Snark till the cows come home

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Chameleonbear said:
She only got 134 miles to the tank?! What car is she driving?!!!!!!
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Who knows why that trip odometer was set like that, she resets it for the weirdest trips. The range said "0", so she'd obviously been planning it for a while. It's a 2012 Toyota Corrola, I hate cars.
 
Chameleonbear said:
Gotta go move some water around again... I'm thinking if I had a fire hose I could get all the snow off real easy from the hill. The rest of the family doesn't like that idea. They seem to think the hill will turn into ice if I do that.
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*shrug* Maybe use warm water? Warm water doesn't freeze because its not cold... Right?
 
Slip 'n slide. Fun for the whole neighborhood.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
As far as shooting off lots of rounds, well, I've put about 5000 through my PPQ 40 so far, which is my carry gun. Nary a single malfunction. I've done holster drills, malfunction drills (by loading a snap cap at random points in the middle of my mags), mag swap drills, and run it through 2 tactical courses (1000 rounds per each). Mine was the ONLY gun with no malfunctions in both courses.
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That's a gun that has proven it's self by anyone's standards:thumbup:

As far as .22 ANYTHING not having the punch, well, that's not really accurate. An actual look at the data indicates that for handgun calibers, it takes on average 2 rounds to stop an attacker (around 2.2-2.5 for 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP, and 2.6-2.8 for .22LR) based on around 20 years of data from police departments across the country. That's a negligible difference. At the end of the day, the size of the hole is irrelevant. The main issue is shot placement. You shoot someone in the head or heart or other vital organ, it doesn't matter what caliber the bullet happens to be.

And there have been people who have taken 20+ shots with 9mm ammo (the most popular handgun caliber in the US) and kept coming. For that matter, the AR-15/M4/M16 use .22 caliber ammunition. Sure, a .22LR or its more powerful cousin, the .22 WMR don't have the velocity to reach out to hundreds of yards. But then, your average shooter can't even shoot accurately at a hundred yards with a pistol. At the 7-21 feet ranges more common in self-defense situations, the power behind the cartridge doesn't really matter. I think that video that Bladite put up a while ago about that new "exciting" 9mm hollow point ammo is quite telling, considering the damage could be simulated with 2 shots with .22 LR. The guy in the video seemed to think that indicative of non-exciting damage for the 9mm (still plenty powerful, but not revolutionary), but it's also evidence that a .22 LR is plenty good enough for defensive purposes (which is possibly why Mossad seems to think .22LR is plenty good enough for their fieldwork). In fact, the main issue with rimfire ammo for defending oneself isn't the "stopping power" of the round. It's the inherent lower reliability of the ammo relative to centerfire ammo.

IMO, the caliber debate is utterly stupid. Did you know, for instance, that .40 S&W, the most hated of the popular calibers, has a higher one-shot-stop percentage in the real world than the similar 10mm ammo that people seem to think is so much better (and marginally better than 9mm as well). Or that .45 ACP doesn't actually stop people with one shot? There are hundreds of documented cases in which an assailant has survived multiple shots with .45 ACP hollowpoint ammunition (and good stuff, like Speer Gold Dots). The truth is, even in the industry, people have utterly wrong ideas about calibers that are simply not borne out by the data. Shot placement, not size, is the be-all and the end-all.
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For starters I was specifically referring to the .22wmr cartridge, not .22 caliber bullets in general. Shot placement is the most important thing but along with that bigger holes work better. Statistics say that in the past .22lr has been nearly as effective at halting an attack as larger calibers but at the same time most instances where a gun in used in self defense a round isn't even discharged. More often then not it's the threat of dying that convinces the attacker to stop, not actually being incapacitated. But, as is often brought up, if you actually had to use lethal force, do you want to count on your attacker being in the right frame of mind or do you want something that's going to force him to stop regardless. Now handguns are marginally effective at best, but if you put the bullet where it needs to go, a larger bullet with more powder behind it is going to have a higher chance of incapacitating an opponent. The trade off is, larger bullets with more powder make it harder to put that bullet there in the first place. Neither one is the be-all end-all.

Moosez45 said:
Caliber is irrelevant, speed and accuracy is paramount.

First person to put holes in the other guy(s) wins.

Be it 22lr or 50DE, doesn't matter.
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I'll assume you meant "put holes in the other guy where it counts". Even still there are variables and just plain odd-ball freak occurrences that can prevent a bullet from doing it's job. I once heard a story of a state patrolman who was shot right smack in the center of the bridge of the nose with a .357 magnum. The bullet didn't penetrate and he wasn't even knocked out and immediately returned fire, killing the shooter. He didn't even realize he'd been shot until his partner started administering first aid. Other than a nasty superficial flesh wound he was fine. That story illustrates that anything can happen, but larger calibers still have a better chance of incapacitating an opponent. The best piece of advice is "carry a gun chambered in the largest caliber that you can shoot accurately". You need to be able to hit your target but you need a round that will do it's job when it gets there.

I doubt we're really in disagreement here and I do think the caliber debate has been blown way out of proportion. Everything aside I bet if everyone in here was given the option just about all of them are going to go with a 9mm, .40, or .45acp or a similar cartridge. (I actually choose 9mm myself) I'm not going to choose a .500 S&W for concealed carry just because it has the best terminal ballistics in a handgun and nobody else is going to pick a .22lr just because statistics claim that in the past it has ended as many fights as anything else. We're pretty much all going to try and find a balance somewhere in the middle.


Jerry D. said:
My Dad torments me with pictures such as this..... Damn, I miss the country.

DSC00720_zpsd299021a.jpg


The old '53 CJ3B is being put to work as a wood truck. That tiny Jeep with tire-chains is virtually unstoppable back in the woods.
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Those jeeps are too small for my fat backside but they sure are cool. That's an awesome pic.


Moosez45 said:
And light. Even loaded down. Course I'm used to 1911's and HK's.

I've wanted a Walther since I first saw Dr. NO. So, i started with a PPK/s, then the P99, P990, PQS( AMAZING!!!) And recently the PK380.

I got rid of them all, though. Seems unless its a 45ACP, they don't hang around long.......

I have issues......

Moose
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I really like 9mm but there's just something about that .45 hole in the muzzle...
 
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Neighbor has a 4 wheeler with a plow, and just saved me a few hours worth of work. Came over and cleaned the drive off.
 
Jerry D. said:
A carry pistol is next on my list.... I'm really leaning towards the SR9C or M&P9SC; however, I do like how the Walther P99 looks.
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I personally don't like the extra safety features Ruger puts on the new SR pistols like the mag disconnect or internal key lock. I don't even like manual safeties on striker guns. So for me I'd have to go with the M&P without the optional thumb safety or mag disconnect. That's just me, I like my guns to be as simple as can be. Other guys like the idea of being able to dump the mag and render the gun inoperable if there was a struggle over it or the extra manual safety to prevent a discharge if something accidentally got in the trigger guard.
 
bigghoss said:
I imagine it would be nicer if you were lucky enough to own a suppressor.
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That would help. suppressors don't block the supersonic crack, though. I'm pretty sure they're 100% illegal in my state.
Also, hanging a big ol' weight on the end of a pistol will certainly help tame high-pressure rounds. So would extending the barrel by 6" - it would reduce exit pressures and put the noisy part farther from the shooter's ears, in addition to dampening the recoil of sharp loads.
 
Moose, seems to me what you're looking for is the SW99. It's basically a P99 AS chambered for .45 ACP.

Hoss, I think the main reason people don't go .22LR for defensive purposes (aside from false information that larger calibers have more "stopping power") is that the ammo is a lot more likely to fail to go bang because of the inherent delicacy of rimfires. That's certainly sufficient for me to not carry rimfire ammo for a defensive weapon. And I know you were talking about .22 WMR, not .22 in general. It's just that .22LR is the weakest round, and it's still plenty lethal. .22 WMR is clearly going to be more powerful.

And it's not that it's been used to stop just as many (that would be false). It's that, when it HAS been used, it hasn't taken significantly more rounds. Bigger bullets with more powder behind them only really matter when it comes to shooting at range or through concealment. At which point, you're likely to not be in the "defensive" realm for a jury, anyways. More, the statistics I'm referring to aren't rounds to drive an opponent off. It's the number of hits it's taken to incapacitate them. No matter the caliber, at defensive ranges, statistically, it's been 2-3 rounds to end the threat to the point where the opponent isn't shooting back. If it weren't for the (relative) unreliability of rimfire ammo, I think there's really no question that a .22 rimfire round would be the ticket for defensive purposes. It's got minimal recoil, so it's easier to stay on target, and it's just a lot less expensive than anything else, so you can get a lot more bangs for your buck practicing to put those shots where they count. Also smaller, so you can carry more ammunition. Always better to have more bullets than fewer in a gunfight, all things considered.

Too bad it's more delicate and unreliable. Also impossible to find these days. What's ammo availability like in Pueblo these days?
 
S&W autos have never bolstered confidence with me. I shot one, and didn't like it. We have a range here that lets you rent guns. Even full autos, and suppressed.

If you stick with good 22lr ammo, they are fully reliable. I've just finished a 1000rd brick of CCI 40gr without a single misfire or ftf. Good stuff. Its the only round my wife's mosquito will eat reliably.

I've carried a 22 for defense plenty of time. I can put 10 rounds in an area you can cover with your hand as fast as I can pull the trigger. That's enough for me to qualify as a defense sidearm.

Light recoil, a loud pop, and accurate, sustained fire. Perfect choice. And it would look good in a court room should you have to defend yourself.

Anyone wanna take 10 rounds of 22lr to the chest?

I know I wouldn't.

Moose
 
bigghoss said:
I personally don't like the extra safety features Ruger puts on the new SR pistols like the mag disconnect or internal key lock.
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I didn't realize it had one. Looks like its off the list... It popped up on the radar after playing around with a friend's. I haven't researched them much since I am not in the position to purchase anytime soon.
 
You've tried an SW99 and didn't like it? The other fellas on the Walther forums who have tried one all love theirs. I'd like to pick one up at some point. The M&P has never done it for me, but the SW99 is Walther's design, licensed to S&W for production in '99.
 
crimsonfalcon07 said:
You've tried an SW99 and didn't like it? The other fellas on the Walther forums who have tried one all love theirs. I'd like to pick one up at some point. The M&P has never done it for me, but the SW99 is Walther's design, licensed to S&W for production in '99.
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It was really "whippy". On that frame with the Walther ergos, a 45 is past my comfort limits. Small frame 45's leave me cold. JMB designed the 45acp to work best in a 5" barrel. By the time you shorten the barrel, and lighten up the bullet weight to pull down the recoil, you might as well be shooting a 40 S&W.

Ever notice how Walther doesn't make a 45 acp on that frame, but S&W does?

4 1/4" barrel is as small as I would go with a 45acp, keeping close to appropriate speed and 230grains of Gold dot whoopass.

But to each their own, thats why they make so many models.

Gimme some 1911 action. Ol' Slabsides.......heavy, hard hitting and if you run dry or need to, you could pistol whip the hell outta someone. :D

Moose
 
Pretty much impossible to go wrong with a 1911. I need to add one to my collection at some point. The EA Witness in .45 looks fun too.
 
Murphnuge said:
Hey Biscuit, my wife can't figure out a gas pump either. I thought it was strange that she wanted me to take her car to pick up our daughter.

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That logic sound about like some of our high class engineers at work........Oh,....wait a minute.......never mind! :o
 
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