Something important to me and to us all

YVSA said:
At first I thought it was a satellite the way it was traveling across the sky.
Then suddenly it changed direction at about a 45 degree angle or so and then at a greater speed than it was traveling to begin with it disappeared from sight.
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YVSA,

I believe that you saw what you saw. This is a little like a magic show where you see a guy pull a rabbit out of a hat; it looks so real, yet you know that there must be a trick to it. With UFOs the illusion seems just as real only there is enough doubt that it cannot so easily be relegated as an illusion.

One possibility is that you may have seen an after image. You walk outside, glance at a bright light, and then turn and look at a darken field (like a night sky). A light appears to be dancing around up there; it manuvers wildly since the image moves with your eye movement, then it slowly fades away. The illusion can be even worse when there are multiple people involved, which may be what happened to my engineers. You are both sitting there taking bearing and you take a bearing at or near the direction of the sun. Then you turn in another direction and someone notices a light in the sky. You look and sure enough it is there. He says look it is moving to the right and as you look towards the right it seems to move to the right. Each of you is reinforcing the illusion for the other, it certainly seems real, but it is not.

Here try this one:
http://www.yorku.ca/eye/afterima.htm

n2s
 
There are many, many reports, and if you like I will restrict my data to those, that lasted more than a few seconds. Some of them last minutes, even more than one hour.
These were not all little lights. Many were massive, metallic objects, some of them 1000 feet long, that hovered silently, without motion, until accelerating away at 100gs or more.
Witnessed by pilots, engineers, police, you name it.
Theres nothing you can say to such people, nothing.
They know what they saw and it was not
A. an illusion
B. human

If that scares you, Im sorry, it scares me a little bit too, but we have to get over the fear and try to make this situation a benefit to us all.

Dave, Esav, my grandparents and thousands of others in Dallas and Fort Worth lined the streets to watch the army trucks bringing the roswell debris to carlswell AFB back in 47. (It was later transferred to Wright Patterson AFB)
It was no secret until later, when the govt decided what it wanted to do and set forth clear policy. Before then, it had all been an open matter.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Whistling dizzily overhead,
the saucer spins, I leap from bed,
the little green men float eerily,
I watch them waving, wearily.

It's always the same, they seem to say,
we're glad we came to Earth today;
but, don't you wonder, won't they stay?
They drift and tilt and go away.

It's always the same, they never speak:
I never hear a peep or a squeak.
Quietly staring, whatever they seek,
their alien eyes are always bleak.

It's always the same, I seem to dream,
like smoke that gleams in a fading beam.
Their eyes aglow, like wisps of steam,
and time goes by like a stagnant stream.

Whistling languidly, singing goodbye,
I wish you a pleasant trip, I cry.
The little green men float eerily,
I watch them waving, wearily.

-- Esav Benyamin
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Very good!
 
Hmm...I'm at Wright Patterson. I've been at the base or lived next to it for over 20 years, had access to most buildings here as the base weapons inspector and am currently work in the HQ building. From that, I believe that there are no alien artifacts on base. That said...they never leak the truth...they know that it's best to leak false information and keep you busy following dead ends.

I guess my bottom line is pretty much as I first said...the sightings may have been recorded were when stealth technology failed and we saw something we weren't supposed to.

I guess it comes down to this with me. If they don't want to be seen and are merely observing us and waiting, I would suppose they have good reasons such as: the knowledge would harm us (perhaps there are politics going on in the universe and as long as we are Earthbound and ignorant of it we are considered neutral and to be left alone...the spotted owls of the universe); it would interfere with our free development (wow...maybe they are evolved enough to actually value individuality) finally, we are clearly a dangerous species.

I agree with Yvsa...I'm *not* a UFO nut...but I do respect their opinions and even wonder how much may be going on that I don't know about.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
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Jake
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Methinks there is a considerable difference between a UFO sighting, and the Roswell little green men mindset. As an official doubting Thomas, and card-carrying science teacher with a 30 year law enforcement background, I like friend Esav, want evidence.

Having said that, about twentyfive years ago my wife and I watched a bright light accelerate forward then hover like a hummingbird several times, before doing a 160 degree turn and accelerating clear across the sky from north to south and out of view. This was about 9pm on a clear late summer night. Unidentified? Absolutely. Seen by others? Yes. Little green men? Not until I have proof. Unidentified does not equal threat of invasion, just not explained.
 
Nasty, I remember you saying that you had never seen anything like what I mentioned at Wright Patterson, but according to the Air Force, there was and may still be a materials research center at that base, and something called A.T.I.C. (Air Technical Intelligence Center) Now, this thing was in operation in the 50`s, so you might not have seen it if it has since changed locations, however it was never a secret, always a matter of public record.

I dont remember saying the word invasion. I meant to say visitation, but Im not sure if I even said that. Its all simple deduction: Natural phenomenon do not do what we are observing. Therefore, these objects are under intelligent control. Intelligent control means someone is flying or controlling these objects. The objects have display abilities far beyond any Earth technology, both now and 2000 years ago. They must then be under the control of non-human intelligence. Theres no big leap of faith here. If, then, therefore, etc...
 
what about all them sightings of formations of triangular light patterns whizzing about the night skies and not showing up on radar! must be aliens.
f117.jpg
 
No doubt some of the kooky and secret craft built by our Armed Forces have been responsible for a very small percentage of the reports. However, I have serious doubts about the USAF special projects being so prevalent in the skies of Arkansas in 1897.
I have doubts about these aircraft landing in Germany during the middle ages and terrorizing a village to the point that the local bishop declared "sky travellers" to be unlawful.

There ARE top secret craft and some of them ARE pretty unusual, (like the Avrocar and that corvair water plane) but they could only constitute a small percentage and only within the last 40-50 years. We have thousands of years of reports here.

I considered all of these things, in depth and at length. I considered no single factor, but all of them with as much objectivity as I could muster. There is only one logical conclusion.
 
one must consider temporal as well as spacial travellers visiting us. could be an experimental space/time vehicle that not only flies around our skies, but can go back to 1897 or the hundred years war or earlier..... archaeologists from 3063 a.d. sampling the past....

the other possibility:

they're people, just like us, well, mebbe not quite like us on the outside.
farside2.jpg
 
The temporal thing I have considered, yes.
The number of credible reports of non-human occupants, however, leaves me thinking that the temporal option, although valid, cannot be 100% of the sightings.
The reports of large -headed, smallish visitors in association with these objects go back to at least the roman times in literature and possibly to the stone age in art.

Im sorry, im at my wifes parents house tonight so i cant put up some references for you. Ill do it as soon as we get back to Noda.
 
I am a scientist and philosopher. With that background in mind, let us examine some of the claims made here.

I'd like to begin by saying that it is the primary goal of science to describe/explain what we observe, and secondarily, to allow us to observe things we couldn't observe before. That said, science will necessarily eventually (or maybe it already has?) explain the nature of UFOs. As weird as the odds seem that a 100 people could simeltaneously hallucinate a similar or same object, it's actually far, far, far less likely that it's aliens. Note that this argument has no bearing on whether or not there are aliens in the universe. That is irrelevant to the discussion here. If we can't all agree that there probably is other life out there, then we can almost definitely agree that we are probably not ever going to be able to prove there isn't. So we should accept the possibility of life elsewhere as a valid premise.

I'll start with the most recent, the temporal traveler. Logically, if we allow for backwards time travel, and allow for an infinite future (a necessary thing if you have time travel. You needn't ever reach that end), then all moments everywhere in the entire universe will likely be filled with time travelers. It's a fascinating idea, but the logical problems are common in it, so I don't think it's a worthwhile place to investigate at the moment. I can think of quite a few right now. Nonetheless, an excellent thought experiment.

And now I'm forced to debate probabilities of spontaneous life as we know it. I won't bother with it too much, except that, within the scope of our universe as we know it, it is far, far, far more likely that there is an advanced species of civilization on earth that we don't know about than there is to be one elsewhere.

In regards to spatial distortion as a means of instantaneous travel, it's an interesting idea. However, we note that our UFOs appear to move very quickly. This is a problem, because UFOs should never move at all if we accept the hypothesis of some sort of far reaching spatial distortion movement. They should merely exist where they're wanted.

One of the most telling problems is the aliens' apparent inability to disguise themselves...as mentioned earlier, they apparently hovered in front of a school? This is very atypical behavior for a species that wishes to remain secret. I assume that they do, otherwise, they would just hang out with us face to face. This is of course, from a human culturocentric perspective, I suppose.

We're also attributing far too much personality to the aliens. I can't think of much of a good reason at all for human beings to have free will, conscience thought, etc. We should be open to the idea that our visitors resemble humanity in no way whatsoever...and are more comparable to ants that can use tools. From a Dawkins genetic perspective, and we assume that the premise is true of any life anywhere (although the actual mechanisms will be quite different), their bodies and "minds" are merely tools to help the genes replicate.

What's with the dissimilarity between the UFO vehicles? I'd imagine there'd at least be a consistent theme, a most efficient form. Cars or aeroplanes all basically resemble each other, but not so among UFOs.

It's important for scientests to challenge ideas and shoot them down whenever possible. Once an idea is cannonized, we build new theories based on it. Therefore, it is extremely vital to avoid building false premises.

Something is happening, and that's about the extent of the real world knowledge. If there was good proof, we wouldn't be having this debate.

I actually have seen a UFO in real life once, although I don't attribute to aliens (I personally don't believe there are aliens on or near earth). It was bizarre, like nothing I've read about. It was night on a country back road, late at night, probably 2 am or so. It was hovering silently, not moving at all, about 100 feet off the ground...not very high. In size and vaguely in shape it resembled a helicoptor. It had giant spot lights all over it, maybe as many as six off the top of my head. It didn't really appear to have any magical properties, the light, it looked like yellow artificial light, as we actually do get out of our spot lights. The giant beams of light appeared to be pointed in random directions...they were at weird angles to the craft. I had two friends in my car and both saw it.
 
As to spatial distortion and time travel, you ought to note that those were ideas put forward by other persons than myself in this thread. I do not believe that these ideas are necessary to a scientific explanation of UFOs, but, if we are to actually be scientific, then we have to examine every option. Also remember, just being educated isnt the same as having researched a subject in depth. Doctors dont design jet engines. Both people are educated, both scientists, but not necessarily knowledgable in all areas. Am I a qualified Stellar Astrophysicist or an Aerospace engineer? No, but I have spent the last two years pouring over reports, (in books, not the internet) many of them govt publications from the time before offical policy stated that these things do not exist. (Despite the claims of 8 different astronauts)


What's with the dissimilarity between the UFO vehicles?
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What dissimilarity are you referring to?
There have been, after thousands of reports have been analyzed, only about three basic forms observed:

Lenticular (lens shaped, the classic saucer shape) 60%
Cigar-shaped (or torpedo, dirrigible) 15%
The other 35% are just lights moving around, their shape was undetermined.

I dont know where some people get their ideas about UFO's, but Im pretty sure they didnt get them from books at the library. Get your shoes on guys!
There's some very interesting things to be found at the library, if you're willing to go. The internet is not the same as a book.
 
There is a vast disssimilarity in UFO reports. Basic shapes are one thing, but believe me, I've heard it all. It has lights that go around the ship. It has lights on either end. It has a big blue beam coming out of the bottom. It was a pattern of lights. It was a single light. It started out as a single light, then it became multiple lights.

Of course, there's my own UFO, which doesn't even come close to any of these.

The biggest problem that is going to be faced when trying to make strong arguments about UFOs is that they're alien-based. This is by far the least likely possibility. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but I consider it like winning the lottery five times in a row--for every single person who plays it on earth.

I also find it interesting that when we discuss life elsewhere, virtually everyone imagines a superbeing, where physical laws don't or barely apply.
The more realistic biological approach is that there is life elsewhere, and it resembles bacteria--plant life is pushing it.

From the biological perspective, the most difficult thing to believe as far as aliens go is that they will resemble us in any fundamental way. I don't think anyone here is arguing in favor of the "Grays," so this part may not apply to anyone. We also desire to speculate on their motives, but the more likely answer is that there are none. I somewhat expect other higher forms of life to lack conscience, and therefore, free will as we think of it. Even if we provide for this incredible, unbelievably rare feature of life, there's absolutely no way to know what interests them--if anything is interesting at all.

What I'm getting at here is that the huge, vast leap to aliens causes serious wounds in the argument. Arguing the existence of bizarre UFOs is quite a different thing. Again, while not impossible, it is probably trillions of times more likely to be an unknown human civilization, or maybe an unknown form of life on earth in general. I would speculate of that possibility in the oceanic depths, but I believe that's been a bit abused in literature....the super low energy lifestyle of deep sea aquatic organisms is probably not well suited to creating gorilla-like-brains. There is pretty much no guidance...or vision..you just run around in the dark until you run into something with your mouth wide open.

Until we know more about the UFOs, I'm not ready to make the logical leap to aliens. It's a fascinating thing to discuss, and I do often, but ultimately, it has serious challenges to overcome if it wants to be legitimately accepted. It could of course, be possible that our fundamental perspective of the universe is flawed, as it has been any number of times before. In affect, however, this is pointless to argue, because this could apply to anything. Just important to keep an open mind.
 
They call it FTD (Foreign Technology Division). It used to house classified Soviet Bloc stuff. Now unclassified, it has an old MIG on display in front of it. I don't know what all they might have had in it at any point in the past.

I like the temporal theory...the greys could be us in a disant future. It would help to explain the similar descriptions across the ages since they would have been from the same future.

It *might* turn out that time travel is far easier than space travel...
 
For centuries, the seas were the great unknown and unexplored. The great mystery of humankind. Fantastic tales arose, from sailors trained to know the ocean, and trained to identify the seas. There were literally hundreds of thousands of eyewitness accounts of sea serpents, mermaids, and other incredible beasts, recording down every livid detail of the monsters appearances and behavior, eye color to diet. The existence of such beings were even accepted as common knowledge, and on period maps, over the unknown seas, you'll find drawings and declarations "Here be dragons". As our seafaring capabilites progressed though, these things all fell by the wayside. It was just a point of human nature to see the fantastic in the unknown, where we want to believe in something incredible. I think outer space is the untamed seas of today. I think it's likely that there is life out there, on other planets. I'm almost certain of it, the statistical probablities are very much in it's favor. But it may be very far away. Hundreds of millions of light years, and with the short time human civilization has existed, it is not likely that any sign of our resistance has yet reached that far. It's even more likely that the alien life is something just like bacteria, and very unevolved.
 
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