Spine Whacks and Lock Strength

[ursamajor]

I felt like logic was falling on deaf ears so I tried sarcasm to stress the point that 1.) Spine whack tests are (like bataning) given far too much weight (especially by those who parrot more than they actually cut) and 2.) There are obviously other real world tests you can perform to ensure a knife won't fail under normal use.

Now, are spine-whack tests fun and somewhat impressive? Sure. Are they they the end-all test by which you should judge a folding knife? No (but when it's the only test you happen to be winning at, you'd probably go through great lengths to weight that test above all else... maybe even making up stories, or coming up with scenarios that defy science and logic)...

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better thread than this one where the inferiority complex comes out so strong that a manufacturer would call out other manufacturers "who don't provide proof" and folks start making up stories and using generalizations to try and discredit entire manufacturers knives as "little toys".

Do Spyderco knives fail? Of course. Is that failure rate higher than Cold steel's failure rate? I'd love to see some real numbers on that subject to be honest.

Cars are designed to be driven and crashes occur often. How often (among quality manufacturers) do lock failures occur in folders? If it's nearly as minuscule as I think it is compared to car crashes, then my Duke Boys point is valid and the seatbelt comment is entirely Red Herring.

Serious question for the folks who put so much into lock strength. If Cold Steel didn't have the Tri-Ad lock (and had to rely on back-locks, frame locks, and God forbid, liner locks), would you still be such a die hard fan?

they would still have the Ramlock. But that is irrelevant, because they do have the Triad lock. With that being said, I have not heard of an epidemic of people losing fingers to slip joints, so why was the the locking folder invented? Just a gimmick?

As for "Hard-Use" Folders-and it seems that ZT is the biggest offender here, the strength of the lock is important. The beefed up hard users boast strength, and there are many here that lap it up. So if they are found to have a weakness, why apologize for them, and over look it. It gives them no incentive to step their game up. Right now, Cold Steel has the strongest lock in the business. Why wouldn't they play it up.

Here is a secret, every knife manufacturer is in the business of making money, and values money over their knives. If they valued their knives over money, then they would not sell them. Lynn may be brash, but he sells a crap ton of knives, and that is the whole point of what everyone wants to do.

Lynn issues brash challenges, and others make false claims of military activity. Sad that many people prefer the lying predator over the confident salesman.

 

[Jaytaylor]

Lynn issues brash challenges, and others make false claims of military activity. Sad that many people prefer the lying predator over the confident salesman.

Cant believe this one is still alive and kicking (this thread just to clarify things)

I need to back up and read from many pages ago.

In the meantime a couple of Q's

Is Lynn male or female - reason being Lynn is a female name in UK, Aussie and NZ.

Who makes false claims of military activity? (military activity or military use of knives??)

 

[singularity35]

Sounds like discussion isn't really as important as defending an ideology here, so I'll bow out.

Cheers.

It is a discussion all right. It's 2 sides presenting their opinions and neither being convinced by the other side's presentation. There's no need to get snarky when people are not accepting your opinion as gospel.

I felt like logic was falling on deaf ears so I tried sarcasm to stress the point...

So you went ahead and included your "prejudicing the jury"...or would you rather call that a "random potshot"?

I felt like logic was falling on deaf ears so I tried sarcasm to stress the point that 1.) Spine whack tests are (like bataning) given far too much weight (especially by those who parrot more than they actually cut) and 2.) There are obviously other real world tests you can perform to ensure a knife won't fail under normal use.

And now, I too, bow out.

 

[Jaytaylor]

It is a discussion all right. It's 2 sides presenting their opinions and neither being convinced by the other side's presentation. There's no need to get snarky when people are not accepting your opinion as gospel.

So you went ahead and included your "prejudicing the jury"...or would you rather call that a "random potshot"?

And now, I too, bow out.

Pot calling the kettle black - Troll post followed by snark -

Maybe people are so mad about spine whack tests because their ultra expensive ultra trendy knives don't pass them (much of the time). I don't think cold steel's marketing is very cool, but their products are strong. Stronger than many knives 10x the price. Back locks etc (triad), bolt action locks etc (axis) are simply stronger locks. And don't even say "a knife is for cutting, that's all you should do with it" if that were true we would only have sheepsfoot blades or blunted tips. Many things need to be pierced to be cut. Piercing puts pressure on the spine. I want a lock that won't guillotine my fingers.

Hehehe, yeh. They're probably afraid of hurting their "tanks".

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

they would still have the Ramlock. But that is irrelevant, because they do have the Triad lock. With that being said, I have not heard of an epidemic of people losing fingers to slip joints, so why was the the locking folder invented? Just a gimmick?

As for "Hard-Use" Folders-and it seems that ZT is the biggest offender here, the strength of the lock is important. The beefed up hard users boast strength, and there are many here that lap it up. So if they are found to have a weakness, why apologize for them, and over look it. It gives them no incentive to step their game up. Right now, Cold Steel has the strongest lock in the business. Why wouldn't they play it up.

Here is a secret, every knife manufacturer is in the business of making money, and values money over their knives. If they valued their knives over money, then they would not sell them. Lynn may be brash, but he sells a crap ton of knives, and that is the whole point of what everyone wants to do.

Lynn issues brash challenges, and others make false claims of military activity. Sad that many people prefer the lying predator over the confident salesman.

ZT sure does have some beefy knives, but you have to take into account that their framelocks, like many, have that milled out portion. Since that has less material, it generally means less strength. How strong is it really? I don't know, but if any abuse comes to a frame lock in that way, the milled out framelocks will break (or should) at the part that is milled out, since it is the weakest point. I have seen some ZT0200s get beaten on light spine whacks. It doesn't mean that the knife isn't tough. I haven't handled these knives, but from what I saw, it looked like the liner lock bar and tang face were not fully flush together (yet). I think that if the liner and the tang were to wear together over time, the lock might actually be stronger in this case. It still would be interesting to see these blades (including the benchmade adamas) locked open and subjected to hang tests and spine whacks, just to see how much they could take.

 

[singularity35]

Pot calling the kettle black - Troll post followed by snark -

Hehehe, yeh. They're probably afraid of hurting their "tanks".

Not really snark, but amusedly wondering why some "tank" owners might be afraid of the spine whack test. I know I am, as I posted in my reply to your other thread where you accused me of brand bashing but weren't able to prove what brand you think I was bashing.

There is no brand bashing coming from me, there is just the acknowledgement that I fear my more expensive framelocks cannot handle a test of lock strength(whether you think it relevant or not) that a less expensive knife can breeze through. I also find that the people who look down their noses at spinewhacks and overstrikes are very defensive about their knives and will easily take offense at the suggestion that their "tanks" will not be able to handle these "tests".

Took you a while for you to think you caught me in a contradiction, didn't it?

This one is a gem, full of sugar and spice and everything nice. Second post in the thread too.

So what this tells us is that cold steel knives are right up there with cheap knives and gerber.

A slip joint would "fail" this pointless test but that successful design has been in use for more than 2000 years.

I use a hammer for hammering, a pry bar for prying, a screw driver for screwing and a knife for cutting, it's so simple it's genius.

 

[Jaytaylor]

Not really snark, but amusedly wondering why some "tank" owners might be afraid of the spine whack test. I know I am, as I posted in my reply to your other thread where you accused me of brand bashing but weren't able to prove what brand you think I was bashing.



Took you a while for you to think you caught me in a contradiction, didn't it?

I recently read through the last few pages and thought I'd make the effort, if that does not meet your reply time expectations, tough.

We will have to disagree about the snark, IMO it is snark and the facts are there for all to see and you have contradicted yourself whatever you may think.

Also, if you care to re-read my post it was plural, whilst I quoted you with the intension of including you it was addressed as guys.

Brand bashing? You and I both know what you were referring to. Whilst not directly naming brands your fixation on "tank" is a mocking reference to the phrase "built like a tank" with the focus on frame locks.

As any regular here will know, that phrase is most commonly used to describe frame locks from two companies, one of which is a forum sponsor.

If you want to question the frame lock strength of the brands you are indirectly referring to please post up on the appropriate forum where the employees and owner/knife maker will address you concerns/amusement.

 

[singularity35]

I recently read through the last few pages and thought I'd make the effort, if that does not meet your reply time expectations, tough.

We will have to disagree about the snark, IMO it is snark and the facts are there for all to see and you have contradicted yourself whatever you may think.

Also, if you care to re-read my post it was plural, whilst I quoted you with the intension of including you it was addressed as guys.

Brand bashing? You and I both know what you were referring to. Whilst not directly naming brands your fixation on "tank" is a mocking reference to the phrase "built like a tank" with the focus on frame locks.

As any regular here will know, that phrase is most commonly used to describe frame locks from two companies, one of which is a forum sponsor.

If you want to question the frame lock strength of the brands you are indirectly referring to please post up on the appropriate forum where the employees and owner/knife maker will address you concerns/amusement.

Still you mentioned the pot calling the kettle black.

Your first post on the thread?

Mirror time maybe?

BTW, you're just being defensive about the "tank" thing. You might want to think that out. Yes, I am referring to framelocks. No, I am not referring to any particular brand. If you think I am, that's a figment of your overheated imagination.

Additionally, I have no problem with framelocks. I like them but I just accept the limitations they have. My wonder was reserved for the owners who had blind faith in them.

So why did you stop posting about spinewhacks and focus on me?

 

[cziv]

ZT sure does have some beefy knives, but you have to take into account that their framelocks, like many, have that milled out portion. Since that has less material, it generally means less strength. How strong is it really? I don't know, but if any abuse comes to a frame lock in that way, the milled out framelocks will break (or should) at the part that is milled out, since it is the weakest point. I have seen some ZT0200s get beaten on light spine whacks. It doesn't mean that the knife isn't tough. I haven't handled these knives, but from what I saw, it looked like the liner lock bar and tang face were not fully flush together (yet).

I wouldn't worry about a ZT's lockbar strength. :thumbup:

[video=youtube;Kyl2CGb2N38]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyl2CGb2N38[/video]

 

[B.F.U]

Pot calling the kettle black - Troll post followed by snark -

Wait, wait. How was my quote a "troll post"? I feel like I've stayed pretty level throughout this.

 

[stabman]

As for "Hard-Use" Folders-and it seems that ZT is the biggest offender here, the strength of the lock is important.

I find the blade to be even more important than the lock for hard-use (however one defines that).
The ZT's I have have very stout blades that have held up to every dumb thing I've used them for. The lock was not an issue.

Nor was the lock (regular back-lock) on my original Cold Steel Tanto Voyager (5 inch blade). Once again, the blade was the most important thing here, whether cutting, scraping, or---lightly---prying.

To emphasize one feature overly is to miss the bigger picture.

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

I wouldn't worry about a ZT's lockbar strength. :thumbup:

[video=youtube;Kyl2CGb2N38]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyl2CGb2N38[/video]

That video didn't show a lot of stress put on the lockbar itself, but on the pivot. I haven't looked for it and I am not sure it exists, but if you had a video of someone batoning with it, the lockbar probably would break. If it did break (my point here) it would break ath the weakest point, which is the milled out area on the lock bar.

 

[Ankerson]

That video didn't show a lot of stress put on the lockbar itself, but on the pivot. I haven't looked for it and I am not sure it exists, but if you had a video of someone batoning with it, the lockbar probably would break. If it did break (my point here) it would break ath the weakest point, which is the milled out area on the lock bar.

That's a ZT 0301, a Ti frame lock, I seriously doubt it would break that easy.....

I personally tested the heck out of the ZT 0301 and it never missed a beat.


Here are two frame locks, ZT 0301 and Strider SMF RW-1, well designed frame locks are very strong.

[video=youtube;T51UfbfUXlU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T51UfbfUXlU[/video]

[video=youtube;4i_vACyL5IY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i_vACyL5IY[/video]

 

[MisterXY]

The Tri Ad lock brings its own problems though, no its not perfect. Anyone ever heard of them being referred too as the guillotine lock? Upon closing the knife when it gets down to the last inch or so the spring reengages and will pull the knife closed the rest of the way. Quite firmly. If your not used to it , it can take the tips of your fingers off.

Haha happend already to me when I had my first Tri Ad Lock knife. Now I hold onto the thumb pin or spine when I close the knife. The damn thing hacked half the tip of my pinky off.

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

That's a ZT 0301, a Ti frame lock, I seriously doubt it would break that easy.....

I personally tested the heck out of the ZT 0301 and it never missed a beat.


Here are two frame locks, ZT 0301 and Strider SMF RW-1, well designed frame locks are very strong.

[video=youtube;T51UfbfUXlU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T51UfbfUXlU[/video]

[video=youtube;4i_vACyL5IY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i_vACyL5IY[/video]

I saw those vids before. I am not calling the knife weak, but still, the weakest point is the milled out area. I had a 0200 actually, I had 2. I sold one and traded one. But, a 0301 that looks like a whole different beast. I think there should be some sort of lock testing standards. Reason I say this is because, Spyderco has their way of testing and measuring, CS/Demko have their way, and others have some ways also. Benchmade said their Adamas could take 800lbs of force. But, how is that force being applied? At least everyone would know for sure how the locks compare in exact tests, how much abuse they can take before breaking.

 

[FCM415]

...But then again, to plenty of users, all these brands and their locks are more than sufficient for what they intend to do with their knives which is cut and slice. Not that setting up a standard for measuring is a bad idea per se, but I think there is only a few if not just one brand that would be motivated to put the effort in setting one up... You know, ones who like to prove their locks are the strongest and who cater to those who spine whack for recreation.

I really like the Voyager and can trust it with my life and all that good stuff (as I do with most all of my folders), but I believe in utilizing the right tool for the right job. If s#!7 hit the fan and all I have is a folder, why in the world would I risk breaking my only cutting tool aka knife by using it as a prybar etc., things that even the box Cold Steel knives come in says it shouldn't do. Again, not knocking the spine whackers, just something I simply don't do with my knives...For what? If my life depended on having to whack a folding knife I'll do it, but its not at the top of my priorities when shopping for folders. Has anyone died yet from a folder failing them on the field? Any documented cases? Any tall tales? I bet people get hurt more by MISUSE of knives through recreational "testing"... I let the companies do the testing.

I honestly feel like all of my folders can last me a lifetime. I do not consider any of them to be toys. A testing standard I feel is quite unnecessary... Ok, if it is a CONTEST and the triad lock wins out (which it will I suppose), what does that tell me? That my trusty Spyderco Stretch that has served me well for all these years and never failed me is now crap? Yeahhh OK...

 

[Ankerson]

...But then again, to plenty of users, all these brands and their locks in question feel that they are more than sufficient for what they intend to do with their knives which is cut and slice. Not that setting up a standard for measuring is a bad idea per se, but I think there is only a few if not just one brand that would be motivated to put the effort in setting one up... You know, ones who like to prove their locks are the strongest and who cater to those who spine whack for recreation.

I really like the Voyager and can trust it with my life and all that good stuff (as I do would with most all of my folders) , but I believe in utilizing the right tool for the right job. If s#!7 hit the fan and all I have is a folder, why in the world would I risk breaking my only cutting tool aka knife by using it as a prybar etc., things that even the box Cold Steel knives come in says it shouldn't do. Again, not knocking the spine whackers, just something I simply don't do with my knives...For what? If my life depended on having to whack a folding knife I'll do it, but its not at the top of my priorities when shopping for folders. Has anyone died yet from a folder failing them on the field? Any documented cases? Any tall tales? I bet people get hurt more by MISUSE of knives through recreational "testing"... I let the companies do the testing.

I honestly feel like all of my folders can last me a lifetime. I do not consider any of them to be toys. A testing standard I feel is quite unnecessary... Ok, if it is a CONTEST and the triad lock wins out (which it will I suppose), what does that tell me? That my trusty Spyderco Stretch that has served me well for all these years and never failed me is now crap? Yeahhh OK...

Not sure about the recreational spine whackers... And or why they would do it as there is plenty of information out there already.

What I think is funny are the people who flick their knives so much they wear out the locks before the knife even needs to be sharpened the 1st time.

And then start a thread about blade play issues etc......

 

[FCM415]

What makes a standardized testing more absurd is, no knives from different companies will be exactly the same, the only way locks can be tested evenly is if companies build a folder exactly the same which is pointless.

Are we supposed to create an imaginary benchmark to say THIS is how strong a folder should be? I can imagine it already... As if "overbuilt" knives aren't already a popular trend.

As far as locks, a triad lock by physics alone will be stronger than a standard lock back, what will we be proving by these tests that isn't already known? Are we that stupid that we have to test something that is already tested? And pit one against another in a Mortal Kombat of tolerances?

Let's just let these supposed stronger knives and locks shine on their own for crying out loud.

 

[Ankerson]

What makes a standardized testing more absurd is, no knives from different companies will be exactly the same, the only way locks can be tested evenly is if companies build a folder exactly the same which is pointless.

Are we supposed to create an imaginary benchmark to say THIS is how strong a folder should be? I can imagine it already... As if "overbuilt" knives aren't already a popular trend.

As far as locks, a triad lock by physics alone will be stronger than a standard lock back, what will we be proving by these tests that isn't already known? Are we that stupid that we have to test something that is already tested? And pit one against another in a Mortal Kombat of tolerances?

Let's just let these supposed stronger knives and locks shine on their own for crying out loud.

That's why I say that spine tapping is a good test to perform from time to time to make sure that the locks on the knives that are in use are still within specs..

Let the knife testers and companies do the real testing.

 

[338375]

...But then again, to plenty of users, all these brands and their locks are more than sufficient for what they intend to do with their knives which is cut and slice. Not that setting up a standard for measuring is a bad idea per se, but I think there is only a few if not just one brand that would be motivated to put the effort in setting one up... You know, ones who like to prove their locks are the strongest and who cater to those who spine whack for recreation.

I really like the Voyager and can trust it with my life and all that good stuff (as I do with most all of my folders), but I believe in utilizing the right tool for the right job. If s#!7 hit the fan and all I have is a folder, why in the world would I risk breaking my only cutting tool aka knife by using it as a prybar etc., things that even the box Cold Steel knives come in says it shouldn't do. Again, not knocking the spine whackers, just something I simply don't do with my knives...For what? If my life depended on having to whack a folding knife I'll do it, but its not at the top of my priorities when shopping for folders. Has anyone died yet from a folder failing them on the field? Any documented cases? Any tall tales? I bet people get hurt more by MISUSE of knives through recreational "testing"... I let the companies do the testing.

I honestly feel like all of my folders can last me a lifetime. I do not consider any of them to be toys. A testing standard I feel is quite unnecessary... Ok, if it is a CONTEST and the triad lock wins out (which it will I suppose), what does that tell me? That my trusty Spyderco Stretch that has served me well for all these years and never failed me is now crap? Yeahhh OK...

It always cracks me up when I read of people wanting a knife to get them through anything, especially in a s.h.t.f situation...
I know things can happen, but I have to think that probably 95% of these people will never venture more than 100 feet from a road, and camp in r.v's.
I've spent countless hours over my 52 years, in the woods, hunting and camping. A lot of my hunting has been deep in wilderness areas, and in horrid winter weather conditions. I have always carried at least two fixed blade knives, along with one or two folders with me. Just in case...

I have never really thought about testing lock strength in the past. But, most of my folders have been Axis locks, or Triads. After reading this thread, I have grown more "tolerant" of the spine whacking. I have to give credit to Ankerson for this, because he makes his point clearly, and rationally.

I still don't know if I will ever check any of my knives, but I do know that I will never beat one into submission on cinder blocks like some do, too see if it fails.