Something important to me and to us all

JimmyJimenez said:
I think another poster put it well with the "odds" argument.

In this case, the question can be made like this.............

What are the odds that this little speck of dust in the Universe, what we call "Earth", is the only speck in this entire universe that somehow developed what we consider to be intelligent life?

I think with the outrageous odds being in favor of other life forms having developed, it then leaves the door wide open to a "possibility" of there being life somewhere so advanced that it makes our intelligence seem miniscule. This would also open the "possibility" of there being a life form that can visit our planet.

To this day, humans are still discovering animals and plant life that had never before been scientifically documented (and that's only on this small speck called Earth). Did they not exsist because the scientific world knew nothing about them?

So what mysteries does the entire Universe have in store for us? I find it mind boggling to even try to imagine.

Of course, this is only one man's opinion, we are all allowed to believe in whatever we want :)
Click to expand...

There is another point that is nearly impossible to appreciate; but, which need to be factored into any reasonable discussion of UFOs. Space is BIG, it operates on a scale which is entirely different from anything we can experience in our daily lives. The probability that life, with the sort of technology that we are talking about, coming to be is almost a certainty. Yet the probability that such life would 1) develop "reasonably" proximate to us (say within a million light-years), and that they would actually be able to discover something the size of our system within that vastness would be near impossible. There is a finite amount of time during which the entire section of space will exist, and only so much time for things to happen. It is arrogant that within such vastness we would be found special enough to be worth anyone's time.

This is one of my favorite photos taken by Hubble (it is a deep field image that captures some 3000 galaxies in a single segment of space) In 100 million years light would only travel part way across any one of those galaxies. So even if you standing somewhere out there with unlimited technology and staring directly at the tiny bit of space occupied by ourselves; you wouldn't be able to see us until billions of years after our own sun goes supernova and wipe us all out.

deepfield_hst.jpg


n2s
 
not2sharp wrote: "It is arrogant that within such vastness we would be found special enough to be worth anyone's time"

This large vastness is such for us, but would it not be just as arrogant to not believe that a possible superior life form may not consider these distances and vastness' anywhere near as overwhelming as us, and in fact consider these distances very easy to manage. Again, we have to consider looking outside the box.
If there is advanced lifeform(s) out there, who is to say that they are not capable of easily detecting whatever other life forms are out there, maybe with uncomprehendable ease. Thinking outside the box, that is what "possibilities" sometimes requires one to do.

You may still be looking at all of this through the knowledge of humans, but what if the knowledge of humans is very miniscule (in the grand scheme of things).



Esav Benyamin wrote:
"As far as daydreamers, it's true in a limited sense that someone needs an idea before he can implement it, but most of the daydreamers you listed, Jimmy, were implementing their own ideas, not investigating a murky hypothetical phenomenon. And most of them were extremely hard-headed about applying the technology available to them."

At some given point people simply reach enough technology, on purpose or by accident, where they can prove what they thought could be done or what they thought was real, but had not yet been proven.

But oftentimes there were ideas and/or possibilities that were mentioned way before anything hard could be gained as evidence of it. This may very well be the situation we are describing here. We are advanced, at least so we think. If human civalization is around 1000 years from now, and way further advanced than us now, they too will feel that they are at such an advanced level (until of course another millenium passes). Will we then be able to explore extremely deep into our Universe? Who knows, but this could be happening right now with some other very advanced life beings from some other part of the Universe. They could be using equipment that we may not be able to comprehend, even if they could explain it to us. And when our civilization advances another 1000 years, so will theirs, maybe always keeping extreme technological superiority over us.

You said..... "daydreamers you listed, Jimmy, were implementing their own ideas, not investigating a murky hypothetical phenomenon"

But don't you see, there have also been many examples in our evolving history where that was exactly what people thought about something, it being some "murky hypothetical phenomenon", and at times the possibilities turned out to be true.
Again, before anyone could see, feel, or prove that there was microbial organisms, there were people that wondered if there were such things. It simply took a long time to prove whether it was true or not (which it was). It may be the same for intelligent space organisms, just can't prove it, but there have been hints for the possibility that this may be a reality :)

We have many scientists that have gone on record in saying that the odds of there being life elsewhere is good. They look at the numbers, and not only see "possibilities", but even "probabilities".

Oh my, the possibilities :) (nevermind me, I'm daydreaming) ;)

We will just have to agree to disagree, since I think we have both definitely defended our positions well, but it is plain to see that we see things differently (which in this case is not a bad thing) :)

I'm telling you brother, check out "Chicken Little"! ;)
 
Not2Sharp...

I think you're overlooking the fact that the millions of light years pre-supposes they are travelling in a " conventional " vehicle as we know it and moving in space rather than through or around it. Apart from the theoretical ideas we have such as using wormholes or black holes to travel great distances/times quickly there is always something like the idea in Dune where highly advanced pilots " bend " space using their minds in order to travel pretty much instantaneously, this seems farfetched but if one can exert " will " over " matter " than i imagine it would be childs play the caveat being if and when. As for whether we are important enough to bother with, well, who knows what might be the reasons behind anything a truly alien race would do?
we could be something they stumbled upon by accident, then again we could their proof of a God or a future food source or simply a playground for their children, who knows? but I think the idea we have some worth, whatever that is, to another sentient species is no less valid than saying we mean nothing in the scheme of things.
 
Ne nu, na nu :)

That's a phrase used by Robin Williams in the old TV series "Mork and Mindy" (for you younger folk out there) ;)
 
my folks and several hundred others saw ufos in Walpole NH (I believe that was the town but I need to check with them--for the year also) My parents are very straight laced, conservative science minded people. I believe them. It was the local sherriff who called my dad's sister to tell her to come up to the hill--that she HAD to see what was going on. Many, many lights flying in formation IIRC. That moved from one horizon to another in the blink of an eye.

I can get more specific infor on this for you Danny if you want.
 
I can appreciate that people, without having done any real research into this subject, might think that there isnt any hard, physical evidence. If you only watch TV or surf the web, than that is probably what you would think.
It is not true.

You might also be led to think that UFO reports are "notoriously falsified." That is also blatantly untrue. (It's about as true as saying rape victims are often liars - less than 2% of reports are proven false)

If you want to have a serious discussion then you need to go to the libraries, folks, not the internet nor TV. I've been a bookworm and I can point you to such evidence, but it's not on the internet. You'll have to put your shoes on.

If anyone here doubts the fact that the US has, in its possession, one or more discs, then you have noone left to listen to. Even the Govt told us they have a disc, and probably several more AND bodies and debris.

We not only have physical evidence, we have biological evidence. People, this isnt some imaginary theory. It was released to the press by the Air Force itself. Do you really think the guys who delivered and dropped two nuclear bombs are so stupid that they would :
A. mistake a balloon for a saucer
B. accidentally create and transmit a press release about capturing a flying disc ?

Even the Condon committe, upon inspecting a fragment of metal from an alleged UFO crash in Brazil, was forced to admit that "the metal was unique"
100 % pure Magnesium26, unachievable by Earth technology.(at that time) Need more be said?

If you want to use the word "conspiracy" and then determine that such things are not real and that, therefore, anyone who points to that must be a liar, then go right ahead. Much smarter, accomplished men than any of you disagree. (no offence)

When the head research scientist at NASA confirms that:
A. it is stated NASA policy (originally a NACA policy) that UFO's do not exist and are not to be discussed with the public
B. UFO's were regularly sighted by Astronauts and their transmissions became censored by NASA to prevent public release of this information
C. He himself has witnessed UFO's on two occasions.

I am inclined to believe him.

Just because some people on the internet think that there is no hard evidence and that science has nothing but reports does not make it true. More than a few people have died from radiation poisoning because they got to close to these vehicles when they were in operation. Their temp dropped, the bled out every hole. It's not a joke.

Is it conspiracy? No, its just national security policy. This technology represents a trump to basically every form of conventional weapon and defensive system known to mankind. It has been in our nations' best interest to control access to this technology.
Hey, I dont want Osama getting his hands on it!

September, 1967 Russel Hill Calgary, Canada
4 greenish-colored UFO's spotted, 75 feet in diameter, pulsating sound as they moved overhead.
 
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/casebook.htm

What's disturbing is when a whole bunch of people have a sighting, the thing takes off in a certain direction, then folks states away see the same thing. Pretty undeniable. Time travel? Aliens? Some other weird thing not yet understood by science? No one can say with certainty, but they ARE seeing SOMETHING.

Report it, and the sheriff asks if you been drinkin'.

Report it, and nobody takes you seriously again. "He's that dude that seen them aliens..."


Ad Astra
 
Ad Astra said:
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/casebook.htm

What's disturbing is when a whole bunch of people have a sighting, the thing takes off in a certain direction, then folks states away see the same thing. Pretty undeniable. Time travel? Aliens? Some other weird thing not yet understood by science? No one can say with certainty, but they ARE seeing SOMETHING.

Report it, and the sheriff asks if you been drinkin'.

Report it, and nobody takes you seriously again. "He's that dude that seen them aliens..."


Ad Astra
Click to expand...

That's why I don't think I would report a UFO sighting. I would probably discuss it with close friends and family, but not to any authorities (for the reasons you pointed out).

Besides, what are they going to do, put out an all points bulletin............ LOL! :)

It's also why I feel that for every reported UFO sighting, there are many many more that probably go unreported.
 
This is the best UFO discussion we've had here. Very interesting stuff.




munk
 
munk said:
This is the best UFO discussion we've had here. Very interesting stuff.




munk
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's even got me wanting to go out and purchase a new telescope (have not had one in many years) :)
 
The government has a disc? I was not aware of this.

Perhaps some definitions are in order here. I have no doubt that UFO's exist. I've seen UFO's myself. Just because I didn't know what I was seeing does not mean that I was seeing an alien.

I recommend anyone interested to read a bit on how people process and retain information, and how their experiences and opinions shape their memories of things. People remember only what they want to remember, and they remember it how they want to remember it. (That last bit's important, by the way.) The testimony of one person is nearly worthless without any supporting evidence. The testimony of twenty people (or fifty people, or a hundred people) is also nearly worthless if they talked to one another before being interviewed.

Download a movie clip from the internet somewhere -- it doesn't matter what or where, as long as you haven't seen it before. Make sure it's a few minutes long. Watch it. Afterwards, write down what happened and be specific. Then, watch the movie again and compare it to your notes. Do not feel bad if you got some things wrong and missed other things entirely; even people who are trained to do this have problems with it. It's part of the way the human mind works and really can't be avoided. (For fun, try it with a different movie while you're tired/sleepy/excited/distracted/drunk/whatever, and remember the results the next time you're reading about a UFO abduction in the middle of the night.)

I am purposefully avoiding fatigue-related hallucinations, as that's another subject entirely. I'm talking about how people screw things up when their minds are functioning properly.

I'm with Esav on this one; everyone has a digicam and a cell phone with a camera these days. Where is all the evidence?

I don't personally believe that the government could keep something secret for nearly sixty years. A decade or two, maybe -- and only if no one is looking for what's being hidden. Historical events would seem to support my position on this.
 
Persev said:
Not2Sharp...

I think you're overlooking the fact that the millions of light years pre-supposes they are travelling in a " conventional " vehicle as we know it and moving in space rather than through or around it. Apart from the theoretical ideas we have such as using wormholes or black holes to travel great distances/times quickly there is always something like the idea in Dune where highly advanced pilots " bend " space using their minds in order to travel pretty much instantaneously, this seems farfetched but if one can exert " will " over " matter " than i imagine it would be childs play the caveat being if and when. As for whether we are important enough to bother with, well, who knows what might be the reasons behind anything a truly alien race would do?
we could be something they stumbled upon by accident, then again we could their proof of a God or a future food source or simply a playground for their children, who knows? but I think the idea we have some worth, whatever that is, to another sentient species is no less valid than saying we mean nothing in the scheme of things.
Click to expand...

Anything is possible; yet, wouldn't such an advance civilization, one which is capable to reach across all of space to detect an insignificant spec in a far off corner, be also capable of monitoring our civilization without doing something so boneheaded as to accidentally reveal themselves? It doesn't make much sense; and we are supposed to believe that this happens with great frequency, so apparently the Grays are completely cavalier about coming and going. Why don't they simply drop in in the middle of Times Square lean back and watch everyone run around in circles?

I believe that UFOs fall under the same catagory as other mass dillusions. It is the same thing as people who think they have seen Elvis, monsters, religious icons, or miracles. We want to believe, and it is so easy to go with the suggestion and to ignore all evidence that may inconveniently prove otherwise. There always seems to be someone out there who is willing to create an illusion to satisfy our desires.

For the record I did have two engineers return from a site survey in a funny state, and after some questioning, I got them to reluctantly admit that they had spotted what looked like a UFO. But, both of these people had been sent in from a sea level town to conduct a mapping exercise at 13,000-14,000 feet. Well above the level at which aircraft are required to pressurize their cabins.

n2s
 
Hmmmmm, Dave and Esav are being AWFULLY defensive about all of this. Methinks, we might have visitors in our midsts.

I gots my eyes on you, ET:grumpy: ;)

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Jake
 
You know all those times in the past when I said that I was in need of a more suitable host body?

I was only joking. Really.

And just a brief word of warning between friendly beings: the mothership can see right through those tinfoil hats. Lead's better.
 
The media and the general public will overreact in an occasionally unpredictable direction.

On the one hand, during the Silly Season, when people are off on summer vacation and the newspapers are desperate for copy, lo! the flying saucer reports abound.

On the other hand, when a serious report comes in, from people determined to be heard, what do those same newspapers do? They exercize their journalistic standards of scepticism and pick the story apart.

Ya can't win for losing.

In 1968 I was stationed in an isolated area with advanced radio and radar systems. We worked in a secure area with an Air Policeman at the gate.

One night, he came inside (uh-oh! not supposed to leave his post!) and refused to calm down or go back out. He had been watching the sky over the sea and spotted a light, maneuvering rapidly and erratically. Classic UFO, and we were all Air Force, we knew what was normal, especially in that area. That was our job ...

We checked the system for anomalous readings, found one that might have been, reported it to XXXXXXXXXXXXX, and were told to forget it. We sent in what we had, and dropped it. I don't recall anyone going out to look.

Personally, I wasn't real impressed, even if I was the one who had to write the report. The Air Policeman admitted he had been heavily into UFO books recently.

But if "they" are here, that would have been a pretty good sighting, even if it was at night. A lot of sightings are no more convincing, but they wouldn't be, would they? Most people aren't trained observers, and haven't had access to recording equipment.

The Air Force does, and has been tracking for Air Defense purposes, much more than just over North America. The field I was in was exactly where possible UFO contact would have been very much "need to know".

I refuse to believe The Government has a saucer stashed somewhere and none of us heard about it, even semi-officially.
 
Whistling dizzily overhead,
the saucer spins, I leap from bed,
the little green men float eerily,
I watch them waving, wearily.

It's always the same, they seem to say,
we're glad we came to Earth today;
but, don't you wonder, won't they stay?
They drift and tilt and go away.

It's always the same, they never speak:
I never hear a peep or a squeak.
Quietly staring, whatever they seek,
their alien eyes are always bleak.

It's always the same, I seem to dream,
like smoke that gleams in a fading beam.
Their eyes aglow, like wisps of steam,
and time goes by like a stagnant stream.

Whistling languidly, singing goodbye,
I wish you a pleasant trip, I cry.
The little green men float eerily,
I watch them waving, wearily.

-- Esav Benyamin
 
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