Some observations and unsolicited advice

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Actually I don't think it's just the forum. I think it comes from the dumbing down of America over the last couple decades. I work with a lot of people without a basic understanding of science, you can see some of those people on Youtube, setting fire to themselves or taking a header of a bike,or skateboard. There are things you just cain't buy in a hardware store anymore cause people cain't follow directions, I'm suprised we don't have a power tool licensing program in the US.

Remember Popular Mechanics the magazine. They used to have articles ever issue on how to build something, usually from plumbing fixtures , model A parts, or plywood. Ever spring they had boat plans. I read PM for years, I still get a hankering to look at boat plans in the spring.

Today PM is pretty much what's the next hottest piece of technology out the there. Why! Probaly cause of liability issues

We live in an age of techno-instant-gratification. Sorry we cain't brain chip you into a knifemaker, you have to do the work. Here on the forum You hafta read,read,read.

I for one just don't even open a post if it is covered in the newbie section.

Yet at the same time help given to another person is good for me, probably better for me than it is for the person I gave advice too.
What they do with that advice/knowledge is up to them.

We used to start ever wannabe off with the Hossom (Cheapskate way to make a knife post) I figure if you can't make a knife under those instructions you are not going to make a knife.

I remember dealing with a new guy, gave him the Hossum link, but he didn't have time to make a knife like that (to much work) and didn't want to spend money for equipment he might not need if he didn't like making knives, no he didn't want to build a kit. Sorry I cain't help you then.

Years ago,I always wanted to be famous, rich and good looking, but I never wanted to put out any effort on the famous and rich part. So i never got famous or rich.:rolleyes:

I love seeing a new guy pick it up and "get it" and make some good stuff.
I remember a lot of guys that started here and other forums, some JS and MS in the ABS now. They did the work!:thumbup:

To me that makes it worth skipping over some posts by mechanicaly handicapped people.

Remeber this is a discussion forum, if ever body agreed with ever body it would just be a pat-me-on-the-back forum.

I'm off my soap box now.
 
P J 234 said:
If anything, I have at times felt the opposite way about responses to things I have posted (here and elsewhere.) I have put up pics over the last few months of completed knives, and have specifically asked for feedback, constructive criticism, things that need improvement, etc., and the majority of the replies tended to be more of the 'great job' or 'attaboy' nature. Those feel good for sure when you've put your heart and soul into something and I appreciate folks being nice and perhaps not wanting to hurt my feelings, but at the same time, I can't improve if I can't see everything that's wrong. I find an experienced and fresh eye invaluable after staring at, and working with, something for so long.
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Exactly and if someone did say something bad about your work no matter what it was and you stopped doing it Paul, or took it to mean you were no good or let it depress you then maybe your heart wasn't really in it to begin with. Most of us are self assured enough to rise above such things anyway and continue to do what we love. The old saying you can never please everyone comes to mind here.

Further thoughts on this? My turn for the pedestal now. It takes a bit of nerve in my opinion for someone to be critical in a negative way of a maker or his work because of one or even a couple knives they happen to see for sale now and then from his or her shop. Its ok to mention some things but really to crack down on someone is something I'd be suspicious of personally. For one you don't know at all the details about that knife other than superficially from the visual or the specs listed by the maker. If its for sale by a customer you sure don't know when it was bought or if its modified, abused or what, or even if another maker worked on it for that owner of the knife unbeknownst to the original maker. If the maker is selling it think about it. You are not there in his shop. You don't know him/her. You don't watch them work. You don't see all their work or even a small fraction of it. Its not any different to me than another dentist saying to a potential patient, oh I've seen some of so and so's work and believe me its not that good. What a load of crap! You maybe saw a patient for an emergency and put a filling in because he was out of town or did something else for a patient and got a glimpse of some of his past work or maybe on another occasion he may see another example of your work when you are on vacation and deems you a bad dentist now from seeing two examples of your work. Keep in mind he doesn't know when the work was done. He doesn't know the circumstances surrounnding it and really for all he doesn't really know if it was done when you were still in dental school learning how to do dentistry but yet they pass judgement on you and say that to one of your customers not even realizing that eventually the same thing is going to happen to them when what goes around comes around.

Its also another issue entirely if a maker sees someone elses work or sales going on and notices only the negative things, quick to point out all the flaws or how undeserving that maker is of that praise or that price. This may be more a sign of the guy being so critical showing his own insecurities leading to jealousy than it is anything about the other maker's work he is being so harsh on or threatened by. To me this is very much like a preacher that condemns anything sexually explicit because he himself is not at peace with his own sexuality. Perhaps at times it would be more prudent for that critical person to look in the mirror and come to grips with his own insecure feelings about his own work or sales and realize that the reason he sees these negative things first and foremost and so easily in others and their work is because he is seeing his own short comings reflected in others.

Lastly. I used to play in a band. If we sang one bad song it didn't mean we couldn't kick ass on the next one! We were pretty good most of the time and liked what we did. When we got somewhat well known some guys came around from time to time trying to sign us on to be our manager and telling us how one day we could 'make it' with their help and asking how we'd like that? To us it was so stupid! I mean who were these guys? The whole idea that they could tell us when we would make it and when we wouldn't or if we were good or if we were bad was beyond our understanding. To us we already made it and you know what? The idea of being good or bad never occurred to us much because if the audience danced, if the audience clapped we were there. We made it everytime we got on a stage and left that evening with another pretty lady and here is this guy telling us this load of crap!

What he was doing was trying to say that he'd tell us when we were there like it was his business, his job, or like we really needed him to tell us anything of the sort. From our point of view we were going to play music whether anyone came to dance or not, just like we did in our garage with a few friends as the only audience before doing gigs. We were going to play whether anyone paid us or not and we didn't need him to tell us when we made it or sell us or for some magazine to tell us when we were there. We were there the moment we started doing something we loved doing.

Well, its like that with knives too. I'm going to play with, work on and make knives whether any of you guys like it or not, buy it or not or ask me to do one for you or not. From my point of view I don't need to be told when I'm there by some group of fellow makers or a formal oraganized group of evaluators. I was there the moment I decided to become someone that did this off and on and I'll be there until I decide to stop. It was never up to anyone else. If I wanted to join some organized group like the Guild I'd do it. Currently I see no benefit from that and I really see no reason to try to do anything different than what I currently do because it works, people like it and for the most part I have very few unhappy customers and have a lot of fun.Thats the best you can do guys. I recommend you follow suit and not wait for someone else to tell you when you are there. If you rely on others to tell you when you get there it won't happen.

Lastly, I met Sting once. You know, the singer from the Police. He told me that most of the very guys soliciting him to sign him from record companies at that time were the very ones that told him to his face he had no talent, or not to quit his day job. They just didn't recognize him or remember seeing him years later but believe me he remembers them well. It was never up to them is what I'm trying to say. Don't wait for someone else. Just do it and do it stubbornly indifferent to all opinions other than what you want to accept.

STR
 
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Alot has to do with initiative.
Many good makers have busted their butts to make good FAQ's, tutorials etc.

on how to make knives. I just Googled "how to make a knife" and got tutorials

on the first 10 pages from very good knifemakers. Can't afford a book or DVD

on knifemaking? - then chances are you're not going to be able to afford the

propane etc, anyway-but what about going to the library? I don't think

anyone has a problem with questions like, "I'm stuck" or "I did this and ___

happened, how do I fix it ". Atleast to took it upon yourself to get started.

Insted of, "I gots me a piece if metal from Kmart, now what?"
 
I will just add one more thought, and that is that there are different ways of saying the same thing. For example:

-That's ugly, I hate it
or
-That's not really my taste or style, but it looks well made and I appreciate the creativity


-It looks like you drug it behind your car as your final finishing step
or
-I like the overall design and choice of materials, but if you spent more time getting out the scratches before glueing on the handle slabs, it would result in a much finer end product.

I highly value constructive criticism, but I much prefer it worded in more of an encouraging or matter of fact way, than a harsh, negative, personal way.
 
I will say that I regularly seek out input from a few people who have been VERY instrumental in my growth and development. and they do NOT pull punches, which is WHY i started asking these particular individuals
 
Getting praise from every one that posts is like finding hens teeth. It's just Not gonna happen.
Now if I post a knife and someone doesn't care for it they have a choice of either posting good or bad, or not posting at all and keeping the information that could have given me a clue to what I was screwing up to them selves.

Personally I'd rather know what is going on with what others think of my work. Hell I like what I do with my knives but does the guy down the street, maybe not. And am I making knives for myself or for others? I still have most of the first knives I made mostly because they lacked the quality that I try for.
Another thing to think of is people commenting on knives of different styles. Be it a traditional type or something allot different, out of the ordinary if you will. Just because you don't care for the design is no reason to down play the craftsmanship or not give advice on how to better it or even point out what or where they went wrong. Makers should take the good with the bad and shouldn't be afraid to tell someone when they messed up. God knows I've learned allot this way.
 
Will Leavitt said:
I don't know if it's people reading some sort of "make money at home doing knifemaking" pamphlet or maybe all the stuff on the various cable shows is rekindling an interest in knife and sword making. :confused:
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Actually I watched an episode of Weaponmasters where a guy made a katana (I think) using new age methods compared to he Japanese method. The show was 60 minutes. They had the time to go to Japan, watch the making of super special japanese steel, watch swordmakers make em, go back to the US, make a sword (for the first time I might add) with the help of a proficient swordmaker, and test both japanese and american made models to some form of failure. Cause of TV time folks did not see how long it really took for the guy to make the sword, let alone polish it up and make it pretty. I think that right there is what gets folks interested and start poking around on the internet and end up here.
 
Much of what Sweany said reflects my feeling on this subject. In recent years I've had to change my attitude when someone asks me about how to make Mosaic Damascus. At one time the only ones who would ask, where those who had a little Bladesmithing under their belts. Within the past 5-6 years, I've gotten that question more and more from individuals who have no clue as to how simple damascus is made, and about two secentences into the explaination their eyes glaze over and they get that "dog at the TV screen" look. It might seem harsh, but now a days, I ask them if they have tried to make Mosaic, and if the answer is "No", then I don't even try to go any further, and tell them to call me when they've made a couple of attempts. A number of years ago, when I first became interested in making mosaic, I wrecked what seems like a 1/2 ton of steel. All I ever managed to achieve was a little chunk here and there that was full of cold shuts, cracks, or squashed beyond recognition. I took a small chunk of a failure to the Blade Show with me one year, and sought out Steve Schwarzer. When I first asked him about Mosaic, he kind of rolled his eyes like Oh great, another one. When I pulled that quarter sized piece of what was suppose to be Mosaic, out of my pocket, his eyes lit up, and we talked for over an hour about what I was doing wrong and right. Afterward Steve told me that since I had been attempting to make Mosaic, and had proven it by bringing him a failed piece, he knew I was serious, and was willing to tell me everything I needed to know.
The moral of the story is that if you have the drive and desire, you will try to do it on your own, and if things go wrong, seek advice and guideance.....not the other way around.
We all have/had to start somewhere......no amount of "book knowledge" will make up for a lack of hands on/acquired skills. How do you acquire those hands on skills? By doing. If you don't have enough common sense to realize that a router (or any other power tool) could seriously injury you, then you probably should not be allowed around them.

Ask intelligent questions, garnered from failed attempts, and you will receive a much better responses than if you ask something so basic that it requires pages of text to explain. Above all, know that trying, then asking, will get you much further than always asking and never trying.
 
As a newbie, I've read through this thread with interest and will take it to heart.

I do have an observation of my own... knife buyers today have a VAST selection from which to choose, right off the shelf. There's a lot of crap of course, but there are also some very nice using knives out there, both imported and domestic, for around $100.

It seems to me that I have to get my quality consistently higher than that before I have the balls to offer my pieces for sale. That includes using better materials, much finer fit and finish, and testing my stuff hard so that I can be confident in the customer's satisfaction.

When I reach that point, you can betcher behind I'll ask a good price for my work. This isn't just a hobby to me, and I eventually expect to be paid for my labor and product. But I don't expect to be paid at all until I can show my work is demonstrably better than the average factory offering. I think that's the bare minimum standard for selling a hand-made knife. If not, we'd all just use Buck knives and never worry about it.

Sorry for the long post, but that's how I feel.
 
As a aspiring maker who's been reading (not making threads) I will add this:

The world has progressed solely due to individuals who posessed the humility and grace to start someone else off at the very place where they had to scrape and scrabble to get to. One generations ceiling is the next generations floor. Greater things can (and could have) be/been done if people would swallow their pride and give up their hard earned knowledge and lessons as a free gift to the coming generation.

Having said that, I expect NOBODY to take the time to answer "question spam" from people who have not gone as far as they can on their own. I've not asked a single question of an experienced (or inexperienced) knifemaker and I have learned huge amounts of information by way of my own research. I believe that kind of initiative should be taken by anyone requesting the advice and counsel of a master.

In short, once you've 'made it' find a way to give back to the community in the same way somebody doubtlessly gave to you.


Thank you all for your continual patience and grace.

Bryan
 
What ED said:

I started life as a weldors helper, nobody showed you anything unless you put forth an effort.
One old weldor told me he didn't even bother learning a new guys name until he'd been there 30 days.
 
:(...im taking my hammer and goin home....ha, and i aint comming back:grumpy:

ya big meannie!!:p



by the way, im a fairly...no not fairly , a completely new maker in comparison to others hear, and im sure i overcharge for everything i make, owell. anyway i think i have paid plenty of dues when it comes to learning, the guy that tought me, didnt sugar coat anything, he damn near threw every knife i brought to him in the woods behind the shop for the first few weeks and said they were crap.

he'd scream, hollar, and poke me in the chest, telling me how i'd never be a knifemaker if i didnt start using my head...but in not so family friendly words. i'd do something and think it was so perfect, and every single time he'd pick it apart, and critique every detail......i think partly he did it cause he was a old grumpy bastard, partly because he wanted to pump up his own ego, and partly because he wanted me 2 realize that nobody is perfect, but the way he came across he forced me to strive for perfection, and try to eliminate any flaw that he could potentially find and ream my ass for. but all in all i owe him tremendously, and when we'd leave the shop, it was like we were buddy's again, but in the shop if i thought i was gonna tell him that i was right, or give a lame excuse for a dumb mistake, he'd just say, if i didnt like what he had to say, then just dont come back no more.....and he meant it.

the only person that thinks everything i make is perfect is my gandmother, god bless her. but hell that dont count she thinks i shit gold!!:D

not sure this all pertains to the thread, but just my input on the few posts i read....if it dont then owell i got to waste some space in wills thread...good, cause he's a weirdo:p
 
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There are a lotta them out there like that.
Sometimes I tell Andy to go home and he just won't leave(BOG)
Andy helps me put on a hammerin at my place every summer and can tell ya how many of those guys come back during the rest of the yr to learn, work or whatever.
Just don't hear from them, till the free food is out, of course :-)
That's just human nature, I guess.Plus, the "You owe me" atitude. Ya know, "if I want it, you have to give it to me" crap.
 
The multitude of threads like this one gives me the fealing that there is an unwriten definition of what a knifemaker is suposeed to be before he can ask questions worthy of answering. I dont ask many questions because I am afraid to.
I think that kinda sucks.
I am not going to stop making knives. I just dont want to share my knife making with guys who dont want to hear and or talk about it. I have no idea what you folks are O.K. with talking about. I certainly dont want to invest time in a forum where the other members feel they are above talking to me or helping me out because my spelling is not up to par or my questions are too naive.

I have met a few of you guys in person and all of you have been allright in my book.
Still sometimes I think some of you guys get wound up to tight or something.....
I dont know.

I think I am going to try and start a useful thread. :)
 
Oh yeah, i read through some more of the posts, and agree that we all cant expect to be praised when we make crap, or something that someone dosent care for. i think unfavorable opinions and critique should not be taken lightly, and should really be considered as to whether the person who made the comment is actually right, even if we dont wanna admit it. lets face it, those people are the ones were trying to please with our work....well not me i dont wanna please anybody but myself:p, but ya get what i mean.

here's a link to a post that i made where someone didnt care for what i made, and out right told me so, but i think the out come of the discussion was very positive.

later
 
steelshaper said:
The multitude of threads like this one gives me the fealing that there is an unwriten definition of what a knifemaker is suposeed to be before he can ask questions worthy of answering. I dont ask many questions because I am afraid to.
I think that kinda sucks.
I am not going to stop making knives. I just dont want to share my knife making with guys who dont want to hear and or talk about it. I have no idea what you folks are O.K. with talking about. I certainly dont want to invest time in a forum where the other members feel they are above talking to me or helping me out because my spelling is not up to par or my questions are too naive.

I have met a few of you guys in person and all of you have been allright in my book.
Still sometimes I think some of you guys get wound up to tight or something.....
I dont know.

I think I am going to try and start a useful thread. :)
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just my interpretation of the thread as far as your statement goes, is not that makers dont wanna have to take the time to talk to ya, or answer questions, and deffinitley they dont want you to be affraid to speak up.

I think it's more that they dont want ya getting all huffy and pouting just cause ya dont like what they have to say, or because maybe someone makes a real crap knife but because they dont fall all over it they your feelings are hurt....not directing this to you specifically, just a general opinion.

maybe im wrong though???

oh yeah i remember seeing a post by a fairly popular member, reguarding a new idea for a EDC, and he was getting alot of positive feed back on it, but for my own reasons i didnt really care for it, so i said so, and though he's a more recognized maker than i, he still took the time to reply , and appreciated my honesty.
 
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