SoCal Mountain Lion Attack

[Blackwind]

Well, I may be wrong about this, but a banning order on the hunting of an animal is usually only introduced when their numbers have dwindled to the point that the males can't find the females to propagate the species.

The next step beyond that is usually extinction.

And if you were threatened by mountain lion in your own back yard, surely it isn't against the law to shoot one?

I would imagine that would constitute self-defence.

Not always.

You can look at more then one example right here in the US. In many of these cases, the laws have been reversed when ...guess what? That species begins to do harm and over populate. Is this the animals fault? Not necessarily. In fact, the majority of the time it is simply due to our continued encroachment on their habitat as the human population continues to grow.

For the record, I have zero issue with laws protecting animals bordering on extinction....mountain lions aren't going extinct. This was law pushed forward by an organization that is/was against so called trophy hunting of mountain lions.

CA law and proposition 117 states....







Mountain lions that kill livestock or threaten humans can still be killed. If the Department of Fish and Game finds that livestock has been killed, they must issue a permit to kill the lion within 48 hours of receiving a request for such a permit by the rancher. The permit is valid for ten days. The hunt must begin no more than a mile from the killed livestock and must end within a ten mile circle from the livestock.

Written permits are required unless a verbal permit would materially aide in the hunt. Lions killed under a depredation permit must be reported to DFG within 24 hours by phone, or if a phone is not practical, within 5 days in writing. The Department must necropsy all carcasses, which must be delivered to the Department.

Lions caught in the act of killing livestock may be killed on the spot, and the kill must be reported to DFG within 72 hours.

No leghold or metal jawed traps or poison or snares may be used to kill depredating lions. Mountain lions may be killed in self-defense or if the lion threatens public safety. Lions may no longer be pursued by dogs for training purposes. Lions shot in other states may not be brought into California.

 

[reconranger]

In one mountain area where we frequently ride our ATV's, there is a heard of Big Horn Sheep that is considered "endangered". They went and passed the no mountain lion hunting law, and now the lion numbers have increased so much that they are eating all the sheep!

What is fish and games solution??? Ban off-road riding so we don't "bother" the sheep..........

 

[Zombie Zeke]

In one mountain area where we frequently ride our ATV's, there is a heard of Big Horn Sheep that is considered "endangered". They went and passed the no mountain lion hunting law, and now the lion numbers have increased so much that they are eating all the sheep!

What is fish and games solution??? Ban off-road riding so we don't "bother" the sheep..........

.

Not be morbid but here in California I feel a bit oppressed by big brother.

Where are the Big Horns at I'd love to check that out...I found a herd of Elk out past McKittrick going north.

 

[hlee]

Mountain lions have no natural predators. Mountain lions have an abundant food source in deer and now humans in CA. In order to control the numbers such that they donot over populate their dwindling habitat, control measures should be taken to manage their numbers. Sort of like Californians.

 

[runningboar]

Mountain lions were never in danger of extinction, pantywaste dumbass's didn't like the way they were hunted and were able to convince other ignorant people it was wrong so it was banned. Sorry folks, maybe like the good book says in heaven the lion will lay down with the lamb, but in this world sport hunting is a neccessary evil. Chris

 

[shecky]

CA is reaping the rewards of banning mountain lion hunting and living in mountain lion country.

Yup. Thanks to banning hunting of mountain lion hunting, attacks may surpass incidents of death by lightning strike.

 

[Zombie Zeke]

Yup. Thanks to banning hunting of mountain lion hunting, attacks may surpass incidents of death by lightning strike.

My house got hit by lightning, it fried everything electrical through the house and sent a fire up through the wall next to the kitchen. So as to your regard for low probability occurences, they happen. I personally would be happy to practice taxidermy on a big kitty IF it had attacked me or mine.

 

[reconranger]

.Where are the Big Horns at I'd love to check that out...

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200103/sheep.asp

It's easy to see sheep in the Borrego area. I have to shoo them off the trail sometimes just to get by.

There is a pretty good size heard around San Gorgonio Mt. as well.

 

[billym]

Mountain lions were never in danger of extinction,

I am not totally sure that statement is accurate. Are there any Mtn Lions in New England or the rest of the east? They used to exist there but were wiped out. The Catamount of New England has long disappeard. So at least the lions were wiped out in certain locals.
Bill

 

[kgd]

I find it all rather odd that on one hand members argue that U.S. Fish and Game come up with these silly laws that make little sense yet on the other hand suggest that the same organization could effectively manage the populations at large through selective culls.

One thing that we as a species really suck at is managing wild game populations and natural resources. This is largely because we don't link sound land-use planning and habitat preservation concepts to game management. So as the habitat dwindles, do we continue to increase culls to keep things manageable?

I think there should be a game plan to establish habitat first, followed by an open dialogue with the public to ask what could realistically be expected in terms of ecosystem components and sustainability. At least this keeps the left hand (game culls) from conflicting with the right (land-use zoning).

 

[shecky]

My house got hit by lightning, it fried everything electrical through the house and sent a fire up through the wall next to the kitchen. So as to your regard for low probability occurences, they happen. I personally would be happy to practice taxidermy on a big kitty IF it had attacked me or mine.

Point is there's been only a handful of mountain lion attacks in CA in the last hundred years. Despite the rarity, they're second only to shark attacks in being blown way out of proportion. Among survivalists/outdoorsman/knifenuts, mt lion attack pulls ahead of zombie uprising and Soviet takeover on the list of things to worry about, but just barely. If anything, it's remarkable that so few have occurred over that time considering how the (human) population has boomed.

Banning mt lion hunting may or may not be wise govt. policy. But to declare mt. lion hunting ban responsible for the recent (non) increase in attacks is to vastly overstate the case.

 

[Codger_64]

I am not totally sure that statement is accurate. Are there any Mtn Lions in New England or the rest of the east? They used to exist there but were wiped out. The Catamount of New England has long disappeard. So at least the lions were wiped out in certain locals.
Bill

Extirpation is not the same as extinct.

http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2006/06/20.htm

The last native wild mountain lion in Missouri was killed in 1927. They were extirpated from Iowa by 1867, Nebraska by 1890, Kansas by 1904 and from Wisconsin by 1908. Though populations of mountain lions survived in remote mountainous terrain in western states, no verifiable evidence exists to suggest that they survived anywhere in the Midwest, outside of the Black Hills of South Dakota...

Mountain lion populations in western states have grown recently, and as the habitats fill up, new animals born each year have to travel farther locate suitable living space. In the Midwest and eastern Texas, biologists have confirmed physical evidence of mountain lions at least 65 times since 1990.

Recently several mountain lions made headlines when they were killed by cars, trains or police officers in suburban neighborhoods in Midwestern towns. Some biologists believe that they made use of travel corridors along the Missouri River and other rivers. Young male mountain lions have wandered into Fulton, Missouri; Kansas City, Missouri; South Sioux City, Nebraska; Yankton, South Dakota; and Omaha, Nebraska. In central Iowa, hunters killed one young male lion and a trail camera caught another on film.

Biologists in South Dakota estimate that each year 20 to 25 yearling mountain lions—mostly males—are leaving the Black Hills, forced out by adult males that already occupy the best habitats. One animal was fitted with a radio collar that had been attached during a study of lion survival. It moved 667 miles before it was struck by a train in northern Oklahoma. Another radio-marked male traveled more than 500 miles into northern Minnesota. A recent report documented a radio-marked female from Utah that moved more than 830 miles, roaming through parts of Wyoming and Colorado.

There are no whitetail deer in my front yard. There were at one time but are no longer there. They are in my woods and my garden. They are not extinct.

Codger

Cali: http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

 

[Zombie Zeke]

Point is there's been only a handful of mountain lion attacks in CA in the last hundred years. Despite the rarity, they're second only to shark attacks in being blown way out of proportion. Among survivalists/outdoorsman/knifenuts, mt lion attack pulls ahead of zombie uprising and Soviet takeover on the list of things to worry about, but just barely. If anything, it's remarkable that so few have occurred over that time considering how the population has boomed.

Banning mt lion hunting may or may not be wise govt. policy. But to declare mt. lion hunting ban responsible for the recent (non) increase in attacks is to vastly overstate the case.

In as much the ban on killing mountain lions does noone any good, just make a season for it and bring it back in line with coyote and feral hog hunting.

The statement you make about the sensationalism associated with the cats is justified but such is the case in California's yellow media.

As to your assertion about survivalists/outdoorsman/knifenuts thats a helluva moniker. But it seems those of that hyphenated breed would be too paranoid/paralyzed by what double bit ax to use/broke to care.

 

[kgd]

Extirpation is not the same as extinct.

http://mdc.mo.gov/conmag/2006/06/20.htm

The last native wild mountain lion in Missouri was killed in 1927. They were extirpated from Iowa by 1867, Nebraska by 1890, Kansas by 1904 and from Wisconsin by 1908. Though populations of mountain lions survived in remote mountainous terrain in western states, no verifiable evidence exists to suggest that they survived anywhere in the Midwest, outside of the Black Hills of South Dakota...

Mountain lion populations in western states have grown recently, and as the habitats fill up, new animals born each year have to travel farther locate suitable living space. In the Midwest and eastern Texas, biologists have confirmed physical evidence of mountain lions at least 65 times since 1990.

Recently several mountain lions made headlines when they were killed by cars, trains or police officers in suburban neighborhoods in Midwestern towns. Some biologists believe that they made use of travel corridors along the Missouri River and other rivers. Young male mountain lions have wandered into Fulton, Missouri; Kansas City, Missouri; South Sioux City, Nebraska; Yankton, South Dakota; and Omaha, Nebraska. In central Iowa, hunters killed one young male lion and a trail camera caught another on film.

Biologists in South Dakota estimate that each year 20 to 25 yearling mountain lions—mostly males—are leaving the Black Hills, forced out by adult males that already occupy the best habitats. One animal was fitted with a radio collar that had been attached during a study of lion survival. It moved 667 miles before it was struck by a train in northern Oklahoma. Another radio-marked male traveled more than 500 miles into northern Minnesota. A recent report documented a radio-marked female from Utah that moved more than 830 miles, roaming through parts of Wyoming and Colorado.

There are no whitetail deer in my front yard. There were at one time but are no longer there. They are in my woods and my garden. They are not extinct.

Codger

Cali: http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

Yeah Codger - and dispersal happens. The adults set up their home ranges and they provide a propagule source. Problem is when none of those propagules survive as a result of insufficient habitat - you have a population bottleneck. Not extinct, no not yet, but going that way and losing genetic diversity at breakneck speed.

 

[shecky]

In as much the ban on killing mountain lions does noone any good, just make a season for it and bring it back in line with coyote and feral hog hunting.

Yeah. I'm not going to defend the ban. I just won't lay blame to it that it doesn't deserve.

The statement you make about the sensationalism associated with the cats is justified but such is the case in California's yellow media.

Yellow media knows no state lines. Last time I saw a shark attack story, was when I was in St. Louis!

As to your assertion about survivalists/outdoorsman/knifenuts thats a helluva moniker. But it seems those of that hyphenated breed would be too paranoid/paralyzed by what double bit ax to use/broke to care.

Yeah, that hits close to home!

 

[mkhop]

If you are atacked by a lion that rarity of attacks goes up to 100% and IMHO I don't think there is any question that a couger hase the tools and can kill any dog including wolves when is the last time you have heard of a K9 breaking a deers neck with one swat or bite and twist.

 

[reconranger]

While trail running in the So. Calif. hills, I once came around a blind corner and was face-to-face with a bobcat. Off to the side of the trail there was a considerable noise in the bushes, so I assume it may have had kittens in there or was interupted in the middle of making a kill.

There wan't much I could do! I tried to stand my ground and look big and intimidating, but the cat advanced on me. I threw everything I could at it and kicked dirt in its face, none of which helped much. All I could do was slowly back off, but for every baby step I took backward the cat would just advance on me and close the distance. It kept the distance between us constant at about one yard, snarling and slapping with its paws. This standoff went on for several minutes!

Finally, I think I had backed off far enough from whatever was in the bushes, and the cat broke off and ran in that direction.

A little housecat can shred you pretty good! And a bobcat is only 1/3 the size of the mountain lion. So if you are out in the bush, you had better be prepared for anything and everything that might come along! Anything can happen, no matter how low the probability might seem sitting there at your computer!!!

 

[misanthropist]

I also grew up on Vancouver Island, which as stated has the largest incidence of cougar attacks in the world. When I was a kid, they used to have to shut down an elementary school every so often on account of a cougar in the area, or make parents come pick up their kids because there was a cougar sitting around waiting in a tree on the school grounds. They sure are pretty.

Funny cougar related story - one time I was out camping with some friends. We had hiked down railroad tracks for about ten miles and ended up seperating into two groups - the tall guys and the short guy and the girls. Up in the fast-walking tall group, we had gotten a fair ways ahead and I said, "hey, around the next bend, let's hide and start following the slow guys."

So when they came around the next corner we heard them bitching about what pricks we were and how we were going too fast. We followed them for a while chucking the odd rock at them from the trees, but they didn't notice us. So eventually we got bored and decided to catch up to them.

So we went running up to them but on the way, my axe came loose from my bag and gashed the hell out of my hand. I probably needed ten or twelve stitches (which of course I never bothered to get) and it was bleeding everywhere. I said, "okay, I have a good idea for a joke. Start yelling and get their attention." We started yelling and ran up to them. Of course the girls started freaking out about my hand and they all asked what had happened.

"I can't believe you didn't see," I said. "You really didn't see that cougar attack me? We tumbled down that hill off the tracks and Adam and Ross helped me fight it off. I had to use this hand to keep it from biting my neck!"

Naturally all the blood made it pretty convincing but eventually we had to explain it, and that girl and I split up shortly after. She was pretty upset, but deep down, I hope she realized what a funny joke it was.


I taped up my hand with duct tape and by the time we came back from the camping trip it was probably too late for stitches anyway.

 

[billym]

Codger,
Extirpation= eradication, removal, to destroy completely, to wipe out.
Sounds pretty close. Extirpation is considered extinction on a local level.
Still my point was that they have been run out or eradicated from a majority of their original natural habitat.
Bill

 

[Codger_64]

So... evacuate California and move everyone to Baja Mexico and let the lions re-expand their range? Or control populations to sustainable levels on the range they have remaining? As you can see, their natural inclination is to expand their range and supplement their diets with pets and people.