Spine whacking? WHY????

[Akcir]

8 Glorious pages!!

Yup!
Some folks advocate it to varying degrees, and others abhor it to varying degrees. It's a pretty safe bet that no one will change their views either way.

Might as well spine whack this thread to failure. If it gets nasty, it will be probably be "locked up" solid.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[bodog]

bodog, you make the assumption that most folders and their users stab stuff.
I don't, well never with any real pressure and if I did I'd use a different tool. The vast majority of folders are bought for a cutting edge, and most aren't going to be pushed through more than carboard; not stabbed just push cut or sliced into a material. Again its trying to justify folders doing a fixed blade job, just not necessary as most people don't use them that way. I don't think Serbenza buyers require more lock than the Serbenza gives. Most folders are built to a portable compact scale and well up to the task. They are after all a "half" broken fixed blade and the lock is really just to keep them open.

A good lock at best is adequate, don't care what it is or what it surmises to be. I wouldn't trust any with any real force as they are mechanical and therefor fallible.

Passing the spine whack test proves it can, what actual benefit that is is very questionable. I think that its nice but pretty irrelevant to how I use my folders. If its important to you then fair enough.

And you assume that if someone can carry a folder, they can carry a fixed blade. People want reliability. End of story. What that means to an individual is up for debate. Personally I find it absurd that people buy a locking folder for pretty obscene amounts of money and when the lock fails they say locks aren't important. Then why spend that much money on a locking folder? Why not buy an impressive slip joint with all the bells and whistles? And if you personally don't ever use your knives for more than cutting cardboard, why do you get off on debating the necessity of a reliable lock with someone who DOES stab things, or cut in close spaces where the spine may get hit, or someone who DOES want a self defense knife, or whatever. If YOU, or anyone else for that matter, never find yourself needing a good, reliable locking folder, why are you in a thread where the OP asked the purpose of testing locks? With all due respect, your opinion doesn't mean much in this conversation if you've never needed what's being asked about. Not singling you out, the sane goes for anyone else who doesn't and won't understand someone else wanting a reliable lock on a folding knife. Statements on the web get attitudes attached where there is none. Please don't perceive me getting an attitude. I respect most people's opinions if there's a reason to do so. I'm sure your opinion is valid given your life experiences. But don't place your habits or styles or needs on anyone else like they should care. Some people want and need a reliable lock that does, in fact, withstand some actual use in a rough environment. Not some hypothetical zombie attack or scenario where you're sliding down a mountain. So they test. And some people test to failure. Some knives' locks are so good that testing to failure borders on ridiculous effort. And people TRY to come up with unbiased tests. For locking knives, there are only so many ways to objectively test multiple knives without introducing human induced variables. It's boiled down to spine whacking and weight hanging. But yes, those tests are a little unreasonable as people don't use their knives that way. Normally. How else can a lock be tested? How many companies divulge their methods? Two that I can think of. Spyderco and cold steel, and both use spine whacks and weight hangs as the standard tests. Both put out good knives and are respected as such throughout the knife world. People may not like marketing strategy or design work but I think it's safe to say both companies produce good knives and normally stand behind their products.

Tl;Dr

I don't get why people who don't need locks are 1) buying locking knives and 2) upchucking their disdain in a thread asking about testing locks. It'd be like me popping in the traditional forum saying half stops are stupid. I don't have the first clue about why someone who likes slip joint knives want a half stop, so why would I throw my two cents in? They don't make sense to me, but who am I to say that? I really don't know what they're for or what purpose they serve so who cares what I think.

 

[Cobalt]

I am just at 5 pages

 

[Lycosa]

Up to 9!!

 

[GREENJACKET]

you gotta remember most of us old timers on the forum had as many non locking knives as locking knives back in the day. We used our knives from the presumption that it would close and cut your fingers if you did not pay attention. Today, the lock advertising has created a culture of thought that folding knives should be solid like fixed blades. It has certainly made for better locking mechanisms. But now all locks are expected to sustain heavy impacts without fail .

Agreed, and yes I am an old timer.

Certainly there are some very solid locks out there. The hype and marketing behind them may well be not that far from the truth, but still they are a lock that being mechanical can fail. One huge issue is when changing knives from a vault type lock to one that is less so, and it all going wrong. Certainly when I change from one knife to another I have to adjust my thinking. Often I get bit during the change over familiarity period. Normally its a balance, length and grind thing. You are always safer with the blade you know and use regularly. (I've bust a few knives from forgetting that the particular one isn't as robust as the one I was using last week and so shouldn't have been quite so physical on it.)

There is a trend for giant folders. To me its a sales pitch and goes against my experience; I just think its a bad idea period.

 

[johnnytoxin]

Just curious if you're also questioning Andrew Demko's integrity. Either the Sebenzas failed because of truly subpar locks or Demko rigged the test by modifying the lock interface. It's not like he came up with some crazy test that can't be replicated or read a lot into nothing. He clamped the blade for safety purposes and pushed down on the handle. You can see just how easily the lock slipped. You can also see how little effort he put into it to get the lock to slip. What, maybe 5-10 lbs of pressure, if that. You bind that blade into something and it wouldn't take much to slip the lock and maybe hurt yourself. Try to stab the knife into something and there's a real chance you'll hurt yourself. It's a total false sense of security. With slip joints you wouldn't try it because there's no sense of security and anyone with some common sense knows it. With a lock, especially with the reputation of a Sebenza, you'd believe there's a safety net. It's not like we're talking about a jarbenza. I'd assume any reputable manufacturer would see a lock failing with maybe 10 lbs of pressure as a failure and either redesign the lock, offer replacements, or offer refunds. That's an engineering failure. Any reasonable person would see that. Shoot, some slip joints are harder to close than at least one of those Sebenzas in that video.

I'll say maybe Demko got a bad batch with screwed up lock interfaces, but even that's hard to believe considering the acknowledged sky high tolerance standards of CRK. And if a CRK fails so easily, maybe that's reason enough to put some decent pressure on ANY knife's lock just to make sure it won't fail if you need to stab into something with some decent force. Leave spine whacks out of it, most of us who use knives with locks want to be able to stab into something without the knife inadvertently closing on our fingers. Stabbing into something requires a moderately strong lock. Not anything crazy, but something reliable and reasonably strong. I'd guess 50 lbs of pressure unless you're a strong person and using everything you have. Maybe that's what should be tested rather than spine whacks and obvious downward force on the handle. Stab into something hard and while stabbing create some twisting motions, up/down and side to side. Maybe that's a more appropriate lock test. I'd hope most of us could wrap our minds around that since nothing but downward slow and steady force or fast and shocking loads are hard for people to grasp the necessity of.

Not at all. I purchased a custom AD-15 from him earlier this year. I would however question the integrity of Lynn Thompson, the owner of Cold Steel. I don't know him personally but I've read enough on the these forums to make me wonder. I agree with the poster above that Andrew made a mistake by selling his name with Cold Steel. Have you ever owned a Sebenza or any CRK folder?

 

[bodog]

Not at all. I purchased a custom AD-15 from him earlier this year. I would however question the integrity of Lynn Thompson, the owner of Cold Steel. I don't know him personally but I've read enough on the these forums to make me wonder. I agree with the poster above that Andrew made a mistake by selling his name with Cold Steel. Have you ever owned a Sebenza or any CRK folder?

I would tend to agree with Demko staking his career on cold steel. Demko actually seems like a decent guy from what I've seen and he's the only legitimate thing cold steel has going for it. I don't like what I've read about lynn Thompson either. This isn't about whether I like cold steel or CRK or anyone else. I brought those tests up simply to show why someone should at least give some perfunctory attention to lock tests or don't buy a locking knife at all. At the very least if someone doesn't need a lock they shouldn't deride someone who does, for whatever reason or hypothetical situation.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

 

[craytab]

I would tend to agree with Demko staking his career on cold steel. Demko actually seems like a decent guy from what I've seen and he's the only legitimate thing cold steel has going for it. I don't like what I've read about lynn Thompson either. This isn't about whether I like cold steel or CRK or anyone else. I brought those tests up simply to show why someone should at least give some perfunctory attention to lock tests or don't buy a locking knife at all. At the very least if someone doesn't need a lock they shouldn't deride someone who does, for whatever reason or hypothetical situation.

So is that a no?

 

[Peter Hartwig]

If spine whacking a knife gives you confidence in the lock, that's fine, but I would be careful it didn't give you over confidence. Folding knives fold and any lock can fail. It is still up to you to protect those fingers. Thinking you have a folding fixed blade could lead to disaster.

 

[trevitrace]

Kick it again!

 

[bodog]

Gotta love the fact that you use actual death photos as a punchline. *sarcasm* Maybe my up close and personal experience with dead things and people has made me appreciate not making a joke of suffering and death.

Back to kicking the dead horse.

 

[T. Erdelyi]

You'll notice I took my own advice. The good thing is I can't remember the last time I asked someone to borrow their knife so I'm worried about the integrity of the lock. If I ever do borrow a knife to perform a spine-whack test, I'll make sure to inquire about the owners views on the validity of those tests and if they performed them on the knife I was about to spine-whack.

 

[GREENJACKET]

bodog,
I just put out my findings and my experience of what I've found generally, and what works for me. I think other readers will take or leave what I say and make their own judgement on how useful they find my comments.

I don't think the Spine Whacking Test is that particularly useful when evaluating any particular folding knife. Just proves it can or can't pass that test. There is a lot more to choosing a folder than if it can or can't pass that test. For the vast majority of folders and the way they are used it really isn't important and the test is pretty meaningless. If choosing a folder and one of the priorities is to have a vault like lock which must pass such a test then fine. The rest of the build is just as important. It also doesn't mean a knife that doesn't pass is a bad knife, far from it.

Cobalt made a very good comment about expectations now are for every folder to have some vault like lock that can never fail. Its a dangerous expectation to have and an idea pushed hard by those with an interest to do so. People will get hurt because they will believe that locks don't fail. That is in no ones interest. Its why I stated that just like a safety catch on a gun shouldn't be relied on nor should any lock on a folder. As a generalisation its a pretty good one to have.
I have good locking knives, and have forty years experience using them. I have had most lock types over the years too. My call but I don't trust any lock. You can if you want, thats your call, and if passing a spine whacking test you find helpful then great.

I've also spent enough time in the security industry to know what works for highly trained security personnel is as often as not a liability for joe public. Basic simple stuff works better. As for knives for security they are very specialised and hazardous. But thats for another thread/time.

 

[bodog]

bodog,
I just put out my findings and my experience of what I've found generally, and what works for me. I think other readers will take or leave what I say and make their own judgement on how useful they find my comments.

I don't think the Spine Whacking Test is that particularly useful when evaluating any particular folding knife. Just proves it can or can't pass that test. There is a lot more to choosing a folder than if it can or can't pass that test. For the vast majority of folders and the way they are used it really isn't important and the test is pretty meaningless. If choosing a folder and one of the priorities is to have a vault like lock which must pass such a test then fine. The rest of the build is just as important. It also doesn't mean a knife that doesn't pass is a bad knife, far from it.

Cobalt made a very good comment about expectations now are for every folder to have some vault like lock that can never fail. Its a dangerous expectation to have and an idea pushed hard by those with an interest to do so. People will get hurt because they will believe that locks don't fail. That is in no ones interest. Its why I stated that just like a safety catch on a gun shouldn't be relied on nor should any lock on a folder. As a generalisation its a pretty good one to have.
I have good locking knives, and have forty years experience using them. I have had most lock types over the years too. My call but I don't trust any lock. You can if you want, thats your call, and if passing a spine whacking test you find helpful then great.

I've also spent enough time in the security industry to know what works for highly trained security personnel is as often as not a liability for joe public. Basic simple stuff works better. As for knives for security they are very specialised and hazardous. But thats for another thread/time.

The same thing could be said of any test of any knife. One single strong point or one single weak point shouldn't make or break a single knife. Rather, it should be a sum of the parts. But we shouldn't disparage those who seek to actually quantify the strengths and weaknesses of any single part, either. After all, all of those singles do factor into the equation and add or detract from the whole.

For me, a lock has to be reliable and moderately strong. It doesn't have to be the strongest. And it needs to disengage with one hand. And it needs to come from a decent, ie, honest, company. And it needs to have a good steel with the right geometry and a good heat treatment. And it needs to be comfortable to hold and use. And it needs to made of decent materials. And it needs to be at a reasonable price point for the materials and work put into that is relative to what else is on the market. Any other fluff doesn't matter to me at all.

And what's funny is that I don't even want nor need a super strong folding knife with some unfailing locking mechanism. I just need reliability and to feel like I got something substantial for my money. But I do really see the value in trying to pinpoint weakness and then improving it. I really don't like back locks and the supposed strongest on the market is, duh duh duuuh... a back lock. I don't care. Still won't buy one for the lock alone. I can and do carry fixed blades for rough work when it comes and I carry a folder for detailed slicing type jobs. All of this to say that I can see a reason why someone tests locks and wants strong locks. It's valid. Whether I specifically need it or not is irrelevant. Some people do and that's enough. Just trying to be fair is all. Some people, not necessarily you, lambast others for their different needs and wants. I don't agree with that mentality and it's way too prevalent here on BF.


*Sometimes you don't know what you don't know and sometimes they don't know what they don't know so we should all come together and share our knowledge and experience to learn what we don't know and grow as a community**

 

[johnnytoxin]

I would tend to agree with Demko staking his career on cold steel. Demko actually seems like a decent guy from what I've seen and he's the only legitimate thing cold steel has going for it. I don't like what I've read about lynn Thompson either. This isn't about whether I like cold steel or CRK or anyone else. I brought those tests up simply to show why someone should at least give some perfunctory attention to lock tests or don't buy a locking knife at all. At the very least if someone doesn't need a lock they shouldn't deride someone who does, for whatever reason or hypothetical situation.

Those tests provide no real world information whatsoever. There are many members on this forum (myself included) who have used and carried their CRK's extensively with no issues. And if you needed the worlds strongest lock for self defense purposes as some have argued, the obvious choice would be a fixed blade. That's just my opinion. Have a nice day.

 

[bodog]

Those tests provide no real world information whatsoever. There are many members on this forum (myself included) who have used and carried their CRK's extensively with no issues. And if you needed the worlds strongest lock for self defense purposes as some have argued, the obvious choice would be a fixed blade. That's just my opinion. Have a nice day.

See my last post

 

[GREENJACKET]

bodog, we are not far apart on this or for that matter most, just fine tuning. All the comments add to the picture and its good we put our take out there.

Testing has its place. Progress has to be made and some testing required. Doesn't even have to be very scientific. If joe public can find a way to break something they will. The trick is to make it more difficult for them; and I'm one and break the best efforts regularly.

I quite like backlocks, done well they are fine. Linerlocks, framelocks, doesn't matter, they all come with their own pros and cons. When done well most are sufficient if not pretty great. They can all be done badly too.

 

[The cow]

Its a test that does not truly prove anything. But people fetishize "hard use" folders and makers happily oblige with ,25" thick prybars so people with too much spare money can feel cool claiming they batoned with a folder.
The closest thing I get to a spine wack is putting a lot of thumb pressure on the blade to see if the lock will fail to date, a CRKT and the DPX HEST are the only to fail that test.

 

[Sosa]

The retardation of innovation.