Some observations and unsolicited advice

I tried to sell a knife here that I thought was pretty good, got some compliments on it. It didn't sell. I thought tough crowd, or I need to kick it up another notch. So I am trying to learn more and practice as much as I can to produce a knife that is worthy. I have had my knives critiqued and it doesn't feel good, but it is necessary for me to improve. I have a long way to go before I try selling on here again. But I will someday. The knife I tried to sell was giving away in a contest here, and the guy who won it said that the knife was very good, and the only thing I needed to work on was the handle fit and finish. So I will focus on what I did wrong and try to correct it.
 
I don't like seeing poor quality knives in the Makers For Sale Section. I flinch at some the the offerings there nowadays.

I hope that most of you don't flinch at mine.

Maybe a knifemaker membership should be applied for and voted by a panel here?
 
Will, even As a new maker, I have to agree. I've only been making knives for about a year, and have yet to offer one for sale. I won't sell anything that I'm not satisfied with. I try to improve with every knife I make, and look to the established makers for tips and an honest critique. I will say that there are very few issues that someone could point out that i wouldn't already be aware of, but sometimes I just have to call a project "done" and move on. As mentioned though, those pieces won't be available for sale. I really don't understand how some people feel that EVERY knife they have made should be sold, particularly when starting out. I suppose it could have something to do with a misconception about profitability when they see a high quality knife go for big bucks... hard to say. I recently have had an offer for my first commissioned work which I'll be starting on in a few weeks. This was an offer from a friend however, I probably wouldn't have accepted the same job from Joe Public. He's in no hurry, and that gives me some breathing room to take my time and do the best I can. So that's my perspective as a "newbie" ... I would also like to say thanks to all the makers that have answered my stupid questions along the way.... there will be more to come!

-Mark
 
As to points 1 and 2, I believe that you should price your knives according to the market, so I can't discriminate too much if a new maker gets high-dollar for his/her knives, I can only hope that the market works out the discrepancy somehow. For point two I'd just like to say that there's always been the Shiva Ki's of knifemaking, if you venture outside of the "known" world, I think you'll see a lot of quality issues from makers with "popular" knives. If you've only ever seen one custom, there's not really much to keep you from thinking it's the nicest one out there.

I am with you on posts 3 and 4. I do think we should always expect some level of critique when presenting knives to other makers, although I don't expect them to give a full-on beating unless you ask them to give an honest critique. I believe that it's easier to get people to improve if you can get them to focus on improving one major mistake at a time, not to say that you can't point out others, but there should always be a focus. We should always be working to improve our quality.

As far as knowing when you're ready to move forward, I think that it just requires you talking with other makers and looking honestly at what is available on the market. Try looking for flaws in other people's knives or looking at the advice that they are being given and take that back to your own work. Once you get it out of your head that your knives are awesome (which they may be), then you can look more objectively at your work and maybe become your own worst critic.
 
Fiddleback said:
Maybe a knifemaker membership should be applied for and voted by a panel here?
Click to expand...

Absolutely not. This isn't a popularity contest (trust me, I'd lose...), but more importantly the Loveless quote in bigal2me's post answers it. I don't know how much this thread was supposed to contend with whether or not you're a knifemaker (really, you are if you think you are - not what others think you are), but more about how the climate of the forum is changing. Correct me if I'm wrong, Will...

Also, if someone wants to give you money for your knife and you feel it's the right price, it is.
 
It's more about the climate in this forum. I've been here under this and another name for years and it seems like there's been some sort of rapid climate shift in the forum over the last 6-8 months. I don't know if it's people reading some sort of "make money at home doing knifemaking" pamphlet or maybe all the stuff on the various cable shows is rekindling an interest in knife and sword making. :confused: It seems that whatever is causing the flood of instant gratification makers failed to inform them this is a craft and a skill requiring more than a little research, practice and patience. :(

I'm far from belittling or mocking newer makers. Perhaps I'm just frustrated but this has been troubling me as much as I allow something on an internet forum to trouble me.

Edited to clarify:

There are a lot of new makers that aren't "instant gratification" makers and I truly find them a joy to read and help. :thumbup:
 
"I STARTED TO READ THROUGH THE NEWBIE THREAD, BUT THERE IS JUST SO MUCH INFORMATION, AND I'M LAZY SO CAN SOMEONE JUST GIVE ME THE ANSWER?"
Man that just burns my A$$!:mad: Yeah, I can see your point. You obviously don't know anything, and God forbid you go ahead and read ALL of the information and actually LEARN something!:eek:

If you're lazy go away and quit wasting people's time. It WILL show in your work anyhow. Take up another hobby. Crosstitch or some other effing thing...:jerkit:
 
The thread the other day about the guy injured with a router who felt we should have warned him that the router was a dangerous tool and tought him to use it safely before he did something dumb really pissed me off.
 
Matthew Gregory said:
...but more about how the climate of the forum is changing. Correct me if I'm wrong, Will...
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That is indeed the heart of the matter.

I only get one time a year (other than the forums and customer feedback) to get true maker feedback. That's when I attend Ashokan. That is where I get my points for improvement. I agree that the obligatory "beating down" of new makers is uncalled for and I wouldn't think of condoning it in any way.

I don't see the I'm a maker and you're not mentality. I do see a bunch of new makers and fly by night posts that fail to just do the basic search to find the answer to their questions before asking, therefore filling this forum with repeated questions that, as Matt put it, have been answered ad nauseum. I see makers tired of seeing the same basic questions that can be answered by the stickies or a quick Google search.

Voting on Knifemaker status is definitely a no go. That is based around funding this site and keeping it going. Not how good the knives are.

I've posted crap, I know now it was crap, at the time, I didn't. You make what you make. It just makes me disgusted to see people get irate at critiques (no matter how badly worded). You don't have to respond to those, just don't acknowledge those who you don't agree with. Pride is a hard thing to overcome. It hurts when you put time and energy into a piece just to have someone say it's a piece of junk. Look beyond those one or two postings, drop the attitude and listen. You and your work will be far better off for it.
 
mdoyle said:
"I STARTED TO READ THROUGH THE NEWBIE THREAD, BUT THERE IS JUST SO MUCH INFORMATION, AND I'M LAZY SO CAN SOMEONE JUST GIVE ME THE ANSWER?"
Man that just burns my A$$!:mad: Yeah, I can see your point. You obviously don't know anything, and God forbid you go ahead and read ALL of the information and actually LEARN something!:eek:

If you're lazy go away and quit wasting people's time. It WILL show in your work anyhow. Take up another hobby. Crosstitch or some other effing thing...:jerkit:
Click to expand...

LOL

Here is another quote from another famous knife maker ( Tony Bose ).....

"If it was easy a bunch of girls would be doing it."


TA



.
 
Cross stitching isn't easy..... I did one on a bet, the prize was well worth the hassling I took from the guys :D
 
Great thread Will.This is the exact reason I dont sell any knives on BF.Not to say that my cutlery sucks,but there is still room for improvement.I give most of my knives away or sell for materials its my way of an unpaid apprenticeship.You "Real knifemakers" have rightfully set the bar high. Just because it took 6 weeks and 10 stitches doesnt make it a good knife,just like $15,000 and 15 miles doesnt make you a biker.
Nick Wheeler had a good post last week,are you an accomplished or experienced knifemaker.I dare say that I'm almost experienced :o
 
J.Marsillo said:
Nick Wheeler had a good post last week,are you an accomplished or experienced knifemaker.I dare say that I'm almost experienced :o
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I just feel I am lucky enough to have gained some experience to help others I come in contact with. I am fortunate enough to have guys use my work. I am personally motovated enough to have them be a tough hard use knife. Those 3 things at the fore front and the rest will fall into place.

I think I am getting off topic. Sorry if I am fellas.
 
I guess I just dont get it. Could some one fill me in? If someone could send me a p.m. or email that would be great. What specificly are we talking about here?
 
I'm not particularly fond of threads like these myself. I don't tend to see it like the OP does really.

Let the customers you deal with decide if the knife is worthy or not. I'd suggest you not lose sleep too much over what you think you see in pictures on these forums. Pictures don't tell what you can see, feel and experience in the hand. Pictures come in different and varying lighting and quality just like everything else. Even a beautiful model can look great one day and in bad light not so great the next. A knife may look primitive and be a very functional exceptionally smooth reliable performer or it may look like a beautiful piece of work and something truly exceptional but still have a lock that defeats with very little spine pressure. You can't tell all you need to know from a picture.

Personally I don't sit around worrying about what my neighbors do or don't do. I leave that to them. I wish them well and hope they succeed in the continuing practice of making knives and I applaud their efforts when they are recognized for their hard work. As with any 'practice' whether it be the practice of dentistry or the practice of knife making we each learn and grow, knowing that as with anything each piece is unique standing on it's own. Some turn out better than others and we hope that we move in the right direction to be mostly considered a maker of fine work that is truly appreciated by those using our handiwork but for the times we don't reach as close to the ideal or as close to where we need to be or want to be I think for the most part that from what I've seen most makers are as critical of their own flaws, mistakes and short fallings as anyone else could ever be.

Keep in mind that your opinion of what makes a good knife or a bad one may not be the same as your neighbors. If high art and extremely good aesthetics that please the eye are your cup of tea and another is fully into function and aesthetics be darned who are we to tell him how to present his art? I think we need to live and let live here. If you want my take on things for whatever its worth. "If a maker is good or bad the customers will certainly tell you sooner and more accurately than your fellow knife makers will, and particularly the ones that hang together in certain circles, that tend to take up for each and their work often defending even obvious faults in both character, function and form."

STR
 
Fiddleback said:
I don't like seeing poor quality knives in the Makers For Sale Section. I flinch at some the the offerings there nowadays.

I hope that most of you don't flinch at mine.

Maybe a knifemaker membership should be applied for and voted by a panel here?
Click to expand...

Andy,
I understand where you are coming from on voting for knifemaker status and several here have already voiced their opnion on that topic.
I think it will get more attention, here's my two cents. Like the quote from Bob, I let my customers decide about the knifemaker issue. Having said that I have made well over 1000 knives and if on a forum I lose a popularity contest to be called a knifemaker, I would not continue to frequent that forum. I feel similarly about most organizations.
Del
 
Good post post Will. As a new ??, I wont call myself a knifemaker yet, I have to say a couple of things, one is that without the help of all the makers on this forum, who have put time, blood, and sweat into their craft, and the help of my teacher here locally I would be lost. So big debt of thanks to you all. Without criticism I would never improve, so I welcome it because I want to get better.
Second, I have made 9 knives, and sold two, gave away or kept the rest. I almost felt guilty with selling the first because I could see tons of flaws in it, but a friend offered $75 as soon as he saw it so he was happy and so was I.
Keep in mind that was a damascus blade that, with the help of my teacher, I forged myself.

My wife has asked me several times why I dont put some of my knives on here for sale. Here is why. Until I get a fit and finish that I am satisfied with I wont put a knife on here and ask someone for their hard earned money for it when there are much better knives available.

Take the post here that contained a link to one of Phillip Pattons knives, what a steal! That knife for $125! He is a great maker offering a great product, and he is only one of many.
I get frustrated sometimes when I put a post up and dont get much response but I realize that the accomplished makers on here may be getting numb looking at the posts from guys who get an angle grinder and a leaf spring and just go at it then call it a style and put it up for $150!

I realize that this is a long journey and not an overnight gratification. Since getting into making knives I have spent countless hours reading, BF, books, magazine articles etc., watched videos and Im lucky enough to have someone take me into his shop and let me spend hours watching and learning.

Again, thanks to Will, who just helped me with a post a few days ago, and all the others on here who offer advice and criticism.

Just my two cents.
 
Will, great post. The standards in the industry have become shocking and new people coming in have the option of buying a few books or videos and then hanging up a Knifemaker sign. It seems like those who forge are attracted to the old ways and tend to be old school when it comes to paying their dues by hammering out a good amount of steel before they claim any fame. Seems just the opposite with some of the Grinders, some tend to fake it till they make it, one could say.

What bothers me as much if not more is the sales hype, lies, and rock star BS involved in people branding knives. The internet has had a dramatic effect on the knife community. What will be interesting to watch is who is still around in five years with the current economic crises. I greatly suspect we will see a exodus of knife makers and big companies in the coming months and years. It seems some are barely holding on now, with the Chinese flooding the markets with better fakes, times is gonna get tough.



What is encouraging is to see people who have a genuine interest in knife making who do not see it as a economic exercise getting involved. Recently I came into contact with a part time maker who only makes knives for his own collection, I found that very interesting.
 
If anything, I have at times felt the opposite way about responses to things I have posted (here and elsewhere.) I have put up pics over the last few months of completed knives, and have specifically asked for feedback, constructive criticism, things that need improvement, etc., and the majority of the replies tended to be more of the 'great job' or 'attaboy' nature. Those feel good for sure when you've put your heart and soul into something and I appreciate folks being nice and perhaps not wanting to hurt my feelings, but at the same time, I can't improve if I can't see everything that's wrong. I find an experienced and fresh eye invaluable after staring at, and working with, something for so long.
 
I think the best makers are intrinsically motivated. They want to improve their craft because they want to improve. They want to make the best knife possible. They're not concerned about selling it or making money off of it. They just want to make a perfect product. When I see guys like Nick, Karl, Bruce, Philip, TA, and MANY others out there, I see that they want a perfect product. What they are able to sell their knives for comes from respect and from the quality of product they put out.

I have never sold a knife on bladeforums, and it will likely be some time before I do. The only knives I have ever sold are to people who have personally seen my work (with the exception of one out-of-state order), and they liked it well enough to want to pay money for something similar. I do my very best to make sure the customer is happy with what they get. If they're not happy, I want to buy that knife back. I want to fix it; I want to make them something better. I DON'T want something out there that the owner isn't COMPLETELY satisfied with. I feel that if someone paid me money to have something that I made, I owe it to that person to make sure they are satisfied. And I can't see my attitude changing in this regard. I don't ever want to get to the point that I call it "eh....good enough."

I enjoy seeing the new makers here. I enjoy their enthusiasm. I'm still a newbie myself, just with a few more miles on my skills. I hope we always have new makers coming on here asking basic questions and learning the craft. I also hope that those makers can learn attitudes of perfection in the same way that I have from some of the excellent makers on this forum.

--nathan
 
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