Some observations and unsolicited advice

Joined
Jul 28, 2006
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There's been some stuff here that has really burdened my soul and I'm going to talk about it. If you don't want your feelings hurt I'd probably stop reading and go pet a bunny rabbit, drink some herbal tea or whatever it is frail souls do when "mean people" like me bruise your egos.

1. Whatever happened to "paying your dues" as a knifemaker? I remember when I first started back in 2002 or so it was somewhat expected of most makers to sell their knives fairly cheap to build a reputation. There are exceptions to this rule of course, some people come out of the chute doing amazing work. I sold knives for nearly 2 years before I dared to sell one for $150 or more. I see new makers that don't understand basic knifemaking terminology attempting to sell poorly made knives for the money that KNOWN makers get for similar style but much better pieces.

2. Whatever happened to pride in the craft? :( I see most people humbly accepting critiques but there are people that will defend to the death their lack of quality in their work. They're almost proud of the fact that they refuse to do quality work and pass it off as part of their style. Not saying it's here for this genre of blade but period pieces are an example of this. There are a lot of makers (can't think of any on here) that are proud of their poor work because it's "period" then you have makers like LRB, Cochea, Okz that do period pieces with some damn fine fit and finish.

3. IF YOU POST IN HERE WITH OTHER MAKERS YOU'RE GOING TO GET CRITIQUED WHETHER OR NOT YOU ASK FOR IT!!!!! If you want a cheering section hand some pompoms over to your dog and post your knife in the other gallery. I've always assumed if you posted in the Makers section it's open for critique. The whole tired phrase "you wouldn't say that to me in person" is very hollow. I know most of these guys would and probably would be more stern and critical because they CAN see your face. All I can say is if your feelings are hurt by the generally civil critiques you get here then you've got a long row to hoe. Another thing, the often repeated "you wouldn't say that to me in person" is a thinly veiled threat. It takes 2 to dance and I know more than a few makers and collectors that will have you wearing your asshole for a necklace in about 10 seconds in a face to face disagreement.

4. Lastly, my teacher told me early on that there are 2 negative things people will say about your work. They don't like your style and they don't like the quality. You can control half of it.

Not really sorry if I stepped on some toes. I feel better for having said this. I'm sorry I'm not more elegant with my words, I'm just an old soldier and a public educated Japanese Redneck.
 
Yeah! What he said!:thumbup:
And if your pants are half way down your ASS....PULL YOUR PANTS UP!!!:D
Mace
 
I agree..and wear your hat straight too, not sideways !

japanese redneck? you mean you're from oakinawa ?;):D
 
Yup... Naha City, father was in SF during Vietnam. Born at Camp Koui (can't remember the spelling and my mom can't seem to spell it in Engrish). I was raised in Alabama so I'm doubly qualified as a Redneck. :p
 
Excellent post

Donning my nomex

As a novice knifemaker, I know my flaws and I price accordingly. I don’t want to throw a maker into the discussion without permission but… I look at this maker and knife as a model http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612894

Of where my knives need to be Vs price. I’ve seen (IMO) lesser pieces with higher prices and just shake my head.

As a nobody, I think I’m doing pretty good if I can get my costs out of my sales as I build hopefully a good name
 
Yup... Naha City, father was in SF during Vietnam. Born at Camp Koui (can't remember the spelling and my mom can't seem to spell it in Engrish). I was raised in Alabama so I'm doubly qualified as a Redneck. :p

lol..I was actually half joking about the oakinawa thing;)

so..japanese redneck hillbilly?
 
Not many hills in Alabama, hillbilly usually refers to people of the Appalachians :p Although in the nearby town of Wetumpka (means "lots of damn trailer parks" in Creek) they claim to be "the end of the Appalachians" they thought they were but latest geological studies show that Blue Ridge is actually a large meteor strike.... very very very large meteor strike.

Phillip Patton is a great maker and I can't understand why he sells at those prices other than he like people to own Patton knives.
 
I cannot think of a better topic and more relevant. I've been watching makers come and go for the last few years and so many jump in with both feet without really understanding all facets of the art and science. I could go down, rough grind some 1084, heat it up and quench it in some goo enough to harden it and call it a knife. Would I ever consider posting it for $200 and saying "custom handmade"? No, not a chance. I pride myself and have asked for critiques and taken them all to heart. I researched the crap out of this site before even starting my first. Yes I asked some simplistic questions, but for the most part, I found all the information on my own. I tire of the "hey, how do I heat treat this lawnmower blade steel" and "where can I buy knife steel" or "does anyone own a Grizzly" posts. It really gets my hackles up when I see a newer maker post crap for sale at top dollar! I look at it and say "What the f*** is he thinking?". And you're absolutely correct, don't post if you don't want criticism, constructive or otherwise. I don't care if you had a table at some show and everybody liked your stuff. People are idiots and they will gravitate to anything. I've never sold at a show and frankly have no want to. I admire those who do, but abhor those that do and show crap. It brings the industry down a peg or two. I sold my first knives for around $50. My last sold for $200 (amazed me too). Most of my pieces go for $130 to $180, more dependent upon size than anything else. Too many newbies throw their stuff out there for a good chunk of change and taint the buyers attitudes. If I buy something for $100+, I should be guaranteed good quality finish and heat treat. Not a barbecue hack job with some mystery wood slapped on with epoxy.
 
I cannot think of a better topic and more relevant. . I tire of the "hey, how do I heat treat this lawnmower blade steel" and "where can I buy knife steel" or "does anyone own a Grizzly" posts.

....as I tire of these I'm-a-knife-maker-and-you're-not posts, designed to just stir the pot......seems like these kinds of posts are a once a week occurrence anymore.
Just my observation...
 
This is an excellent thread Will, and one I feel is long overdue.I read the threads where guys seem to get their feelings hurt when other makers point out things that should be obvious to even Stevie Wonder(which I feel they do only to help them grow as a maker), then they get bent out of shape over the said comments.I had a response typed in on such a thread the other day but did'nt hit the send button because I felt the guy would probably take it the wrong way, which he did on almost every reply that was intended to help him.This kind of response make people not want to help someone like that, and causes them to think twice about posting on other threads where the guy would most likely take the suggestions to heart and try to make changes for the better.
You also brought up a very good point about guys that want to make "period pieces".You can't simply make a rough, beat up,poorly finished knife and call it a period piece, and sacrifice, fit , finish and art in the process. I have had the pleasure of examining a couple of Winkler/Shook packages, and every aspect is absoluteley flawless, as it should be.
The long and short of it is , if you can't take this kind of critique and hopefully learn from it, then you are probably in the wrong forum.
 
When one of the blades you're talking about sells, and we've seen them here on the board too, doesnt it almost re-inforce to the maker that they've done good? That what they're making is in demand, and they should make more as fast as they can? You hate to discourage people, but if you don't critique and they sell a few blades, it seems like even their own level of quality (low as it is) dips further in an effort to quickly sell a whole bunch more. Not tryin to stir the pot, just my observations.

Larry
 
Larry, I'm sure you're right. We've all seen people that own $1000s worth of Pakistani/Chinese crap. These same people will buy a similar knife from a maker. For example, I have a friend named Kyle. Kyle will drop $350 on some ninja, knight of the round table, klingon piece but balks at $100 for an EDC. He'll wax poetic about how I need to use "surgical steel" and can I put some lion's teeth on a handle. I laugh and tell him he's an idiot and he laughs and says I'll just buy another Excalibur from someone that uses surgical steel. We're both happier that way.
 
Good thread, I'm always amazed at 'knives' that sell for the amount they do, and others that some say are too much. But who was it that once said "There's a sucker born every minute", Thats what I sometimes think when one of those "other" pieces sell... But, hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day...

PS.. What he said, "Pull your Damm pants up!!"
 
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I believe in making the best knife you have the current ability to make and if you want to sell it sell it for the ability you have at that time, not what you want it to be worth.

Also - Asking others to buy your work and having others ASK TO BUY your work puts you in a whole different catagory. Asking to have your work made is simple "hired help" so to speak and will merrit a little higher asking price VS "hey - I think this is worth $200 so thats what I want for it."

The most important part of this endevor for me is having the end user be happy with what they have to use. If their happy with the product, all else will fall into place.
 
....as I tire of these I'm-a-knife-maker-and-you're-not posts, designed to just stir the pot......seems like these kinds of posts are a once a week occurrence anymore.
Just my observation...
I don't agree they are just to stir the pot. I've seen a shift in the mentality of the makers since I've started on BF from a lot of serious makers to a lot more fly by night postings.
 
....as I tire of these I'm-a-knife-maker-and-you're-not posts, designed to just stir the pot...


The ratio of new posts from starting knifemakers in relation to the number of experienced knifemakers posting has changed significantly in just the last six months. I don't think we're gaining that many more new makers, I think the experienced makers are leaving in frustration.
You're free to attribute this to whatever you wish, rayban, but the simplest answer is likely the correct one, and that is there are too many new threads with queries that have been answered previously (ad nauseum), and many of the new makers apparently too lazy to even attempt to search for it.
This forum may be a group, and it may have it's cliques, but this is still a group comprised of individuals. The perceived persecutions you insist on pointing at feel a lot to me like ghost stories. I don't see what you're talking about, but if you wish to provide me with an example or two, I'm willing to hear your side. If you prefer, PM me or email me.
 
Well here is my question to this thread. I consider my self to be a fairly new maker, I have spent a lot of time researching " how to do " things in making knives and I do the bets I know how on every knife I do, but when do you know your not the guy who is selling his knives for too much. How do you know when you are not the guy that every that has that poor fit and finish that is not worth the price he is selling it for? For example as stated above when do you know you have made it to that " next level "?
P.S. I had a know knife maker take a look at a knife a made a good while back, take his time to call me yesterday and give me some really good pointers on how I could improve my work. I just wanted to say it is great to have people take their valuable time to help someone else out, that they don't even know, to improve this craft we enjoy doing.
 
I've seen some of the finest period pieces on this forum . The difference being the
people making period pieces that aren't made that way on purpose. Everyone has to start somewhere and good work should be paid for, however when at a show and there are many makers and collectors start to be involved it usually dosen't take to long to see where the price and quality are at.
Ken
 
I wasn't pointing the fingers at the period piece makers. It's just an example I deal with a lot since my inlaws do reenacting. I was using that as an example of makers doing ill-designed or executed work then making up reasoning for it.

Most of the makers that critique my work in person do it using the Socratic method, they'll ask a question and I'll have to defend my work. It worked the same in the Army for our unit skills testing (ARTEPS for those that remember those) conducted by higher headquarters, they'd ask why we did something a certain way and as leaders we'd better have a pretty dang good reason.

Edited to add:
J.. your work is great and priced reasonably for the knife the customer gets :D.
 
From one of the most famous knife makers ever, (Bob Loveless) once said.....

"Put it all out there and the public will sort it out."



TA



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