Snobbery & does "Handmade" belong

Barty said:
The answer is in their name. It is the American Bladesmith Society. Not knife society. People of a like mind and interest set up a society. It isn't a slight to stock removal as far as I can tell.
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Yes, the American Bladesmith Society. Smith- a worker in metals; a maker- often used in conjunction ie, gunsmith, bladesmith. The ABS smith tests imply that one can only be a knife maker if one forges their blades. Thus, according to the ABS, only forged blades are knives. This may be a stretch, but there is the implication than stock removal blades are less than forged blades. I think that this is also stretching the constraints of the original post.

I think that the forum title constrains the content to that which is both custom and handmade. For example, Randall knives (which are hand made) are not discussed in this forum. Likewise, knives from the Buck Custom Shop and the Busse Custom Shop (which are custom ordered to specification and may or may not be handmade) are not discussed on this forum either, regardless of whether they are custom ordered and/or handmade.
 
Kohai999 said:
I would say Rick is still a handmade operation like most makers......otherwise, we get into Onion with the Mid-Tech, or R.J. Martin with his heavy use of CNC, and numerous other examples.......but Hinderer MAY fall into the definition as well....good question, not likely to be answered any time soon.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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I do not believe he grinds his own blades anymore.

maybe he still assembles them and does some final tweaking
 
Steven, this is the paragraph that I found to be the grittiest, and most controversial. Whether I would personally level it at someone else or not, would directly correlate with whether I wanted to be hypocritical or not. Fortunately, I didn't make the statement, and can only say I agree in part, keeping in mind of course the fact that I'm as subject to the aforementioned phenomena as most others in this forum. Not that I spout off about how wonderful my new knife is, only to turn around and sell it, (because I have never sold one of my custom knives) but I do tend to measure the impact of some of the knives posted here, and some of those I've purchased through contact with this forum, with the same 'cultural' yardstick as many of my fellows on the forum.

brownshoe said:
The pure fact that people need to have this forum validate their purchases fits right into "A snob is someone who judges all things, from shoes and dinner parties to love and beauty, according to their social rating". What I love is when the person posts how much this knife is the be all and end all of their collector's search, then everyone chimes in agreement like a Greek chorus, but the blade's up for sale less than two months later. Did they buy the knife because it truly is the gem of their collection, or just for the approval of the forum cliche?
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I find the question interesting. That is all.:)
 
This subject is riduculous. Custom and Handmade knives are exactly that....and....a certain price for them is determined by the marketplace. There is no inherent snobbery there....only if someone tries to CREATE it. I eat ( and enjoy ) Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream....$3.89 a pint.....so I guess I am a snob !!! If you can't afford a Custom Handmade " anything ".....get 2 jobs. If that doesn't do it, get 3 jobs and quit whining.
 
I'd better quit posting my low cost customs in this forum for critique. I mean the pure agony all the snobs must suffer from looking at my creations. If I charge more can I continue to post knives? :p

Edited to add:

The ABS is a society or "club" of like minded makers, follow their rules and get your stamp, don't follow your rules and you don't get their stamp. Here's another umpiring story.....

We were doing Fall College tryouts, umpires work Fall games being evaluated, then work a 3 day tourney with all evaluators and other big dawgs available to watch them work. One guy drove 180 miles one way for the tryout tourney. Great mechanics, great judgement, good game management. During evaluations they brought up his safe signal. He tended to bring his hands up past shoulder level creating a "flapping" look that is a big no go during evaluations. He told them he wasn't going to change his signal to suit them. The evaluator told him thanks for his time and not to worry about the rest of the tourney. I called a buddy to fill in, he followed directions and got the job that this guy didn't. If you want to be in a group it would heed you to follow their rules until you get to the point where you can ignore it.
 
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hlee said:
Yes, the American Bladesmith Society. Smith- a worker in metals; a maker- often used in conjunction ie, gunsmith, bladesmith. The ABS smith tests imply that one can only be a knife maker if one forges their blades. Thus, according to the ABS, only forged blades are knives. This may be a stretch, but there is the implication than stock removal blades are less than forged blades. I think that this is also stretching the constraints of the original post.
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While the word smith can define one who works on something (like a gunsmith), a very common usage is one who heats and pounds metal.

I'm not advocating forging over stock removal. I own both and enjoy both. But to criticize the ABS as somehow anti-stock removal is just plain wrong. They are a society of forgers and their tests necessarily require a forged knife.
 
sevenrider said:
This subject is riduculous. Custom and Handmade knives are exactly that....and....a certain price for them is determined by the marketplace. There is no inherent snobbery there....only if someone tries to CREATE it. I eat ( and enjoy ) Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream....$3.89 a pint.....so I guess I am a snob !!! If you can't afford a Custom Handmade " anything ".....get 2 jobs. If that doesn't do it, get 3 jobs and quit whining.
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I don't think the topic is ridiculous at all. It may not be of great importance, but it has gotten a great deal of interesting input, even if that input has often strayed far from the original premise.

Thank you for your comment. All thoughts on the matter are welcome. Even though you find it ridiculous, I appreciate that you decided to make your first post in this thread. Welcome to the Custom & Handmade Knives forum.
 
Barty said:
While the word smith can define one who works on something (like a gunsmith), a very common usage is one who heats and pounds metal.

I'm not advocating forging over stock removal. I own both and enjoy both. But to criticize the ABS as somehow anti-stock removal is just plain wrong. They are a society of forgers and their tests necessarily require a forged knife.
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Well said and true.
 
my wife and I joke that we are coffee snobs, because we don't/won't drink what passes for coffee at most places.:barf: :)

I can now exclaim, that when/if I talk to other folks who like knives in general, but who haven't been exposed to much, that I am a knife snob. The reason I could see myself doing this is twofold;

1. I settle less and less for production knives, as I acquire more and more customs
2. I believe in laughing at myself for all my foolishness, wherever that may lie.
 
ddd said:
This is a bit confusing, Keith, I think you should first define
HAND MADE KNIVES vs CUSTOM KNIVES all over again, to
make it easier for everyone....

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
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David,

you left out Home Made, that comes before Hand Made I made Home Made knives from 1942 to about 1967-8. I had to see a lot of hand made knives before I know what I was not doing.

Custom Knives has come to have meanings so widespread that it can mean a knife designed by a customer of Loveless or Moran or Warenski or at the other end it can be a knife made up entirely of water jet, EDM or other cnc made parts with only hand assembly and sharpening.

for any of those three terms to be understood requires that both maker and customer agree to what they mean for each transaction.

How sad.
 
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hlee said:
Yes, the American Bladesmith Society. Smith- a worker in metals; a maker- often used in conjunction ie, gunsmith, bladesmith. The ABS smith tests imply that one can only be a knife maker if one forges their blades. Thus, according to the ABS, only forged blades are knives. This may be a stretch, but there is the implication than stock removal blades are less than forged blades. I think that this is also stretching the constraints of the original post.
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That's stretched beyond the signpost that reads "this is ridiculous".

The ABS mission statement is to work toward the preservation and advancement of the art and science of the forged blade. To suggest that their focus on a particular craft form is, in and of itself, a condemnation of other construction methods is both illogical and irrational. And completely inaccurate.

Tell me, is the Antique Bowie Knife Association "against" contemporary knives? Should they be pilloried for their clear and exclusive focus: "Dedicated to the collecting, study, and preservation of Antique Bowie Knives" I mean - the nerve of them - excluding the entire spectrum of contemporary makers. Clearly, the implication is that only antique bowies are "real knives". Puhleeeze. Being "for" something doesn't automatically make one "against" something else.

The ABS is grounded in the craft of forging. It's what they teach. It's what they promote. Nobody is forced to join.

Roger
 
"Now is the winter of our discontent.... " (just practicing my Shakespeare)

I would put forth it is the makers who should define the terms- we collectors and armchair experts have no part in this pie. Saynyou feel Important is not enough.

Arrogant to think otherwise.. what Snobbery!
 
2knife said:
"Now is the winter of our discontent.... " (just practicing my Shakespeare)

I would put forth it is the makers who should define the terms- we collectors and armchair experts have no part in this pie. Saynyou feel Important is not enough.

Arrogant to think otherwise.. what Snobbery!
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:confused: Yep Keith, hard to follow in deed.
 
severedthumbs said:
I do not believe he grinds his own blades anymore.

maybe he still assembles them and does some final tweaking
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I believe Rick still grinds all the blades on all his knives except the Gen 3 XM18 , although I heard even though outsourced , there is still final grinding to be done on those as well.
 
This is a good thread with clear intent but I think there needs to be a definition of terms in order to get a clear reply. In my mind if a knife is created as a one of a kind item , or close to it, it should qualify. I don't have anything against using cnc machining or other types of modern technology but if the piece is a pretty much an exact copy of many others in the same style then it would seem to stray from the concept of cutom, even if the buyer had a choice of options. Knives completely made by hand, but by many pair, would seem more difficult to classify. If it's an assembly line type of manufacture churning out a specific model I don't think it should fit in. I'm sure there's still room for debate but even if the "handmade" part of the title is removed there would still be examples of "customer defined spec" knives posted. I still believe we need to trust in the moderators to determine what should be moved or not. Thanks for the thread, Keith...:thumbup:
 
Give David a break, he's a good guy. I know what you're thinking, Dave! No, you can't get them back... :p
 
Jose Reyes said:
This is a good thread with clear intent but I think there needs to be a definition of terms in order to get a clear reply. In my mind if a knife is created as a one of a kind item , or close to it, it should qualify. I don't have anything against using cnc machining or other types of modern technology but if the piece is a pretty much an exact copy of many others in the same style then it would seem to stray from the concept of cutom, even if the buyer had a choice of options. Knives completely made by hand, but by many pair, would seem more difficult to classify. If it's an assembly line type of manufacture churning out a specific model I don't think it should fit in. I'm sure there's still room for debate but even if the "handmade" part of the title is removed there would still be examples of "customer defined spec" knives posted. I still believe we need to trust in the moderators to determine what should be moved or not. Thanks for the thread, Keith...:thumbup:
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Good luck Jose in finding a universally accepted definition, however I believe you have hit on something. I often describe my knives as "one of a kind" knives to guest examining my collection. It seems this alleviates that bewildered look better than my describing them as handmade or customs.

When you think about it, aren't ALL handmade or knives made with non-sophisticated tools/machinery "one of a kind" knives. For example Jerry Fisk has probably made a few hundred Senderos in his career, however each is a one of a kind as apposed to a knife that's components are manufactured on a CNC to be later assembled by one or more technicians.
 
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