density of rattlesnakes I have experienced is in So. Arizona: Western Diamondbacks followed by Blacktails. Got kids, pets. One of the keys is to understand their habits, respect their potential for causing harm and go about your life. The desert is full of things that bite and sting. Some need to go-some need to be avoided and some need to be tolerated. An experienced desert dweller is comfortable with that. I take it you're not from here.

GB
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That's just a silly generalization to end your post with, it's one-upmanship that doesn't really matter when the bullet hits the snake, you know? To think that everyone that was born and raised in the desert just loves rattlesnakes is just nonsense.

The reason I joked in the beginning of this conversation that rattlesnakes have a powerful lobby is because they do.

So do bears.

So do mountain lions.

Fortunately, so do firearms. :D

There are so many more things that could be said about poisonous snakes in general and the venerable rattlesnake in particular. Sometimes they don't rattle because, like people, some of them are brown-arounds (anus) and they're just nasty creatures with a bad attitude. Some of them have their rattles busted off, they're fairly frail, after all. Some of them are just as startled as you and it's really an "Oh Sh*t!" reaction to them and they strike.

Some, just like some people, want to be left alone. Some don't want to fight, some are itching for it. They're not all reptilian automatons, you know what I mean?

A copperhead is just a pig of a snake. Some of them smell very strongly of cucumbers, some don't. Most are more interested in getting away from you, they are truly not a very aggressive snake at all and that is sort of mirrored by their venom - it being the weakest of all American Pit Vipers. It will kill the sensitive, young and old...that's about it. I've stepped on them, my brother pissed on one of them once on a canoe trip.

Snakes are strange beasts indeed. They get pissed when they're hungry, they get pissed when they've just eaten, they are pissed when they are ready to shed and during the shedding process. So, it's with all of these things in mind that I do my own personal threat-assessment - I say they are dangerous and if they don't immediately get out of my way, if I have the means to kill them, I think I have the right to do that. I won't chase them down to kill them unless they are headed for someone else. I think this is fair to nature as well.

Cottonmouths and Rattlesnakes are entirely different. Not all, but most of them. Myths are the thing of legend. I will tell you one experience I had with them in Southwestern Virginia. These were Timber Rattlesnakes, they WILL come out on a warm day with bright sunshine in the middle of winter. You probably couldn't blow their ass off of their rock with a stick of dynamite, but they will come up on top of the rock they are hibernating under if the rock warms up.

I don't know. I actually like snakes, I really do. I don't see a reason to kill a non-poisonous snake unless you really have to. I did cross tempers with a black snake years ago that was just mean as all hell and it was coming after me. I know people that will kill any snake they see, they are terrified of them. I have another friend that is terrified of them and the only thing you see of him when a snake is spotted is his ***hole and elbows running for all he's worth.

Everyone is different and I think that has to be respected as well.

Again, something that can cause a three-quarters of a million dollar injury and has a mind of its own is something you need to deal with carefully.
 
Gerberblades said:
I know the desert very well. Grew up in the Great Basin, spent over a decade in the Eastern Mojave and currently in the lower Sonoran. The highest density of rattlesnakes I have experienced is in So. Arizona: Western Diamondbacks followed by Blacktails. Got kids, pets. One of the keys is to understand their habits, respect their potential for causing harm and go about your life. The desert is full of things that bite and sting. Some need to go-some need to be avoided and some need to be tolerated. An experienced desert dweller is comfortable with that. I take it you're not from here.

GB
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Actually, I am from there and have actually lived in the rural desert in both the Mojave and Sonora deserts, including living on Indian reservations. In college I used to teach edible plant classes in the Sonora desert environment near Phoenix. I understand the habits of the local fauna extremely well. I can survive in the desert like few can and I am quite comfortable in the desert, even on a primitive level.

That is why I know what works and what doesn't on a practical level.

You get a house, especially an older house out in the desert, especially one that has not been inhabited for a few months, and you WILL have both a rodent and a snake problem and you have to deal with it. Many of those that have died from the hanta virus, like on the Navajo reservation, were from the healthiest segment of the population.

You have to eliminate in short order both the rodents and the snakes from your immediate perimeter. You really can't live elbow to elbow with either one, it's that simple.
 
In our local fishwrap their was a story about a guy vacationing in Southeast Asia and he had a guide leading him to Angor Wat, a temple in the wilds....The guide said "Let me lead so I can push the brush away before you walk thru it..In case their is a Black Mamba in there. You do NOT want to get bitten by one." The guys says.."What should I do if I do get bit by one?"......The guide says..Lay down in the grass and take a swig of water and relax...You'll be dead in about 60 seconds"....LOL
 
I enjoy reading about snakes. I have had many encounters with rattlers and water mocassins. The cotton mouth will attack. I had a very serious time with one trying to climb in my canoe to bite. I had no gun, stick, and the paddle was close but I couldn't stop to reach it

I a carry a revolver with snake shot pretty much all the time when ever on the water or out in the "sticks". Hog hunting I walked amongst 4 rattle snakes and still don't know why they didn't strike. I was prespiring quite heavily tip toeing out of the wet land.
 
I know the desert very well. Grew up in the Great Basin, spent over a decade in the Eastern Mojave and currently in the lower Sonoran. The highest density of rattlesnakes I have experienced is in So. Arizona: Western Diamondbacks followed by Blacktails. Got kids, pets. One of the keys is to understand their habits, respect their potential for causing harm and go about your life. The desert is full of things that bite and sting. Some need to go-some need to be avoided and some need to be tolerated. An experienced desert dweller is comfortable with that. I take it you're not from here.
GB

Don Rearic said:
That's just a silly generalization to end your post with, it's one-upmanship that doesn't really matter when the bullet hits the snake, you know? .
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My reply was in response to mrostov's comment:

Sounds like, by and large, you just haven't lived in the rural desert very much, if at all.


There was no intention to one-up anyone. My point was that there are a lot of new folks moving into the southwest and a common trait I have noted is a dislike and /or fear of local critters of all types, including rattlesnakes.

that doesn't really matter when the bullet hits the snake, you know?

I'm not quite sure where that came from. A long handled shovel is more effective.

To think that everyone that was born and raised in the desert just loves rattlesnakes is just nonsense

I never implied that everyone should love them. But a little respect and caution can keep you out of an ER.

It was my intention to clear up some of the misinformation that has been posted on this thread and share some of the things gleaned from decades of experience working and living with these creatures.

GB
 
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