SoCal Mountain Lion Attack

[Leanwolf]

GERBER BLADES - "LW- That is accurate. They are thriving in most western states."

G.B., you ain't kiddin'!

As I write this, I have a 2007/2008 Idaho Mountain Lion tag in my wallet .... unfilled, unfortunately. During the hunting season -- Aug. 30, 2007, through March 31, 2008 --, I always carry a tag. While hunting elk and deer, etc., I've seen tracks and lion kills, but not yet the elusive lion. If I see one, I'll kill it and tag it.

That's a nice lion in your picture, too. Handgun? Rifle? Archery?

L.W.

 

[Gerberblades]

Whitetails in Arizona????

Yes, there are white-tailed deer in AZ. They are Coues (pronounced "cows")
deer (Odocoileus virginianus couesi) a smaller subspecies of the white-tail. They are often regarded as being the most difficult deer to hunt. I'll try to get a pic
later.

GB

 

[Gerberblades]

GERBER BLADES - "LW- That is accurate. They are thriving in most western states."

G.B., you ain't kiddin'!

As I write this, I have a 2007/2008 Idaho Mountain Lion tag in my wallet .... unfilled, unfortunately. During the hunting season -- Aug. 30, 2007, through March 31, 2008 --, I always carry a tag. While hunting elk and deer, etc., I've seen tracks and lion kills, but not yet the elusive lion. If I see one, I'll kill it and tag it.

That's a nice lion in your picture, too. Handgun? Rifle? Archery?

L.W.

Hi, L.W.- Thank you. It was taken with a handgun. But not before it holed up in a cave and played "catch up" on some hounds.

Have you ever tried calling in a lion?

GB

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Yes, there are white-tailed deer in AZ. They are Coues (pronounced "cows")
deer (Odocoileus virginianus couesi) a smaller subspecies of the white-tail. They are often regarded as being the most difficult deer to hunt. I'll try to get a pic
later.

GB

If you type 'Odocoileus virginianus couesi' in Google Image Search, you will find a ton of pictures.

Doc

 

[Leanwolf]

GERBER BLADES - "LW, Have you ever tried calling in a lion?"

No, but I know people who have. I have a couple of calls I use for coyotes that I've thought about using to call Mountain lions: both "wounded" or "dying" rabbit calls. But, I don't want to try and call a lion in while I'm alone and have no one to watch my back. Those big boys are a lot faster on the attack than I am.

I know a guy here who was turkey hunting up in the Boise Nat'l. Forest. He was calling with his turkey call and after awhile, thought he saw something move off to the side. He looked over and about ten yards from him was a Mountain lion crouched and eyeballing him.

He said it scared the living bejesus out of him! He started to raise his shotgun but the lion ran away. So they will come in to not only "dying rabbit" calls, but sometimes to turkey calls.

I will probably give it a try here one of these days. No need to let a lion tag go to waste! :thumbup:

Best regards.

L.W.

 

[Buffalohump]

I somehow doubt they lose their fear of humans after only a couple of generations. I would imagine those instincts run deep, for good reason. I think there's more to wildlife management than shooting them on sight. Granted, this is a dangerous animal, but again I would rather there was an excess of them, than a risk of them becoming endangered. If you want to label me a bunny-hugging 'enviromentalist' for having that view, knock yourself out.

Just for the record, I have no problem with hunting (within reason). Hunters contribute considerably to the upkeep of the wild places, by paying for their privileges. But too many large predators have been shot to the brink of extinction in the past. The same debate is currently underway regarding the wolf population in Montana, since they were re-introduced to Yellowstone. I like the idea of wolves in Yellowstone, but the farmers who's livestock are being taken by them have a different view. I say 'live and let live' wherever possible. If lives are threatened, by all means act in self-defence. If I was hiking in an area where mt lion lived, for damn sure I'd be armed. I might be an 'environmentalist' but I'm not an idiot.

Buffuloehump,
I never said anything about hunting them to extinction.
You are obviously ignorant of what led to the ban on lion hunting in Ca. it was by popular vote pushed by anti-hunting groups. There was NO basis on biology whatever.
And predators have a way of losing the fear of humans when they are not hunted for a couple of (their) generations.

I will have to say that here, our Conservation Dept. is great, it is led by a commision that is not political, the decisions are based on biology. They have done good work bringing game populations back. A 1/8th cent sales tax was voted in when I was a kid, sometime in the 70's to fund it, and they do great work.

 

[Gene Martin]

Buffalohump,

As a retired Calif game warden, I'd like to clarify a few things for you.

First, game management is about maintaining the population for optimum yield. That means so they can be taken without damaging the population. Next, the lion hunting ban in Calif is not nased on sound game management but politics. As is the current protection federally for sea otters and salmon here in the Pacific Northwest.

Game management is more influemced by politics than biology. It's been that way for 100 years.

Sportsmen pay special taxes, aside from hunting and fishing licenses, for habitat improvement for a bunch of game animals. It's Federal law and they are called Dingle-Johnson funds, after the Congressional authors.

Sportsmen pay for habitat improvement, game managers, game wardens and a bunch of other things. Environmentalists pay for lobbyists, not anything else. They contribute nothing. They do pay lip service, but it is hunters and fishermen who pay for the habitat and services.

Lions have lost their fear of humans, at least in California. Attacks are becoming increasingly common, both on pets and humans. They've had several generations to do it, and they have succeeded. They make meals of pets and lay on porches to digest their lunches.

A couple of years ago there was huge outcry about the Dept of Fish and Game shooting a full grown tiger that was living in a riverbed, "living off the land." Funny thing is, no one ever said it was their tiger. It just magically appeared.

The wildlife belongs to everyone, but only the consumptive users pay to protect or manage it. They make up the minority. However, when they are gone, those folks who want to regulate it away still won't pay for management or enforcement. That's just not their way.

Off the soap box.

Gene

 

[Buffalohump]

Well, yes... I believe I did mention that in my post.

But thanks for clarifying :thumbup:

Just for the record, I have no problem with hunting (within reason). Hunters contribute considerably to the upkeep of the wild places, by paying for their privileges.

 

[Gerberblades]

I somehow doubt they lose their fear of humans after only a couple of generations. I would imagine those instincts run deep, for good reason. I think there's more to wildlife management than shooting them on sight. Granted, this is a dangerous animal, but again I would rather there was an excess of them, than a risk of them becoming endangered. If you want to label me a bunny-hugging 'enviromentalist' for having that view, knock yourself out.

Just for the record, I have no problem with hunting (within reason). Hunters contribute considerably to the upkeep of the wild places, by paying for their privileges. But too many large predators have been shot to the brink of extinction in the past. The same debate is currently underway regarding the wolf population in Montana, since they were re-introduced to Yellowstone. I like the idea of wolves in Yellowstone, but the farmers who's livestock are being taken by them have a different view. I say 'live and let live' wherever possible. If lives are threatened, by all means act in self-defence. If I was hiking in an area where mt lion lived, for damn sure I'd be armed. I might be an 'environmentalist' but I'm not an idiot.

Mark- It doesn't even take a single generation for a Mt. lion or bobcat to learn that humans aren't a threat. Its all about adaptability. A bobcat will spend hours watching humans go about their lives and if they don't feel intimidated, they may take up residence in a yard and drop a litter of kittens.

A Mt. lion has a larger yard at about 70-100 square miles in size. After watching hundreds of hikers and bikers pass through its range without incident, what does a lion (or its offspring) have to fear from humans? As cartoonist Gary Larsen put it, "No claws, no horns, no fangs, just soft and pink!"

Mt. lions are not threatened or endangered or near the brink of extinction. Contrary to Jane Goodall and the cougar coalition, or whatever they call themselves, lions are doing quite well without their help.

GB

 

[Buffalohump]

Very pleased to hear it... :thumbup:

Mt. lions are not threatened or endangered or near the brink of extinction. Contrary to Jane Goodall and the cougar coalition, or whatever they call themselves, lions are doing quite well without their help.

GB

 

[Zombie Zeke]

Btw.

THe fellas other dog in the original story was released from the Vet yesterday, he looks like he got mauled pretty throroughly. The fella's response when asked about the possibility of Garfield making a comeback was classic Southern Californian. "I hope nothing else happens, hopefully the police will get it."

The police. A mountain lion. moron.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

I have been following this thread with interest and kind of smugly, I suppose - "Geez, I feel bad for those guys".

So, tonight I went into Indigo (a book store) and the first thing I saw (no, not a cougar) was Canadian Geographic magazine on the rack with the cover enblazoned with, "THE CAT IS BACK - COUGARS PROWL ONTARIO AGAIN!" Part of the story can be seen here.

So much for being smug.

Doc

 

[led4them]

I have heard stories since little that they were in the deep Ozarks, even though the MDC refused to admit it, that they never were "hunted out" of Mo. I can believe it, it is rugged country and I wonder how many people never see them when they are right in the brush, or up a tree watching.

I think they are more of them around than people realize, they are an ambush predator so it is the nature of these cats to not be seen.

I can understand Buffulohump's concern for our big cat, but it's range goes from North America, to South America, hardly a limited range.

t would be akin to us here in the America's telling them how to manage the African Lion

 

[Buffalohump]

Well, maybe I'm an idealist, but I like to think the natural resources of this planet are everyone's responsibility. Everyone who gives a sh*t that is...

Organisations like CITES make decisions on behalf of all countries in the world, on issues like the trade in African elephant ivory, for example. Many people in the USA have a direct influence on those decisions and I have no problem with that. I think their intentions are right on, even though they're not always in touch with the finer nuances of the African socio-economic landscape.

Obviously I have no direct influence on how you all manage your wildlife, I was simply voicing an opinion.

I have the same opinion about the Bengal Tiger, and the Russian Snow Leopard... I would just like to know there are sustainable populations in the wild. I think the world would be an immensely poorer place without them.

Besides, National Geographic on Sunday nights would be hella boring without the predators, dontcha think?

 

[Gerberblades]

Well, maybe I'm an idealist, but I like to think the natural resources of this planet are everyone's responsibility. Everyone who gives a sh*t that is...

Organisations like CITES make decisions on behalf of all countries in the world, on issues like the trade in African elephant ivory, for example. Many people in the USA have a direct influence on those decisions and I have no problem with that. I think their intentions are right on, even though they're not always in touch with the finer nuances of the African socio-economic landscape.

Obviously I have no direct influence on how you all manage your wildlife, I was simply voicing an opinion.

I have the same opinion about the Bengal Tiger, and the Russian Snow Leopard... I would just like to know there are sustainable populations in the wild. I think the world would be an immensely poorer place without them.

Besides, National Geographic on Sunday nights would be hella boring without the predators, dontcha think?

Mark- I don't think anyone is trying to unload on you here. I'm certainly not. The predator issues have become very contentious on this side, at times comparable to the cheetah situation in Namibia.

I believe most agree that proper management is necessary but the grief is over total closures on lion hunting as occurred in California or a ban on trapping which happened in AZ.

These closures preclude traditional management like regulated hunting. These changes were largely motivated by urban/suburban dwellers and funded by out of state organizations. Their goal is a total ban on hunting. Period.

The CITES total ban on African ivory was somewhat ill-conceived. Departments like the South African National Parks Board and the Zimbabwe Department of Parks & Wildlife depended on the sale of legal, Department-culled elephant ivory to fund law enforcement and other missions.

You're right-predators are exciting to watch on the tube. And they keep you on your toes in the field.

GB

 

[Buffalohump]

Hey, I'm cool...

I'm not in favour of a total ban on hunting, I want that to be clear. Although I personally find trophy hunting a bit sad. If a guy wants something for the pot, that's another story. I doubt cougars are being hunted for their meat.

There will always be debate on the subject, no doubt. But there are numerous instances of animals being hunted (by legit hunters and poachers) almost to the brink of extinction and I gave two well-known examples of this in an earlier mail. Its not just hunting. Obviously habitat encroachment is another problem. But many predators in the past (wolves are another example) were shot on sight.

Unfortunately it is the big predators that usually suffer the most because they need the most space and are perceived as threats to the human/livestock population.

I just don't want to live in a world where the only big predators around are in zoos. I think that would totally suck ass.

Mark