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Specs & Weights of Swamp Rat, Busse & Scrap Yard Knives

Discussion in 'Swamp Rat Knives' started by DWRW, Apr 29, 2010.

  1. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005
    Mike,

    Good catch and worth adding. There were quite a few variations of the DM released, but there were two main versions with the full height grind and thinner stock that are significantly different from the CG. So, I updated adding the DC and LE info. I have a CG, but never owned the LE or DC. My understanding is the LE has the same small Busse Basic handle as the CG, but the DC has the slightly larger handle used on the Yard Keeper which I am pretty sure was the same handle as on the Howling Rat.

    Most people with large hands seem to feel the Busse Basic handle like on the LE and CG is a bit small. But, the slightly larger handle on the DC is pretty good for most hands for a knife of its size. I have fairly large hands and had a Howler, Yard Keeper and the DMCG. The handles on the Howler and YK were fine for me. But, the DMCG handle was a bit small.

    ** However, I found I could modify the Res-C handle with a sharp blade and sandpaper and was able to enlarge the handle on my DMCG to fit my hand much more comfortably.

    See: http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=136545&an=0&page=5#Post136545


    Jerry Busse has also confirmed that Res-C can be cut and shaped, then finished with sandpaper when the Regulator was released as the "De-Regulator" which had the top guard/quillion cut off from the factory.

    See: http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=Knives&Number=377236&Searchpage=4&Main=377236&Words=%2Bregulator&topic=&Search=true#Post377236

    So, if you find a Res-C handle doesn't quite fit your hand as you like, you can modify it to fit your hand if needed. It is not that hard.

    *** However, I should note that the Busse brothers have hinted and might have some concerns with people modifying their Res-C handles and causing damage to the handle in the process of modifying and then want the handle covered under warranty. Personally, I feel if people make such modifications, they should take responsibilities for damage if caused by user modifications. So, take caution with modifications. If you don't think you have the skill to make the proper modifications without damaging the handle, maybe you shouldn't. But, it can be done if done carefully.

    *Tips:

    - To cut Res-C, a "RAZOR" sharp blade works way better. And cut slivers slowly rather than try to cut chunks.

    - Make sure you know where the tang is under the handle so you don't cut too close to the tang. If you do, you will loose the integrity of the Res-C at that spot.

    Here is a X-Ray pictures of the HRLM, 2nd Gen. Howler and SS4 for reference:

    [​IMG]

    Swamp Rat tang & handle cut-away:
    [​IMG]

    Regulator's tang & Handle cut-away:
    [​IMG]


    S5CG's tang:

    [​IMG]

    Notice the significantly thick and beefy radius between the ricasso and tang. Most other knife makers have a square/thin/non-radiused transition from ricasso to tang. Busse's technique is WAY tougher and stronger.

    Most knife makers square of the transition from the ricasso to tang so they can add a seperate guard piece. But, here is a common problem with squared off (not reinforced) transitions from ricasso to tang:

    [​IMG]



    *** I have never seen one of the Busse and kin tangs broken yet.

    ------

    On the topic of handle modifications, sandpaper works on Micarta and G10 as well - just don't breath the resin dust! Always wear a mask if sanding micarta or G10!

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2010
  2. lostzebrastripes

    lostzebrastripes Therefore, you will... NARFLE THE GARTHOK!

    566
    May 31, 2010
    Mini Mojo (SR-101)……….. = ??? ounces; ???” thick; 6.875” blade; 12.625” oal

    Noticed you didn't have the all the info:
    17.6 ounces
    2.45" thick on both the spine and hook

    Please note the version I have is the one with the hook and micarta handles.

    Thanks again, Mike
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2010
  3. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005
    Thanks lostzebrastripes. I appreciate the fill-in info.

    I updated the info.

    I assumed you meant 0.245" thick ;)

    I went ahead and used your info to "Estimate" the Mini Uncle Mojo at about 0.3 ounces lighter without the blade catch and put the Mini Uncle Mojo down at 17.3 ounces.
     
  4. Jaytock

    Jaytock

    109
    Dec 12, 2010
    Thanks for putting this together DWRW, and thanks to all that posted the fill in info. It's great having all the specs together for reference. :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2010
  5. azwelke

    azwelke azwelke.com Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 12, 2007
    Here are a couple you needed:thumbup:

    The SAR 6 weighs 16.3 ounces

    The KZII weighs 33.1 ounces

    I have a .280" NMFBM CG weighs 32.9 ounces:)

    I have a FFBM with red black mag G10's weighs 33.1 ounces:eek:
     
  6. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005
    Thanks Azwelke. I have updated.

    I didn't realize there was a .28" thick NMFBM - it has been added.


    Do you have the other specs for the KZII - I never saw those specs posted anywhere.... and I couldn't afford that one to measure it myself.

    .
     
  7. azwelke

    azwelke azwelke.com Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 12, 2007
    The KZII is 12" blade, 6 5/8"" handle, 18 5/8" oal
    .300" thick:)
    33.1 ounces with micarta handles. (With G10 it may weigh closer to the TT.)
     
  8. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005
    Updated. Thanks!

    I would love to have some more of the holes updated.
     
  9. lostzebrastripes

    lostzebrastripes Therefore, you will... NARFLE THE GARTHOK!

    566
    May 31, 2010
    Rodent Solution: 6.4 ounces
     
  10. 88MISDIFIFJJJJ

    88MISDIFIFJJJJ

    192
    Jan 8, 2007
    .....................
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2011
  11. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005

    Sorry for the slow reply.

    I never had the CG. I had the LE and have the specs posted for the LE. I assume you saw.

    Scrap Yard has the specs posted on their website for the CG as the same lengths as the LE, but list the thickness at 3/16" = 0.1875"

    The LE was very thick at .268" thick.

    If that is accurate, then the CG would weigh a little less.

    Without somebody weighing to confirm, I could only "guess" a weight of about 6.7 - 7.0 ounces for the CG depending on the grind of the CG which I can't remember. (?????)

    The LE has a full height flat grind.

    I don't remember if the CG had a full height flat grind or if it had a saber grind.

    A full height flat grind reduces weight a bit.
    A saber grind adds weight a bit.
     
  12. 88MISDIFIFJJJJ

    88MISDIFIFJJJJ

    192
    Jan 8, 2007
    ........................
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2011
  13. Hooker

    Hooker

    663
    Jun 3, 2009
    Some edits to consider.
    Scrapavore CG (Cupidvore), .140 thick, 2.0 oz.
    HCLE 4.0 2010 (thought it was G10 but looks more like black canvas) is 6.7 oz.
     
  14. Nternal

    Nternal Banned BANNED

    Dec 24, 2010
    Anybody know why the RMD LE is so heavy? I'm not saying It's a bad thing because I like the feel but it seems pretty heavy for something it's size. Is Sr 101 a heavier steel?
     
  15. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005
    I don't actually have an RMDxLE. I probably would, but I already have a SJTAC that I had already heavily modified to be quite similar to the shape, size and dimensions (* minus the top guard/quillion) of the RMDxLE - prior to the RMDxLE being released. With funds being tight lately, I had to pass on the RMDxLE - feeling I had that niche reasonably covered - Like my modified SJTAC quite a bit!

    That said, weight and feel are a matter of personal preference and "Perception".

    IMO, especially compared to most other Busse and kin knives with micarta type handles, the RMDxLE appears QUITE light-weight. The RMDxLE has a fairly thin blade.
    With my modified SJTAC having a very similar blade thickness, shape and length, I feel my SJTAC is fairly slender and reasonably light.

    The RMDxLE is VERY light compared to the M6 or ASH1CG!

    Compare similar 6" range blades:

    Desert Jack (micarta) (SR-101) = 10.0 ounces; .175” thick; 6.0” blade; 11.25” oal

    RatManDeaux (RMDx LE) (Black Paper micarta) (SR-101) ("FULL" Height Convex grind!) = 12.2 ounces; "approx." .1875"; 6.0” blade; 11.25” oal

    M6 (SR-101)(micarta) = 16.2 ounces; .235" thick; 6" blade; 11.68" oal

    Mini Mojo (SR-101) (blade catch) (micarta)………...... = 17.6 ounces; .245” thick; 6.875” blade; 12.625” oal
    Mini Uncle Mojo (SR-101) (No blade catch) (micarta) = 17.3 ounces; .245” thick; 6.875” blade; 12.625” oal

    ---

    SJ (aka: SHSJ) CG & LE………………....... = 11.0 ounces; .205" thick; 6.25" blade; 11.5" oal
    Boss Jack Proto (micarta) (Large Choil) = 11.55 ounces; .22” thick; 6.2” blade; 11.25” oal
    Boss Jack (G10) (Large Choil)............. = 12.35 ounces; .22" thick; 6.2" blade; 11.25" oal
    SJTAC (Convex)…............................ = 13.25 ounces; .187” thick; 6.375” blade; 11.875” oal
    SJTAC-LE (Convex)......................... = ??? ounces; .22" thick; 6.375” blade; 11.875” oal

    Tankbuster = 18.25 ounces; 0.25” thick; 6.375” blade; 12.0” oal
    Hell Razor.. = 14.75 ounces; .1875” thick; 6.625” blade; 12.75” oal

    SARSquatch (linen) (Convex) = 17.0 ounces; .1875” thick; 7.0” blade; 12.75” oal

    Skinny ASH1 (micarta) (Convex grind) = 14.85 ounces; .1875” thick; 6.4” blade; 12.0” oal
    Skinny ASH1 (G10) (Convex grind).... = 15.25 ounces; .1875” thick; 6.4” blade; 12.0” oal
    ASH1 – LE (Flat grind)………………….…. = 15.15 ounces; .22” thick; 6.4” blade; 12.0” oal
    ASH1 – CG (Flat grind)…………........… = 21.0 ounces; 0.320” thick; 6.4” blade; 12.0” oal

    ------

    The only blades that really weigh less than the RMDxLE are the various Jack blades with skinny/narrow blade heights.

    The Scrap Yard S6LE has a much thicker blade, but also much lighter handle - still weighs more than the RMDxLE:

    (SY) Scrapper 6 LE (SR-77) = 12.7 ounces; .268" thick; 6.25" blade; 11.44" oal

    -----------

    The Paper micarta handles probably weigh somewhere in between canvas micarta and G10. I am only guessing, but I would guess Paper micarta probably weighs closer to G10 than canvas micarta (???)

    -----------

    For knife purposes, there really isn't much noticable or "relevant" differences in weight of one steel vs. another. SR-101 is not significantly different in weight per cubic inch than other common knife steels.

    Stainless steels vary slightly more because of the addition of other elements. SR-101 is not stainless.

    Common steels that would be used for knives weigh about .2833 - .2837 pounds per cubic inch. 12x12x12 = 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot. Common steel weighs about 489.5 - 490.23 pounds per cubic foot for both stainless and most common carbon steels. At 490 pounds worth of steel, most common different steels that would be used for knives still only vary less than a pound = a very small difference in percentage of weight.

    Common Aluminum Alloys = 0.096 - 0.102 pounds per cubic inch
    Common Copper Alloys = 0.304 - 0.323 pounds per cubic inch
    Common Nickel Alloys = 0.296 - 0.321 pounds per cubic inch
    Lead = 0.410 pounds per cubic inch
    Magnesium = 0.064 pounds per cubic inch
    Titanium = 0.162 pounds per cubic inch

    .
     
  16. Nternal

    Nternal Banned BANNED

    Dec 24, 2010
    I see thanks for taking the time to type out such a detailed response, I don't own any other swamp rat or busse knives and the comparisons I were making were with the coldsteel oss, The kabar black fighter and the extrema ratio col moschin. The Rmd Le feels heavier than all these knives.
     
  17. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005
    Well... if those are the only knives you have for comparison, then I "guess" I can see why you might consider the RMDxLE a bit heavy or heavier.

    I don't know if those are the only 3 knives you own or have experience with, but "All" of the knives you mentioned are "Fighting" knives. I feel you are making a pretty significant apples and oranges comparison between the 3 you mention vs. the RMDxLE.

    I gather and "assume" your interests "currently" focus towards tactical and fighting styled knives. I also gather and "assume" a bit of "recent" interest and experiences with knives (???). No problem, but keep in mind some differences and even some of the reasoning for the differences in regards to knife design and materials used. I don't mean in any way to come across as patronizing, we all learn as we go.

    I don't have the OSS, but I have the Cold Steel Black Bear Classic = same size as the OSS, but with full tang, nickel guard and micarta handled version of the OSS. I used to have the Col Moschin, but I sold it. So, I have some familiarity with those two. I don't have the Kabar, but a quick search shows some telling info.

    The Cold Steel OSS has the rubbery Kraton handle with a hidden tang whereas the Black Bear Classic has linen micarta scales and a full tang.

    For comparison: Consider the OSS and Black Bear Classic have the same basic dimensions:

    8.25" blade
    13.375" oal
    0.1875" thick blades

    Yet the OSS is listed as weighing 9 ounces

    The Black Bear Classic is listed at 12.7 ounces, but my digital scale shows 13.10 ounces = pretty close to 4 ounces more weight.

    That should help show some how much difference a full tang and micarta vs. hidden tang and Kraton handle can make.

    1st:

    All three of your knives you are comparing the RMDxLE to have rubbery type handles. The OSS and KaBar both have Kraton rubber handles and the Col Moschin has what they call "Forprene" (????) handles. They are all a type of rubbery handle. Kraton and similar rubber materials are all much lighter than micarta and G10 type materials.

    .... So there is "One" fairly significant difference.


    2nd:

    The OSS, Kabar Fighter and the Col Moschin "All" have hidden tangs (of various design) vs. the full tang on the RMDxLE. Hidden tangs use less steel in the handle and contribute to the 2nd reason the 3 knives you compared to the RMDxLE have lighter handles.

    3rd:

    "All" three of the knives you compared to the RMDxLE are designed to be fighting and/or Tacticool styled knives. Most of the Busse and kin knives are designed to be functional in "Combat" situations - meaning function well and take the abuse of everyday combat task/chore uses - rather than specifically designed for fighting. I don't believe the RMDxLE was really designed (IMO - ???? - I don't really know what Jerry's intent was - just making my own assumptions a bit - ???) to be a fighting knife (in spite of the top guard/quillion) - although the RMDxLE is likely just as effective at fighting - especially if considering the advantages of much more damage and blood loss from slash cutting vs. stabbing - and the RMDxLE will be better at most every task and chore used for compared to the 3 you mention.

    The OSS and Col Moschin both have a double-edged blade for fighting. This double-edged grind helps lighten the blade for speed and the grind helps for stabbing type penetration. Conversely, the blade grind looses a significant amount of toughness from the significant reduction of steel. (*Not even comparing the advantages of Busse and kin steel toughness!). There are many chore and task uses that cannot be done very well if the spine of the blade is thin or sharpened.

    In the end, Double-Edge ground blades are comparitively weak in function and use (I am being nice) for camping, trail, woods-bumming, and "Most" real world type uses.

    The Kabar Black "Fighter" is similar. It doesn't have a full double-edge grind. But, the false grind at the top is ground way back to reduce blade weight and enhance penetration abilities. It is "designed" to be a fighting knife as well. But, as with the OSS and Col Moschin, the Kabar Fighter sacrifices some of its real world/task/chore functionability to have a bit lighter and faster blade with slightly better stabbing penetration.

    Many other knives from both Cold Steel and Kabar are NOT fighters, do not have the double-edge grind or large false grinds - and therefore make better task/chore use knives.

    I like certain sub-hilt fighters and other fighting knives for collecting. I find some of them fairly "cool" aesthetically (although, I don't find Kabar knives aesthetically pleasing at all, but to each their own). Some fighters feel nice in hand - again excluding Kabar for me. I didn't like the feel/design/shape of the Col Moschin's handle either... for my hands - But, cool blade shape...

    However, I don't really expect to do much killing with a knife. So, for function and for "my" purposes, I find double-edge ground blades and/or large false grinds mostly worthless or at least way below par as real world "users" - and just fun to collect.

    Hopefully, you will broaden your collection and experiences to include some more real "user" knives soon. Hopefully, you will get some use on your RMDxLE and grow to appreciate it's real world function and usability over the other 3. Personally, I would prefer the RMDxLE without the top quillion/guard, but others seem OK with it (???). Nevertheless, the RMDxLE is pretty "EASY" to argue a better knife for every use other than knife fighting compared to the other 3.

    If you prefer lighter knives and/or lighter knife handles. Busse and kin have made quite a few VERY nice knives over the years with Res-C handles. See the list on page 1 for knives listed under "Res-C Handles", "Mudder Handles" - which are a specific texture and shape of Res-C and the "Basic" line from Busse which uses Res-C handles as well. Most of these knives are very well designed for real world task/chore uses, but offer lighter weight handles = lighter over-all weight as well.

    A few of the Cold Steel knives offer pretty decent bang for the buck. But, Busse details come out ahead and you get what you pay for. The Busse and kin knives that have a hiddent tang have a much better design than the hidden tangs on Cold Steel and most other hidden tang knives - See post #21 above. Also, I feel Busse and Kin offer better quality steel for their knives.

    I guess I would just generically call Kabar "Utilitarian" .... sometimes, but Kabar style and ergos are generally not my preference.

    Extrema Ratio seems very geared towards "Tacticool". I have a T2000 that I consider cool, but generally useless. I consider it a guilty (and questionable) piece of my collection. I consider most decent machetes, Goloks and the Waki to be WAY better for function - ANY/All function over the T2000. And most machetes and many good goloks can be had for a LOT less than the T2000... and without the silly handle shape and velcro inserts (???). The Shrapnel has a nice "Functional" use blade shape, but another way less than ideal/preferable handle design (IMO).

    Anyway, I hope you are able to gain a bit mure understanding of the differences between some of these knives.

    Good luck in your knife interests.

    .
     
  18. Nternal

    Nternal Banned BANNED

    Dec 24, 2010
    Ok I understand. I appreciate you taking the time to type all that out.
     
  19. azwelke

    azwelke azwelke.com Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Nov 12, 2007
    BJ LE with black paper micarta 269 grams or 9.5 oz
    BJ CG with G10 334 grams or 11.7 oz
    BJ proto coated with G10 355 grams or 12.5oz
     
  20. DWRW

    DWRW

    Jul 21, 2005
    Thanks Azwelke. I added the LE.

    I already had the CG with G10, but someone had posted (Somewhere) that the G10 BJ CG was 12.35 oz (???)
    I know there are variances in weight. But, with the same G10 handle material, 11.7oz to 12.35 oz = 0.65 oz seems like a bit more weight variance range than I would normally expect (???)
    I also saw your other post on the Busse forum - mentioning all where "no choil" = even more variance. I didn't notate choil vs. no choil in my list. I guesstimate only about 0.2 - 0.4 ounce variance for that (???) But, mainly, I am actually running out of characters on that post. Every time I add something, I am now having to remove or re-configure characters to get new info to fit.

    It seems pretty normal for a variance of about 0.75 - 1.0 ounce for difference between micarta and G10. So, the proto differences seem about right.

    Oh well... I just put both weights for now. I am sure many of these can have some weight variance swings up to 0.65 oz or so if some tooling or grinds become different between batches or something (???)

    .... missing a weight for the SJTACLE...
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011

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