I am no marketing expert either, but if sog decides to put these on the shelves of stores like Walmarts, Kmarts, etc. then i would imagine they would sell alot of them. To me most people who go into these stores looking to buy a knife are not interested in buying a Benchmade, Spyderco, Bob Lumm design knife or the others they have copied when they can get the imported copies for half the price. Sure they can get Byrd knives or even look online and maybe find a Benchmade Red Class for the same price, or get a descent Kershaw at that same Walmarts for 10 dollars more, but I dont think ive ran across alot of people who even heard of Spyderco, the ones who know of Benchmade or even Kershaw think nice knives but too expensive for me. You mention mall ninja id bet thats the type of customer this line is aimed at. I would agree that it's wrong to blatantly steal other companies designs but if they decide to cater to the customer I mentioned earlier in this post then its not exactly a mistake. At the very least what does that customer know he or she just got a descent knife for 40 bucks they dont care if it looks like an endura or a rift, made of 8r13mov or whatever its called or s30v, they probably could care less about the edge retention of either steel so long as their 10 dollar pull through sharpener works. Sog probably just found a customer to sell junk knives to and will make alot of money in the process wich is basicly what they are suppose to be doing. Sounds like what Gerber did.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
SOG's Official Response
- Thread starter Kaizen1
- Start date
- Status
I am no marketing expert either, but if sog decides to put these on the shelves of stores like Walmarts, Kmarts, etc. then i would imagine they would sell alot of them. To me most people who go into these stores looking to buy a knife are not interested in buying a Benchmade, Spyderco, Bob Lumm design knife or the others they have copied when they can get the imported copies for half the price. Sure they can get Byrd knives or even look online and maybe find a Benchmade Red Class for the same price, or get a descent Kershaw at that same Walmarts for 10 dollars more, but I dont think ive ran across alot of people who even heard of Spyderco, the ones who know of Benchmade or even Kershaw think nice knives but too expensive for me. You mention mall ninja id bet thats the type of customer this line is aimed at. I would agree that it's wrong to blatantly steal other companies designs but if they decide to cater to the customer I mentioned earlier in this post then its not exactly a mistake. At the very least what does that customer know he or she just got a descent knife for 40 bucks they dont care if it looks like an endura or a rift, made of 8r13mov or whatever its called or s30v, they probably could care less about the edge retention of either steel so long as their 10 dollar pull through sharpener works. Sog probably just found a customer to sell junk knives to and will make alot of money in the process wich is basicly what they are suppose to be doing. Sounds like what Gerber did.
People who say that the BM Pika looks more like the BM AFCK than a Spyderco model are actually saying that the BM Pika looks like a BM that was based on a Spyderco model.
Thanks, I would also like to add that the pika also is basicly an economical remake of the ascent wich i also had and miss, now im thinking of getting a pikachu, lol, to replace the ascent that I got to replace the AFCK.
Dont forget the e-tool and folding saw clones or there new flashlight and mini toolclip also now that I think about it that new Ranger knife looks alot like a Cold Steel recon scout
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2005
- Messages
- 3,652
Lol.
First came the Eclipse, which I've had several versions of, but the name was later changed to Ascent, for what I've read were legal reasons.Lol.
Never heard of the Eclipse would love to read more about it , perhaps maybe you could give me a link or something to what you read bout it being legal id apreciate it alot
I agree :thumbup:.
They're looking at a public that shops for knives in stores like that, people who do not collect knives or participate in knife forums. We the knife nuts who get offended by their policies are just collateral damage that will make a very small impact on their overall sales.
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2005
- Messages
- 3,652
Never heard of the Eclipse would love to read more about it , perhaps maybe you could give me a link or something to what you read bout it being legal id apreciate it alot
Didn't mean to confuse you. The Eclipse is what Benchmade originally called what later became the Ascent.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,901
This statement alone is very telling to me. It's complete hypocrisy in my opinion. I can understand knives having similar properties and resemblance but these push it too far IMO.
I have always found one word that seems to stand out to me when I think of reputable companies in the knife industry....."Integrity".
I am not a SOG hater. As a matter of fact I don't own one, and never have but it's very sad to see this kind of blatant, yes, I said blatant ripping off of other designs.
I have read Sals response here and over at Spyderco Forums. As always, a class act. But, just because he doesn't choose to be critical does not mean that others cannot.
When I think of knives (seen not owned) like the Flash, Tomcat, Aegis and others, I see innovation and creativity which just makes me scratch my head as to why they have taken this road.
They had designs that showed class and greatness. This new line seems to have taken a left turn on mediocre. Just my humble opinion though.
I'm not really worried about it, nor do I think the companies whose innovations were stole from should. I had one SOG knife, and that'll be the only one I will ever touch. That one "used" the axis lock(see arc) and extremely under engineered in the liner department around the axis stud(where all forces are transfered from the blade to the handle i.e. a critical shear section). This POS had a gritty action, bad finish, and overall poor performance with blade play for days. I'll stick with companies that design their own pieces and therefore know how to build them.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2000
- Messages
- 3,794
That is a logical fallacy I think. What you are omitting deliberately, is the Spyderco model - Delica.People who say that the BM Pika looks more like the BM AFCK than a Spyderco model are actually saying that the BM Pika looks like a BM that was based on a Spyderco model.
And once you put it back in the sentence, the statement is 100% true, Pika looks a lot more like BM AFCK than Spyderco Delica.
And it doesn't diminish Spyderco achievements in any way.
Interesting. I never knew that.
Kaizen1
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2006
- Messages
- 6,314
I don't see the fallacy that you're referring to. If I understand him correctly, he's saying that the AFCK is/was "based on a Spyderco model (presumably the Delica)" and that a copy of the AFCK is essentially a copy of the "Spyderco model." I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the statement, I'm just talking about your point on the supposed logical fallacy.
Hi! This i my first time posting anything.
So I've been reading everybody's comments about SOG's "blatant ripoff" of various manufacturers' product lines; the Spyderco Endura/Delica being the one which seems to have generated the most outcry. (Vicious bunch, those Spyderco fans, aren't they? I understand; I'm a huge Spydie fan too!)
I'm a big fan of certain products from both manufacturers, and have used both manufacturers' products in the field during my military stint, and as a civilian. I'll probably stick with both makers' products when I enter law enforcement here in the immediate future. That having been said, I will readily acknowledge that there appears to be some heavy copying involved here; but read the statement below first.
"...In 2009, SOG partnered with MCC Capital Partners, a private equity firm specializing in the growth of micro and middle market branded consumer products companies. MCC will provide financial and management experience to the company, as well as access to capital, allowing Mr. Frazer to concentrate on continued new product design and development. This will give the company the foundation to efficiently and professionally service its growing list of customers, while preserving the SOG traditions of product quality, innovation, and strength of brand...."
This comes directly from SOG's website, under their company story-type heading (every company's got one). To my mind, I see no surprise in the fact that this inane and stupid change in SOG's marketing and product line comes directly on the heels of a private investor gaining a controlling interest in the company. I personally have felt that SOG has taken a serious wrong turn, product-wise, in the past few years. I like mid-level priced folders and fixed blades, and I really don't care how "pretty" they are, as long as they function (Glock, anyone??). I don't like SOG's new "billboarding" of their knives- putting their logo on every single part of the knife (see the Aegis, a knife I otherwise like). Stop putting your name all over your stuff; if it's a great knife, don't worry- we'll buy it! And SOG, stop the idiotic "dinosaur SOGzilla" marketing- you don't need it! Your company has a great reputation (for now); stand on that. Period.
All that having been said, my real worry with the SOGzilla is that they compromised the blade's strength, with that itty-bitty little cutout in the thumb hole. Making it lower strength just to copy a proven design? There was an outcry when Benchmade copied the round hole and Spyderco-esque blade shapes years ago, but it was at least done right. I might buy the SOGzilla as a cheap, all-purpose EDC/Emergency Tactical blade, bearing in mind six things:
1. That thumb hole gets closed up!
2. I can get it for about the same price as a Byrd, with comparable quality.
3. I like SOG's "bayonet" deep carry pocket clip.
4. I won't cry my eyes out if it's lost or broken.
5. I don't care about looks or country of origin (so long as machining and quality controls are present).
6. I like the blade tip geometry a little more than my Delica/Endura (not quite so Wharncliffey).
I think if SOG just gets back to basics, and fires its marketing department, they'll be just fine. Hiring R. Lee Ermey isn't the answer; building good products is. They make great multitools; still make some great fixed blades. A few folders of theirs are great too; the Twitch series are excellently constructed- fine machining, tight tolerances, thin laminate-esque in construction, great heat treat- good knives. I've had a Twitch XL for years, and while it's an ugly, mismatched looking knife, it performs beautifully, stays sharp, and is rock solid in construction.
Just my extended thoughts, here.
Oh, and as far as the great-priced EDC/tactical blades being produced in China goes, you may as well get used to it; it's simply becoming too expensive to manufacture a quality product for cheap right here. Even the much revered Sal & company at Spyderco are doing it....
...and if SOG had just put "We love Sal Glesser" above the SOGzilla online and in catalogs, we'd just all be complaining about Cold Steel again....
So I've been reading everybody's comments about SOG's "blatant ripoff" of various manufacturers' product lines; the Spyderco Endura/Delica being the one which seems to have generated the most outcry. (Vicious bunch, those Spyderco fans, aren't they? I understand; I'm a huge Spydie fan too!)
I'm a big fan of certain products from both manufacturers, and have used both manufacturers' products in the field during my military stint, and as a civilian. I'll probably stick with both makers' products when I enter law enforcement here in the immediate future. That having been said, I will readily acknowledge that there appears to be some heavy copying involved here; but read the statement below first.
"...In 2009, SOG partnered with MCC Capital Partners, a private equity firm specializing in the growth of micro and middle market branded consumer products companies. MCC will provide financial and management experience to the company, as well as access to capital, allowing Mr. Frazer to concentrate on continued new product design and development. This will give the company the foundation to efficiently and professionally service its growing list of customers, while preserving the SOG traditions of product quality, innovation, and strength of brand...."
This comes directly from SOG's website, under their company story-type heading (every company's got one). To my mind, I see no surprise in the fact that this inane and stupid change in SOG's marketing and product line comes directly on the heels of a private investor gaining a controlling interest in the company. I personally have felt that SOG has taken a serious wrong turn, product-wise, in the past few years. I like mid-level priced folders and fixed blades, and I really don't care how "pretty" they are, as long as they function (Glock, anyone??). I don't like SOG's new "billboarding" of their knives- putting their logo on every single part of the knife (see the Aegis, a knife I otherwise like). Stop putting your name all over your stuff; if it's a great knife, don't worry- we'll buy it! And SOG, stop the idiotic "dinosaur SOGzilla" marketing- you don't need it! Your company has a great reputation (for now); stand on that. Period.
All that having been said, my real worry with the SOGzilla is that they compromised the blade's strength, with that itty-bitty little cutout in the thumb hole. Making it lower strength just to copy a proven design? There was an outcry when Benchmade copied the round hole and Spyderco-esque blade shapes years ago, but it was at least done right. I might buy the SOGzilla as a cheap, all-purpose EDC/Emergency Tactical blade, bearing in mind six things:
1. That thumb hole gets closed up!
2. I can get it for about the same price as a Byrd, with comparable quality.
3. I like SOG's "bayonet" deep carry pocket clip.
4. I won't cry my eyes out if it's lost or broken.
5. I don't care about looks or country of origin (so long as machining and quality controls are present).
6. I like the blade tip geometry a little more than my Delica/Endura (not quite so Wharncliffey).
I think if SOG just gets back to basics, and fires its marketing department, they'll be just fine. Hiring R. Lee Ermey isn't the answer; building good products is. They make great multitools; still make some great fixed blades. A few folders of theirs are great too; the Twitch series are excellently constructed- fine machining, tight tolerances, thin laminate-esque in construction, great heat treat- good knives. I've had a Twitch XL for years, and while it's an ugly, mismatched looking knife, it performs beautifully, stays sharp, and is rock solid in construction.
Just my extended thoughts, here.
Oh, and as far as the great-priced EDC/tactical blades being produced in China goes, you may as well get used to it; it's simply becoming too expensive to manufacture a quality product for cheap right here. Even the much revered Sal & company at Spyderco are doing it....
...and if SOG had just put "We love Sal Glesser" above the SOGzilla online and in catalogs, we'd just all be complaining about Cold Steel again....
Kaizen1
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2006
- Messages
- 6,314
Hi! This i my first time posting anything.
So I've been reading everybody's comments about SOG's "blatant ripoff" of various manufacturers' product lines; the Spyderco Endura/Delica being the one which seems to have generated the most outcry. (Vicious bunch, those Spyderco fans, aren't they? I understand; I'm a huge Spydie fan too!)
I'm a big fan of certain products from both manufacturers, and have used both manufacturers' products in the field during my military stint, and as a civilian. I'll probably stick with both makers' products when I enter law enforcement here in the immediate future. That having been said, I will readily acknowledge that there appears to be some heavy copying involved here; but read the statement below first.
"...In 2009, SOG partnered with MCC Capital Partners, a private equity firm specializing in the growth of micro and middle market branded consumer products companies. MCC will provide financial and management experience to the company, as well as access to capital, allowing Mr. Frazer to concentrate on continued new product design and development. This will give the company the foundation to efficiently and professionally service its growing list of customers, while preserving the SOG traditions of product quality, innovation, and strength of brand...."
This comes directly from SOG's website, under their company story-type heading (every company's got one). To my mind, I see no surprise in the fact that this inane and stupid change in SOG's marketing and product line comes directly on the heels of a private investor gaining a controlling interest in the company. I personally have felt that SOG has taken a serious wrong turn, product-wise, in the past few years. I like mid-level priced folders and fixed blades, and I really don't care how "pretty" they are, as long as they function (Glock, anyone??). I don't like SOG's new "billboarding" of their knives- putting their logo on every single part of the knife (see the Aegis, a knife I otherwise like). Stop putting your name all over your stuff; if it's a great knife, don't worry- we'll buy it! And SOG, stop the idiotic "dinosaur SOGzilla" marketing- you don't need it! Your company has a great reputation (for now); stand on that. Period.
All that having been said, my real worry with the SOGzilla is that they compromised the blade's strength, with that itty-bitty little cutout in the thumb hole. Making it lower strength just to copy a proven design? There was an outcry when Benchmade copied the round hole and Spyderco-esque blade shapes years ago, but it was at least done right. I might buy the SOGzilla as a cheap, all-purpose EDC/Emergency Tactical blade, bearing in mind six things:
1. That thumb hole gets closed up!
2. I can get it for about the same price as a Byrd, with comparable quality.
3. I like SOG's "bayonet" deep carry pocket clip.
4. I won't cry my eyes out if it's lost or broken.
5. I don't care about looks or country of origin (so long as machining and quality controls are present).
6. I like the blade tip geometry a little more than my Delica/Endura (not quite so Wharncliffey).
I think if SOG just gets back to basics, and fires its marketing department, they'll be just fine. Hiring R. Lee Ermey isn't the answer; building good products is. They make great multitools; still make some great fixed blades. A few folders of theirs are great too; the Twitch series are excellently constructed- fine machining, tight tolerances, thin laminate-esque in construction, great heat treat- good knives. I've had a Twitch XL for years, and while it's an ugly, mismatched looking knife, it performs beautifully, stays sharp, and is rock solid in construction.
Just my extended thoughts, here.
Oh, and as far as the great-priced EDC/tactical blades being produced in China goes, you may as well get used to it; it's simply becoming too expensive to manufacture a quality product for cheap right here. Even the much revered Sal & company at Spyderco are doing it....
...and if SOG had just put "We love Sal Glesser" above the SOGzilla online and in catalogs, we'd just all be complaining about Cold Steel again....
Great post.
Addicted2Knives
BANNED
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2010
- Messages
- 33
If they stopped using AUS-8 and switch to 154cm or S30V then they would probably have my buisness.
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2009
- Messages
- 283
are you suggesting that makes sog's behavior acceptable?
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2005
- Messages
- 3,652
+1:thumbup: And it was his first post as well!
Welcome to BladeForums, seanv1! Please stick around!
Kaizen1
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2006
- Messages
- 6,314
+1:thumbup: And it was his first post as well!
Didn't notice that. Welcome seanv1
- Status