So if Busse is gonna use SR101 and the Yard is gonna use 5160...

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Insipid Moniker said:
It would need to be more than a shade. A2 at an Hrc of 60 tests out at 53 joules in c-notch Charpy testing. At the same hardness 3V tests out at 95 joules.
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And it probably is. But once again as a former user of Busse A2, I would not put his A2 at the same level as other A2, just sayin there is a big difference in HT process.
 
Cobalt said:
And it probably is. But once again as a former user of Busse A2, I would not put his A2 at the same level as other A2, just sayin there is a big difference in HT process.
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Heat treat is a big deal, but it's not magic. It certainly isn't going to make a steel able to absorb 40 more joules of energy on impact.

Busse makes great knives all around, and I like SR-101, but 3V is stupid, stupid tough. Like, it doesn't give up THAT much toughness to shock steels like S7 tough. That's why I'm very skeptical that SR-101 beats it in that area. I may well be wrong, but I don't see any compelling evidence towards that. I just think all of us are better off with more facts and fewer mysteries.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Heat treat is a big deal, but it's not magic. It certainly isn't going to make a steel able to absorb 40 more joules of energy on impact.

Busse makes great knives all around, and I like SR-101, but 3V is stupid, stupid tough. Like, it doesn't give up THAT much toughness to shock steels like S7 tough. That's why I'm very skeptical that SR-101 beats it in that area. I may well be wrong, but I don't see any compelling evidence towards that. I just think all of us are better off with more facts and fewer mysteries.
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True, a better HT will get you a few points extra, but a poor HT could loose you many more points and that is my point, lol.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Heat treat is a big deal, but it's not magic. It certainly isn't going to make a steel able to absorb 40 more joules of energy on impact.

Busse makes great knives all around, and I like SR-101, but 3V is stupid, stupid tough. Like, it doesn't give up THAT much toughness to shock steels like S7 tough. That's why I'm very skeptical that SR-101 beats it in that area. I may well be wrong, but I don't see any compelling evidence towards that. I just think all of us are better off with more facts and fewer mysteries.
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+1

Metallurgy is science... some people should just stop take it like voodoo or something:rolleyes:
 
shqxk said:
+1

Metallurgy is science... some people should just stop take it like voodoo or something:rolleyes:
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based on your rolled eyes, I assume you know something we don't so enlighten us, please:rolleyes:
 
I rolled my eyes every time when I saw over hyped fanboy:rolleyes: Something like this

And it probably is. But once again as a former user of Busse A2, I would not put his A2 at the same level as other A2, just sayin there is a big difference in HT process.
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I would absolutely love to know how to heat treat A2 like a wizard and make it distinguished from other:eek:
 
shqxk said:
I rolled my eyes every time when I saw over hyped fanboy:rolleyes: Something like this



I would absolutely love to know how to heat treat A2 like a wizard and make it distinguished from other:eek:
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I get it, you are just trolling here looking to start arguments. I doubt you have any knowledge of anything and are one big blowhard, how's that. Go troll elsewhere. Troll.
 
shqxk said:
I rolled my eyes every time when I saw over hyped fanboy:rolleyes: Something like this

I would absolutely love to know how to heat treat A2 like a wizard and make it distinguished from other:eek:
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There are a couple trains of thought on this. There are the fan boys who think anything is possible if the person doing it is superduper enough and there are the realists who "know" it's all a bunch of bullshit. It's important to realize that reality is somewhere in between and actually quite a bit more complicated.

There is a misconception among somewhat knowledgeable people that heat treating these materials is like baking brownies. And it can be. But there are alternative heat treats that one can use that give different properties.

The industry standard heat treat for A2 that most heat treat shops follow is designed for maximum dimensional stability and minimal risk of cracking. A2 is designed to stabilize retained austenite to reduce growth and dimensional changes from excessive martensite formation which would be a problem for the stamping dies it was designed for.

Cutlery applications have no such constraints and different priorities such as the way the micro structure behaves in thin sections not relevant in a thick stamping die. Knives need a more homogenous structure, otherwise larger carbides, retained austenite and carbon lean martensite all contribute to act like perforations in a postage stamp in thin sections.

A2 is a little like hotdogs, there are lots of different manufacturers and they're free to use different ingredients. Vanadium is expensive, chromium is cheap. When following the industry standard protocols you may see little difference in a higher chrome, lower vanadium A2, but if you're using prequenching the additional vanadium allows grain refinement by fixing boundaries that would dissolve if someone substituted chromium. Prequenching is discussed in "Tool Steels" 5th addition. It's a risky process because, depending on the manufacturer and the condition of the steel, a particular temperature can easily double or halve the grain size. It has effects on other properties as well which are not well understood such as the cohesiveness of various structures and their interaction with each other. And one manufacturer's A2 will behave differently in this than another. And none of this is relevant if you're conforming to the industry standard protocol.

But, you can see, it is an oversimplification to say that A2 is A2 and a wizard can't change it.

A relatively simple heat treat protocol for A2 that performs demonstrably better in a cutlery application is to austenitize two times with a trip to -100F as a part of the second quench (without delay) at a relatively fast quench rate such as a 4 bar atmosphere quench. This, followed by lower temperature tempers (below 500F) and full cryo can give demonstratively better performance in an edge than "industry standard". It's easily distinguished, it's not a secret and it's not rocket science.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
There are a couple trains of thought on this. There are the fan boys who think anything is possible if the person doing it is superduper enough and there are the realists who "know" it's all a bunch of bullshit. It's important to realize that reality is somewhere in between and actually quite a bit more complicated.

There is a misconception among somewhat knowledgeable people that heat treating these materials is like baking brownies. And it can be. But there are alternative heat treats that one can use that give different properties.

The industry standard heat treat for A2 that most heat treat shops follow is designed for maximum dimensional stability and minimal risk of cracking. A2 is designed to stabilize retained austenite to reduce growth and dimensional changes from excessive martensite formation which would be a problem for the stamping dies it was designed for.

Cutlery applications have no such constraints and different priorities such as the way the micro structure behaves in thin sections not relevant in a thick stamping die. Knives need a more homogenous structure, otherwise larger carbides, retained austenite and carbon lean martensite all contribute to act like perforations in a postage stamp in thin sections.

A2 is a little like hotdogs, there are lots of different manufacturers and they're free to use different ingredients. Vanadium is expensive, chromium is cheap. When following the industry standard protocols you may see little difference in a higher chrome, lower vanadium A2, but if you're using prequenching the additional vanadium allows grain refinement by fixing boundaries that would dissolve if someone substituted chromium. Prequenching is discussed in "Tool Steels" 5th addition. It's a risky process because, depending on the manufacturer and the condition of the steel, a particular temperature can easily double or halve the grain size. It has effects on other properties as well which are not well understood such as the cohesiveness of various structures and their interaction with each other. And one manufacturer's A2 will behave differently in this than another. And none of this is relevant if you're conforming to the industry standard protocol.

But, you can see, it is an oversimplification to say that A2 is A2 and a wizard can't change it.

A relatively simple heat treat protocol for A2 that performs demonstrably better in a cutlery application is to austenitize two times with a trip to -100F as a part of the second quench (without delay) at a relatively fast quench rate such as a 4 bar atmosphere quench. This, followed by lower temperature tempers (below 500F) and full cryo can give demonstratively better performance in an edge than "industry standard". It's easily distinguished, it's not a secret and it's not rocket science.
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Great post as always :thumbup:

From what I gather, most tool steel with fair amount of alloy that favor high speed properties, will benefit from rapid quench with subzero/cryo as part of the primary quench and importantly the lower range tempering to avoid secondary hardening. This will give better edge stability and better corrosion resistance
 
Cobalt said:
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I get it, you are just trolling here looking to start arguments. I doubt you have any knowledge of anything and are one big blowhard, how's that. Go troll elsewhere. Troll.
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Wow what a classic fanboy you are:thumbup: Seem like whoever having an argument with you will be accuse as a troll.
 
I forget to mention that Roman Landes is credited as the very first metallurgist who bring up the subzero as part of primary quench and lower tempering in 2009 :thumbup:

I'm not sure which year of your Busse A2 were made thought;)
 
Actually Cobalt, Insipid, and myself were having a fairly civil discussion and amazingly enough no one was ever called a fanboy or a troll even though we didn't agree. I was clearly on the side of 3V out performing SR101 however Cobalt never once called me a troll or fanboy. I would welcome you to the Swamp Rat forum and always encourage people to be part of the discussions here but please leave the name calling at the door it really isn't welcome or needed in the conversation.

Also Nathan that was a fantastic post that really does show tweaks to a HT can change the way an alloy performs but there is no HT that can make an alloy perform beyond what the elements in it will allow.

Also to add I do believe that in 2009 Jerry had started using INFI and was not still currently using A2 at that time. Cobalt would be better to answer this for sure because he is defiantly more into the Busse blades than I am, however I think 2009 was the year Jerry did the rope cutting with the B9 where he ran out of rope before the blade got dull which would clearly mean he had switched to INFI at that time (even though that B9 was M-INFI if memory serves correctly).
 
shqxk said:
I forget to mention that Roman Landes is credited as the very first metallurgist who bring up the subzero as part of primary quench and lower tempering in 2009 :thumbup:

I'm not sure which year of your Busse A2 were made thought;)
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Jerry Busse was using cryo quench in the 90's on A2, and my understanding was that he was doing it in the 1980's as well. AS PART OF THE PRIMARY QUENCH, but Landes may have been the first metallurgist if you exclude knifemakers and sword makers, and gun barrel makers and the aerospace industry as well. A2 Busses were made in the 1990's. Still trolling huh? That was a smart azz comment on your part. You sure you didn't mean Landes in 1969?;)
 
shqxk said:
I rolled my eyes every time when I saw over hyped fanboy:rolleyes:
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Sir, I don't know you, but this post from you started the name-calling. It was a nice discussion with a lot of civil disagreement before you got in. Please don't derail an otherwise good thread, we don't need that in the Swamp.

Thanks,

David
 
Cobalt said:
Jerry Busse was using cryo quench in the 90's on A2, and my understanding was that he was doing it in the 1980's as well. AS PART OF THE PRIMARY QUENCH, but Landes may have been the first metallurgist if you exclude knifemakers and sword makers, and gun barrel makers and the aerospace industry as well. A2 Busses were made in the 1990's. Still trolling huh? That was a smart azz comment on your part. You sure you didn't mean Landes in 1969?;)
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Evidence of your information of it just nothing:rolleyes:

Cryogenic has been use in metal industry for very long time...what a surprise!:yawn: to apply at as quench or after tempering is just an optional

Roman Landes is the first metallurgist who explain the benefit of using subzero/cryo immediately as quench as the austenite will stabilized itself it very short time.

You still miss the point of argument... why not answer how Voodoo made your belove Busse A2 distinguish to others?
 
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