Something important to me and to us all

Carl sagan was an interesting guy, that's for certain. In his younger days, he was a UFO fan, after he started receiving govt checks, he became a vocal skeptic and debunker.

None of his claims can drown out the voices telling us what they saw.

Carl Jung (the psychiatrist) did his own studies and determined that, in his opinion, "UFO's are space ships from another world, and not hallucinations."

Hermann Oberth, one of the fathers of the space program, said " UFO's are conceived and directed by intelligent beings of a very high order.."


These people were not fools. 60 years does not turn rocket scientists and physicists into idiots nor hallucinating madmen. They knew the difference between rockets, balloons and "glowing metal discs" that killed car engines when they flew overhead.

(the UFO's dont kill diesel engines, only gasoline engines are affected. The high electrical field does something to the ignition coils, which diesel engines dont have.)

5-5-1953 Chemist W. Webb Yuma, Arizona Silvery disc. turned sharply, dark bands around object visible when viewed through polaroid glasses.
 
kronckew said:
i volunteer to jump up on their vehicle & rip off their windsheild wiper blades & poop on their roof. :D
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Kronckew, my wife is notorious for renting what I call "chick flicks". Because of this, I tend to not watch too many of her choices.
She recently rented a real doozy, not a chick flick, but more of a liitle kids film,................. "Chicken Little".

She wanted me and our practically grown up kids to watch it with her,...............um, uh,........... we accepted :)

Anyhow, after watching this kid's film, there is one thing I learned from it, and that is not to piss off Aliens!

You doing what you said you would volunteer to do, would most likely do just that, piss them off! What are you trying to do, get us all killed?!.........LOL! ;)
 
JimmyJimenez said:
...there is one thing I learned from it, and that is not to piss off Aliens!

You doing what you said you would volunteer to do, would most likely do just that, piss them off! What are you trying to do, get us all killed?!.........LOL! ;)
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my ex-wives were all aliens (the inhuman kind, not the illegal kind), pissing them off seems to be a specialty of mine. ah, well, one of these days i'll get it right: if at first you don't succeed....
 
There was a time when expert testimony and logical inference was enough to support speculation. But we have been technological for a while now, and while the ancient Romans didn't have video cameras, we do.

I am rapidly coming to the point where I don't need to think about them anymore. I want much better evidence, not talk, evidence.

I was involved in two UFO incidents while I was in the US Air Force. Once with radar available for backup information.

Nothing.

How many stories like that fill up UFOlogy texts?

Science requires data on which to speculate. We haven't got any.
 
I think another poster put it well with the "odds" argument.

In this case, the question can be made like this.............

What are the odds that this little speck of dust in the Universe, what we call "Earth", is the only speck in this entire universe that somehow developed what we consider to be intelligent life?

I think with the outrageous odds being in favor of other life forms having developed, it then leaves the door wide open to a "possibility" of there being life somewhere so advanced that it makes our intelligence seem miniscule. This would also open the "possibility" of there being a life form that can visit our planet.

To this day, humans are still discovering animals and plant life that had never before been scientifically documented (and that's only on this small speck called Earth). Did they not exsist because the scientific world knew nothing about them?

So what mysteries does the entire Universe have in store for us? I find it mind boggling to even try to imagine.

Of course, this is only one man's opinion, we are all allowed to believe in whatever we want :)
 
I recall the one time I saw what may have been a UFO. I was out in cottage country, sitting on a dock with two others at the time. It was late evening, but not sunset.

A large cloud/swarm of small black objects passed overhead, and headed out across the lake. It was flying at about twice treetop height, I guess. Near the opposite shore, the swarm took a sharp, almost instantaneous turn and proceeded to zip away out of sight. The speed and turn of the swarm make it absolutely impossible for it to have been a flock of birds or bats. This thing was fast. I mean like 2-300km/h fast. And it was completely silent, too.

After it went by, we three looked at each other, and after the 'what the heck was that?'s died down, we figured it counted as a UFO.

Take what you want from that, but I don't have an explanation for what I saw. Doesn't mean it was aliens, but I don't know that it wasn't, either.
 
We are all allowed to believe in whatever we want but belief in itself is unconvincing.

Probabilities derived from logic, not data, are unconvincing. As far as life elsewhere is concerned, we have only one actual data point, that's ourselves. Even logic is helpless is the face of insufficient evidence.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
We are all allowed to believe in whatever we want but belief in itself is unconvincing.

Probabilities derived from logic, not data, are unconvincing. As far as life elsewhere is concerned, we have only one actual data point, that's ourselves. Even logic is helpless is the face of insufficient evidence.
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Yes Sir, but a lack of "hard" evidence does not take away a "possibility".

I guess my way of looking at this subject is like this............

With the Universe being such an enormous and mind boggling space, does my brain allow for the "possibility" that other intelligent life may be out there, maybe even capable of visiting our planet? I answer that as a yes.

Does that mean that aliens, alien spacecrafts, or any other such thing is real?.............. No, but I surely have a very open mind about it, and would not be surprized at all if it someday is proven with "hard" evidence.

That's the whole "possibility" aspect of it all :)

There are things that I feel are "impossible", the foreign space alien idea is not one of them :)
 
Look at the harmonics. Eventually there will be another place where the conditions are right. How frequent that happens is the question, not whether or not.
 
"Possibilities" are daydreams. "Probabilities" are calculated results.

You can believe the moon is made of green cheese. Science needs evidence. Reports are not evidence. "Maybe" is not evidence.

Reports and maybes point science in the direction of possible data. After investigation and calculated probabilities, we can begin to speculate on the meaning of that data.

UFOs have been explained as aliens from other worlds, aliens from alternate realities on our own world, time travellers, or psychological states common to humans generally. None of these ideas have any hard evidence supporting them. They are science fiction at best, fantasy at worst, but they are not scientific.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
"Possibilities" are daydreams. "Probabilities" are calculated results.
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There have been many so called daydreams and daydreamers to go with them.

It was a daydreamer that believed in the possibility that one could record sounds.

A daydreamer that believed in harnessing electricity for human use.

A daydreamer that thought there was a possibility that man could fly.

A daydreamer that thought man could land on the moon...

Or that man could send equipment to Mars and beyond.

A modern day computer would be a mind boggling thing if one could go back just a few hundred years ago to show our ancient brethren.


History has shown us that some things that may have seemed impossible or untrue at one point in time, have later proven the opposite. This is the "possibility" factor.

There was a time that man did not know that microbial organisms exsisted on Earth, but they did, and man just did not know it. For people that may have thought it was possible in ancient times, they would probably be ridiculed and such as "daydreamers". And though it may not have been proven in their life times, it later turned out to be true.

Call me a daydreamer if you like, but I will keep considering it a rational possibility that life may be found elsewhere in this Universe, maybe life that far surpasses our own capacities.

I understand that you consider us so advanced, but so too did people feel that way in the past. We simply keep gaining advancements, making the previous advancements seem very obsolete. Maybe our high advancement compares so little to other possible higher life forms, that we have yet to develope enough technology to truly be able to solve whether or not other alien life is out there (or even visiting us).

I think man oftentimes has a hard time thinking outside the box. The "daydreamers", they are the ones that push the envelope.
One must always remember, Earth is truly nothing more then a speck in this Universe.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
"Possibilities" are daydreams. "Probabilities" are calculated results.

You can believe the moon is made of green cheese. Science needs evidence. Reports are not evidence. "Maybe" is not evidence.

Reports and maybes point science in the direction of possible data. After investigation and calculated probabilities, we can begin to speculate on the meaning of that data.

UFOs have been explained as aliens from other worlds, aliens from alternate realities on our own world, time travellers, or psychological states common to humans generally. None of these ideas have any hard evidence supporting them. They are science fiction at best, fantasy at worst, but they are not scientific.
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That is convenient. There is no way to collect this data you require. I was not talking about science I was talking about mathematics. You are pushing the scientific method. Just because the scientific method can't be used to proove something doesn't make it any less of a fact. Also, just because something is a theory doesn't mean it isn't a fact. Don't hide behind the scientific method. Its OK for you to doubt without any good reason at all.
 
Compared to Quantam theory the prospect of UFO's seems rather mundane ( Google " spooky action at a distance " ) and certainly there is enough visual evidence now that, to me , it is a given that these things exist. My problem is in trying to figure out what or who they may be and the maddening lack of physical evidence ( that we can access, " in government hands " doesn't help me at all ) it ended up making me less than enthusiastic though I still enjoy hearing about new or interesting sightings.

Danny, what do you think of the Cash-Landrum sighting? I think Betty Cash and her friends where subjected to radiation during a test of a Government Black Project and should have been taken care of as far their medical care goes. It's obvious she was a Patriotic and God fearing woman, she and Vickie Hill would have kept their mouth shut if the Army had just told them it was " top secret " and helped them with the radiation burns.
 
Esav Benyamin,

I can see you are strictly a hard evidence sort of a guy, so I can only recommend that you do one thing....................... watch the "Chicken Little" movie, there will be all the evidence you need in there :)


LOL! ;)
 
When I was 9 or ten, my brother and I were at church camp outside of Searcy,AR. The whole camp wittnessed a silver object being chased by two Air Force jets. overhead. The object eventualy just shot almost straight up into the air and disappeared in a split second. Made for some good stories around the fire that night. Don't know what it was, but it was real.
Terry
 
There's no question that reliable witnesses from all walks of life are seeing something that cannot be explained (currently).

Two questions bother me:

1. Why isn't there (yet) any hard evidence? SOMETHING physical shows up on radar screens, leaves tracks, radiation, etc. I am expecting a crashed one, either now or some time in antiquity. Boot, helmet, alien dump- evidence of some kind. Most these instances have never been satisfactorily explained at all. Because I do believe people are seeing something real.

2. Am NOT a conspiracy theorist, but why is it the automatic response when one of these events occurs is that the witness is "crazy", seeing things, etc.
Isn't a more logical response to open a scientific investigation? Think about what's potentially at stake: a history-changing event. Why isn't the phenomena taken more seriously?

With the alien glove, etc. will come the necessity to take this development seriously. But frankly, when things happen I can't explain, it drives me nuts.

Here's one DIJ: Google "Crestview, Florida" late 1960's. A metallic disk sidled up to an elementary school. Everyone- teachers, kids, people driving by- saw it. The kids had to run inside. Same disk was seen lots of other local places that day. Sure seems like a nosy visitor, but I guess all 200 people were just "crazy" and "seein' things."

This'll creep ya out- local one:

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/1998/aug/m31-009.shtml

• USA, Florida, Crestview: More than two hundred children and three teachers saw an oval object, with a light at each end, come to ground level. Several other objects also were seen, moving up and down with a pendulum motion.

http://www.bibleufo.com/ufos935.htm



Ad Astra
 
Question:

A LOT of people on here talking about quantifiable, scientific, hard evidence...

Any scientists here?

Just curious to know what someone who uses the scientific method on a daily basis has to say about inexplicable phenomenon. Seems from history, a great deal of good science began with some pretty crazy ideas. How would one go about testing for probabilities that could not be tested, reproduced?
 
I think there' a lot of confused argument here, mixed argument.

Just because some people call those who report UFOs crazy, doesn't mean I am dismissing them as such. Because the scientific method requires data, which data I believe should be available by now but isn't, doesn't mean I believe we can't have a discussion.

But the discussion is exploratory. It cannot be scientific, based only on reports. Reports cannot be accepted simply because people say they're telling the truth. UFO accounts are notoriously falsified. And then the false reports are used as evidence that something is out there. And debunked reports are still out there to be picked up by a later generation of "investigators".

You're not an investigator because you read stories. You have to go out and take pictures, bring back material evidence, and subject it to serious testing.

One of the statements about science in our era has been attributed to a number of sources. It's good wherever it comes from: the universe is not only stranger than we know; it's stranger than we can know.

This is about complexity beyond our own technology, but it's also about phyical law that we cannot determine from a limited framework. We may need to leave Earth, and not just by sending out the occasional rocket-borne payload, before we can understand what forces may be out there.

As far as daydreamers, it's true in a limited sense that someone needs an idea before he can implement it, but most of the daydreamers you listed, Jimmy, were implementing their own ideas, not investigating a murky hypothetical phenomenon. And most of them were extremely hard-headed about applying the technology available to them.
 
brokenhallelujah said:
Just curious to know what someone who uses the scientific method on a daily basis has to say about inexplicable phenomenon. Seems from history, a great deal of good science began with some pretty crazy ideas. How would one go about testing for probabilities that could not be tested, reproduced?
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Science does not deal with inexplicable phenomena. Science deals with data. hard facts. No facts, no science.

It is entirely legitimate to collect reports as a guide to where facts may be hiding, but until material evidence emerges from the fog, there is nothing for science to work with.

Science does not begin with crazy ideas. That misunderstanding relates to what the common belief might be, not to the theory and practice available to scientists at the time.

Until there is data, there are no probabilities.
 
brokenhallelujah said:
Question:

A LOT of people on here talking about quantifiable, scientific, hard evidence...

Any scientists here?
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I'm a computer systems engineer, does that count?

As for whether there or aliens or not - from the sheer volume of sightings, we can make a reasonable inference that there is 'something' flying through our skies that we've never had a really good look at. Trying to dismiss every single 'sighting' as hysteria or hallucination is a poor decision -- but at the same time, just because everyone thought they saw alien spacecraft doesn't mean they actually did.

For example, it could be some kind of bizarre natural phenommenon beyond our current knowledge. It could be an isolated group of technologically advanced humans checking up on us. It could be a number of coincidentally similar factors, including balloons, swamp gas, and smoking too much pot. It could be aliens. We don't have enough information to say anything about what it is that is appearing in our skies, but we can be reasonably certain that whatever it is, it does exist.

my $0.02
 
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